Remington R51

Just so long as it has a porpoise --eh? eh? wacka-wacka!

Only with a Killer Whale paint scheme

TCB

barnbwt said:

I will try to do a real *deep breath* tear down of the FCG next week. I took apart and reassembled a CZ52 without slave pins, I think I can do this with slave pins... still a little nervous, though . I fully expect much to be revealed about the gun's issues; the disconnector binding and stirrup flex/dragging laid bare. Anything in particular ya'll would like me to try and look into? Again, I'm not a gunsmith, but I'm pretty good at figgerin' out mechanical stuff as simple as gun bits.

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Take plenty of pictures, and we'll do a schematic. I've been told I'm a fairly good technical illustrator.

barnbwt said:

Just so long as it has a porpoise --eh? eh? wacka-wacka!

Only with a Killer Whale paint scheme

TCB

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Nice Barnbwt.

Finally got around to disassembling and cleaning mine today. I don't think I have ever bought a new gun that was filled with as much greasey gunk! Even the Italian cap & ball revolvers I buy for hobby which are covered with preservative oil are cleaner.
Ick. Cleaned it out and applied Hope's oil to strategic spots.
Had a bit of trouble removing the barrel, recoil spring and that funky collar thingie as well as replacing those. Turned out I have to watch how the spring meets the front of the slide -- the barrel can hang up there.


Oh well, atleast now it's cleaned out and oiled and back together, and guess what?
No left over parts!

Tommygunn said:

Cleaned it out and applied Hope's oil to strategic spots.

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I have been lubricating the gun with synthetic grease. I put a film of grease on all the areas that show some wear and areas that I think are sliding. It has worked well for me and has smoothed out the slide action some.

Tommygunn said:

Had a bit of trouble removing the barrel, recoil spring and that funky collar thingie as well as replacing those. Turned out I have to watch how the spring meets the front of the slide -- the barrel can hang up there.

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It took me a while to get a method that worked for me without tearing up my fingers. After I pull the slide stop, I do not let the slide return, grabbing the barrel and immediately remove the slide from the frame.

Before releasing the barrel, i remove the firing pin group. I usually use something to lift the firing pin group out of the slide. It has to be towards the rear of the slide to remove.

Then, you have to reposition your hands to retract the return spring sleeve to allow for removal of the barrel. There are some reliefs cut in the slide to facilitate removing the barrel and then the sleeve.

Hope this helps.

I just ran a couple hundred rounds of 115gr FMJ downrange with mine. Worked fine, one failure to chamber, tap, solved, bang. Considering the R51 is mostly conceived as a SD handgun, I find it's shootability and accuracy remarkable.

Cool, cool, cool...

I think if we can get some guns running truly reliable, this gun will actually be pretty formidable in competition (stuff relying on fast split times, specifically).

"Nice."
Yeah, the shark 'shop has been up for a while, now. I still think it is legitimately cool as hell, though that is admittedly the 12 year old part of my brain. (Obviously) wouldn't do it for a carry piece, but for a race gun I think it'd be hilarious .

"Perhaps a more likely vent would be the loaded chamber view hole. Would probably look something like a whale breeching. "Thar she blows!, Cap'n" "
I actually forgot about that hole, and I'm certain you are right. Also, I had my mental image wrong; the breach/bolt split is a 1/4" back form the ejection port, so gas would probably go down, same as most all handguns. Got me wondering if notching the indicator hole into the ejection port and cutting some shallow "gas channels" into the walls of the slide around the chamber there would actually help route some of the gasses upward/outward where they are less likely to blow the mag out & into the shooter's hand. Do you think it'd whistle?

Took the gun apart for cleaning again (haven't fired it since earlier, just a crapton of racking/dry fire) and it is still shedding metal, just in the form of black dust mixed in the grease rather than straight up filings. Be sure to keep cleaning those guns occasionally; the break-in period appears to span multiple oil changes

TCB

Took the gun apart for cleaning again (haven't fired it since earlier, just a crapton of racking/dry fire) and it is still shedding metal, just in the form of black dust mixed in the grease rather than straight up filings. Be sure to keep cleaning those guns occasionally; the break-in period appears to span multiple oil changes

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Other than a couple of new wear marks showing up on the locking ledge after the range, I'm not seeing any undue wear. I haven't seen (or felt) any metal shavings. I thought I had some crap in the firing pin channel jamming the firing pin, but it turned out to be a burr on the pin around the relief cut for the retaining pin.

The hand cycling seems to be wear polishing rather than wear fitting.

cfullgraf said:

I have been lubricating the gun with synthetic grease. I put a film of grease on all the areas that show some wear and areas that I think are sliding. It has worked well for me and has smoothed out the slide action some.

Click to expand...

I may try that in the future. I used Hoppe's oil because the instructions said oil .... and I don't think I have any grease right now anyway.

cfullgraf said:

It took me a while to get a method that worked for me without tearing up my fingers. After I pull the slide stop, I do not let the slide return, grabbing the barrel and immediately remove the slide from the frame.

Before releasing the barrel, i remove the firing pin group. I usually use something to lift the firing pin group out of the slide. It has to be towards the rear of the slide to remove.

Then, you have to reposition your hands to retract the return spring sleeve to allow for removal of the barrel. There are some reliefs cut in the slide to facilitate removing the barrel and then the sleeve.

Hope this helps.

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Thanks for the advice. I didn't have so much problem getting the slide off the real bugger was the trying to figure out (after I'd let go of the barrel, of course ) how to get the recoil collar and barrel out. I did know about the relief cuts....but everything seems to have to be more complicated the first time. Now that I know what it entails I think it'll be easier in the future.
It is a very different gun from what I am used to.

It's mostly anodization wear from the rails as best I can tell (as I said before, I had the gun stripped of lube while doing the grip fitting, which is a kinda stupid thing to do when steel/Al are in contact, hence some wear --gotta keep these things greased to prevent galling). The steel parts are just getting shinier (though I think I'll have to manually grind/polish the bolt, since its shiny but will probably always be a bit pitted from the earlier gouging). I also got some finish wear in front of the disconnector on top of (but not reaching all the way to) the locking wedge sorta like what MAC's crazy gouges looked like; I'm confident at this point the wear here is due to debris being ground between the frame and slide lugs --gotta keep these things clean, at least during break in.

"I used Hoppe's oil because the instructions said oil"
I'm pretty sure the instructions also said the machinists were supposed to polish the damn parts

The trick with the spring bushing/barrel is to snag the bushing in the cuts as low as possible in the slide, then slide the barrel straight back. At that point, the whole mess tilts out. On field strip 20 or so, it doesn't seem all that obnoxious compared to any other action that's not Beretta-simple.

TCB

R51 Overplay ?

Is this the R51 OCD Thread, or what ?

It's more interesting than the caliber war, bear thread, and umpteenth Glock brass-to-face thread I can assume without looking are going on...

TCB

Gun Master said:

Is this the R51 OCD Thread, or what ?

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It's like Sears used to be. Everything you want in one place.

Nick Leghorn is quoted as saying, "...there could be many reasons why [somone] could have issues with the newer gun. It could be an ammunition problem or merely unfamiliarity with the new weapon."

The R51? No, he was talking about the S&W M&P Texas DPS is having problems with.

Granted, the M&P does have a better track record at this point . I personally think Nick/et al's attitudes will adjust when some tuned-up R51's get out into the shooting sports (I assume they qualify for at least some events). A tightened up trigger, polished everything, and a fix for the disconnector hopping I came up with* would make it an incredibly easy gun to practice a ton with, which I assume would translate favorably to the court. But at this point, it has zero rep with competitors, which pretty much all these gun writers are, right? If you think about it, much of their gun discussion is founded in their competitive experience, of which any regarding the Remington is purely theoretical at this time.

TCB

*I'll throw it out there on the off-chance Remington needs inspiration to facilitate their inevitable recall (just gotta pay off that 700 one, first ). Mill a slot in the frame next to the disconnector ear on the right side that extends into the slide rail halfway. Weld a pin onto the disconnector tip that extends out into that slot and can still drop down to disconnect (or replace sheet metal disco with a machined part). Cut a notch on the inside of the slide rail on that side where the gun is fully in battery. Ta-da! Now when the slide is anything but fully back, the disconnector pin is in contact with the continuous slide surface, and the slide pull is probably half what it is now, and way better feeling.

A tightened up trigger, polished everything, and a fix for the disconnector hopping I came up with* would make it an incredibly easy gun to practice a ton with

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The disconnector idea sounds workable. But what would concern me about practicing a ton is the battering the aluminum locking ledge would take from the steel bolt. It has been pointed out quite a few times elsewhere that steel banging against aluminum doesn't seem like a formula for longevity. Really need to keep and eye on that.

Can't know for sure but the only problem I've ever seen with aluminum frame guns (in my limited experience) has been the feed ramps on some particularly soft aluminum 1911's.

If the aluminum has enough bearing surface and is of sufficient hardness it should be OK.

Isn't that right Remington?

JB

Yeah, I've got an aluminum Commander frame that someone decided to tune up and polished the feed ramp to a mirror shine. Right through the anodizing. :banghead:

I was just looking at the lock up of my R51 and it appears that most of the force during initial recoil to lockup is down into the corner of the block and the frame which means the frame is taking part of the force. When the bolt is riding up the face of the block, it is no longer under pressure as the bullet has left the barrel and the camming force is being applied to the top of the bolt by the slide.

barnbwt, when you are looking at the FC group, please confirm that all of that disconnector activity you are trying to eliminate isn't needed to reset the trigger or the sear or the safety. It feels like something is happening in there as the disconnector comes up after its initial contact with the bolt, and if I don't let it release at least once, I can't always get the hammer and sear to engage.

Reading these range reports...

All I can say is I'm glad I wasn't the Guinea pig for Big Green!

R51 Obsessive Compulsive Disorder ?

Gun Master said:

Is this the R51 OCD Thread, or what ?

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Excess within control ?

Gun Master said:

Is this the R51 OCD Thread, or what ?

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Shhhhhhh! Don't say any more that will tip barnbwt and JRH6856 off that we are all involved in an elaborate conspiracy to get them to work out all the bugs so we can be lazy and not do it for ourselves.

Difficult Expenditure of Energy - R51

Nom de Forum said:

Shhhhhhh! Don't say any more that will tip barnbwt and JRH6856 off that we are all involved in an elaborate conspiracy to get them to work out all the bugs so we can be lazy and not do it for ourselves.

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OK ! I won't let the cat out of the bag, when I'm asked about "The B&J Gun Solution Co.".
Don't those guys know they should be charging Remington a ton of dough, working so hard to come up with remedies for the R51 anomalies ?

They obviously are knowledgeable about the subject, but need a good business manager.

Oh, I know ! They're doing it "pro bono" ! (But Remington should be paying through the nose).

I also don't want to answer to Remington if these solutions suck

JRH, I notice the hammer won't disconnect and relatch if the grip safety is released and not depressed again after firing.

As far as frame wear, I am most concerned for the rails. The matte slide finish of the extremely hard nitriding extends into the rails, right in contact with the thin anodizing.

TCB

barnbwt said:

As far as frame wear, I am most concerned for the rails. The matte slide finish of the extremely hard nitriding extends into the rails, right in contact with the thin anodizing.

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I guess I do not understand your concern on the aluminum frame rails in contact with the steel slide.

this arrangement is not unique in the gun world. Guns I own that have aluminum frames include Beretta M84 and M96 (40 S&W cousin of the M92), Sig P238, M1911 Commander and the Remington R51.

The AR-15's bolt rides on aluminum guides in the upper.

There are many other aluminum frame.steel slide guns in production.

My Beretta M84 has somewhere between 3000 and 4000 rounds through it and except for polishing the frame rails removing the color, there is no noticeable wear in the frame rails.

Keep the frame rails well lubricated and the risk of galling and wear from sliding will be greatly reduced if not eliminated.

I will agree that the life of an aluminum frame gun will not be as long as a steel frame gun, but it is still a long life.

Now, there are other issues with an aluminum frame that only time will tell with the R51.

On my Beretta M84, where the slide hits the frame under recoil the frame is peened over. Short term, it makes disassembly difficult as the channel for the guide rod has been reduced in size. long term, I suspect there could be a catastrophic failure of the dust cover at the front of the slide. But again, remember, i have in excess of 3000 rounds through this pistol.

So, with the R51, i would pay attention to the step that stops the bolt under recoil. This is where I might anticipate a problem if one will happen as the slide drives the bolt into this stop with each firing.

So, with the R51, i would pay attention to the step that stops the bolt under recoil. This is where I might anticipate a problem if one will happen as the slide drives the bolt into this stop with each firing.

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Actually at this point, it is the bolt that is driving the slide.The chamber pressure drives the bolt backward and the bolt drives the slide. The bolt is angled downward out of the slide and is stopped by the locking ledge on the frame which locks the breech to allow chamber pressure to drop. The slide continues and recontacts the bolt at the lug on top, camming the bolt front down and raising the rear of the bolt over the locking ledge. Then both bolt and slide continue to the rear.

The main point of impact between frame and slide seems to be in front of the forward rails, as on the 1911.