Remington R51

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Well, that's promising since I invariably find myself holding it about 1/2 blade high. I'll know tomorrow.

FWIW, considering the market placement as a CCW, the intended ammo is probably Remington Ultimate Defense 9mm which is 124g. It should shoot a little higher.

With the centerline of the front sight dot at the top of the rear sight blade, impact was close so you may be good to go.

I have some 124 grain bullets on hand to try.

It is not the gun, I routinely have to make various adjustments with autoloaders to get them to shoot on center. I do not have the same issues with revolvers.

Have fun at the range.
 
To be honest, I think the brown wood doesn't go as well as something dark red or near-black would. With the white metal of the barrel/bushing and the black slide/frame, the brown looks out of place since it is not an industrial texture. I think the right kind of checkering would help, but the showy wood doesn't completely do it for me (I do think it looks better than the originals, but not by a lot). I think this gun would look excellent with carbon fiber or some other 'modern' finish for the panels.

I've got some maroon linen micarta around here somewhere that I picked up for a knife I never made. When/if I find it, I'm gonna give that a try. I'm also thinking about extending the grip panels towards the top to cover that bare space of the frame.
 
Re Remington Support for problems:
I first tried contacting Rem. on line about the rear loose-in-the-dovetail sight and heavy friction/trigger pull if any left pressure is applied.
The warranty section requires a "Choice" on a drop-down menu that DOES NOT LIST the R51.
I emailed to the site address.
1st response: a contact # and "You can expect a response shortly". No further response 3 days.
I emailed again to the Support division asking what I could expect. Relpy was another contact number and "You can expect a response shortly". No response two days.

I emailed again and got "You can expect a pre-paid mailing label to your email address with instructions". 3 days later No Emailed anything.

I finally called the HQ Support section and the automated system didn't have an option for a R-51 Pistol anything. I finally got a human and went throught the contact numbers Yadda yadda. They AGAIN took all my Ser #, purchase date, etc, etc. and said they were "Mailing a pre-post marked box that I was to return the pistol in.

Should be here later today or tomorrow----maybe. 3 weeks+ so far.
P.S. Mine shot to POA within an inch at 10 yards.

I LIKE the pistol and want it to run. I can do the grunt work to smooth it up some, but it has to function before I risk losing the warranty.

I field stripped, cleaned and reoiled the pistol before shooting it. It was LOADED with gunk in every possible crevice.

The trigger IS metal (probably aluminum, lighter & easier to machine). Mine wore most of the outer coating off the left side with 50 rds fired.

All my ammo (three types-range RN & two JHP: 124GDs and XTPs) fed, fired and ejected uniformly. Mags locked back. Everything was super stiff and rough feeling including the grip safety, but did function.
 
The warranty section requires a "Choice" on a drop-down menu that DOES NOT LIST the R51.

Yes, the warranty registration section was lacking in choices or numbers for the R51 as well. It took all the data that they asked for any way.

I guess companies are taking lessons from GM.
 
I LIKE the pistol and want it to run. I can do the grunt work to smooth it up some, but it has to function before I risk losing the warranty.

That is my thought as well. And I would really like to see a full schematic before I start taking it apart. :uhoh:
 
I didn't go beyong the field strip, but it didn't look anywhere near as complicated as a CZ 75or other pistols; but I agree about wanting a full illustrated parts breakdown for those "Uh Oh" moments.
 
Range Report

Back from the range. I had a few problems with a magazine as noted below. Otherwise the gun ran fine. It is soft shooting and recoil is very controllable for a gun of this size and weight—almost as good as my HiPower. Accuracy is good. I can hold 2" at 10 yards if I really try. (I may do better after my next cataract surgery.) 115g shoots low, 124g is dead on. The target on the left is the R51 7 yards, 21 rounds firing as fast as I could. The target on the right is 39 rounds rapid fire from my BHP, same distance.

214 rounds:
50 Rem-UMC 124g FMJ: 2 FTF. These rounds all pass the plunk test
50 Fed American Eagle 115g: 3 FTF, 1 FTE. Plunk OK lands engrave slightly.
100 MBC 9Cone 125g /4g W231: 4 FTF, COL 1.090 Plunk PASS.
14 MBC 9Cone 124g /5.6g PP: 5 FTF 2 FTE, COL. 1.125 Plunk FAIL, lands heavily engraved. These are +P low pressure loads. *

All FTFs in the first 200 rounds were with the same magazine. I'll have to take a look at that one. The other mag was fine except on the last 14 rounds where it had two of the FTFs. All of the FTFs took the same form, with the bullet nosediving into the feed ramp. A sharp rap on the butt of the magazine cause all but two to feed. On these two, I had to drop the mag as the nose of the bullet was caught under the front lip of the mag. Both of these were with the Fed AE.

The cases all show the scuff marks from the rough chamber walls that seem to be a signature of this pistol. The primers of the first 200 rounds were normal except for a "pimple with a dimple" where the metal fire formed around the firing pin and firing pin hole. On the 14 +P loads, the dimple was gone and the pimple somewhat flattened. I'm taking that as a pressure sign for now. ETA, These 14 loads were actually low pressure loads so I guess the flattened pimples are a sign of underpressure.. Otherwise, there were no bulged primers or bulged cases.

On cleaning, I saw nothing out of the ordinary. I found no metal shavings and only one new wear mark on the frame. Grip screws and sights stayed tight and in place, as did all of the pins. i'll check the problem child mag tonight, but I suspect a sticky follower which a littel silicone will take care of.

All in all, I'm happy.

* I should have known I would just confuse myself using a "-P" notation when I loaded them. :banghead:
 

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Cool, JRH, sounds almost exactly like what I found.

"It is soft shooting and recoil is very controllable for a gun of this size and weight—almost as good as my HiPower."
I know, right? I had them side by side and it was very similar

"On these two, I had to drop the mag as the nose of the bullet was caught under the front lip of the mag."
I know, right? I had the same issue with hollow points @ a 20% failure rate

"The cases all show the scuff marks from the rough chamber walls that seem to be a signature of this pistol. The primers of the first 200 rounds were normal except for a "pimple with a dimple" where the metal fire formed around the firing pin and firing pin hole."
I know, right? Tula's showed less pimpling...no dimpling :D

We need to get Remington's marketing guys busy labeling the "fluted chamber," "primer ignition indicator," and "hollow point sorter" features for the ad-copies :neener:

TCB
 
115g shoots low, 124g is dead on.

Good to know. I will be loading some 124 RNs before my next shooting session.

I noticed with the FMJRN that I am shooting in the R51 that with a COL of 1.13, the nose of the bullet gets real close to the front of the magazine. I can see this could cause feeding problems particularly with hollow points or truncated cone bullets.

I am not having trouble feeding from the magazine so I am not planning any changes to the magazines. But, I could see, the lip on the front magazine wall could be lowered a little to allow for bullets to clear it.

Reloading cases fired from an R51 has not been addressed. On a Hornady L-N-L, the "pimple" makes getting the case into the shell plate difficult. There is no relief cut in the base under the shell plate.

The standard shell holder for a single stage press and the Dillon SDB have a small relief cut in the area where the primer is which allows the "pimple" to clear.

I forgot to look at the Pro2000 and I do not have a Dillon 550 or 650.

Otherwise, no issues resizing the cases.
 
Nick Leghorn took to the web again today, to say only "See, I was right" it seems...

I like his gun rights articles, but he's out of his depth in reviewing guns that aren't objectively perfect (which is why his review was mostly subjective stuff, BS speculation, and mysterious slide bite and trigger issues that ail few others). I also notice that few, if any, of his criticisms --even the legitimate ones-- come up in the video. Hardly 'confirmation' or 'validation'

I suggest folks who understand guns watch the MAC review Nick cites (which btw, cites Nick as well :p) and have a notepad ready. Many issues with the review's subject matter. Stuff like the original Model 51 having a gritty slide (bull) to the R51 being far worse, to the (same) R51 being "smooth" and easily racked with his index finger later in the video. Oh, he brought up the loose rear sight again, even though he was not reviewing that gun. I'm pretty sure it's the only 'serious problem' he was able to diagnose. Other than that, it was a lot of "I'm not sure's" and "I don't know about this's." Even with the bound-slide R51 he burned initially and the smooth-racking T&E guy in his hands, he couldn't be bothered to compare them side by side and show the difference. Oh, and he was terrified and shaking like a leaf the whole shooting session. So frightened of the gun exploding he forgot to wear gloves. I think Nick Leghorn is the only guy who has lost a drop of blood to the gun, so far (if that unique/mysterious slide-bite redness managed to break the skin)

The Coop-Di-Greasie was toward the end when he states the Model 51 was a well built and very good gun, but that the Pedersen action is the problem with the R51, and that Remington should have gone with a Browning design instead when they revived it*. --As if that was even an option! Totally ignorant and dismissive of how firearms operate or how products are designed. The firearm "action" is the firearm. That's like trying to replace the unripe tomato in your sandwich with an Orangutan; they're both orange, but that's about it, and one isn't shaped like the other. I am a design engineer, which is why this one really irked me. If someone asked me offhand to "just replace the plane's two props with a single turbofan" because the thrust is the same and the efficiency is higher, I'd throttle them (unless it came with an insane budget to work with :evil:)

But I guess I shouldn't be surprised, nor too judgmental. The more I learn and delve into this stuff (I'm not usually super-enamored with Youtube reviewers, since so many are obnoxious, but I've been obsessed with learning about this gun) the more I realize sites like MAC and TTAG are aimed at Motor Trend audiences; they are used to having perfect products to review with zero legitimate (i.e. mechanical) complaints, and pad out the article with platitudes and subjective criticism for an audience with little technical background. IIRC, Motor Trend (or the CVS equivalent) recently reviewed the Tesla or another all-electric car, and had it die on the launch pad during testing. But instead of speculating about whether the battery's charging voltage control was to blame, thus making the car a dangerous death trap --they sent the thing back, stated the car had an issue that rendered it inoperable, and said they could not recommend the vehicle. Which is all a buyer really needs to know.

Taking the car analogy a bit further, 'cams' are extremely important parts in a car with extremely high production quality. When surfaces roll or scrape across each other under heavy load, there is very little margin for error. But, there is also the potential for incredibly efficient transfer of force and energy when done properly. This is both why the R51 is a brilliant concept with great potential, and why Remington will continue to lose fans so long as they scrimp on the machine work, at least in the most critical areas.

One last note; I hate to sound like a jerk, but TTAG/MAC/Tactical Existence all seem to be referencing each other's reviews, explicity, and all have been firmly set against the pistol from the beginning. Between the early baseless comments, the heavily biased initial reviews, close interaction, and now bold claims the gun is unsafe, despite no actual incidents of unsafe operation in their experience...they just may end up with some collusion/libel issues if they aren't saavy. Random dudes on the internet like me praising/bashing? Who cares. But these guys have had a very demonstrable impact on initial and future R51 sales. I'm not defending Remington's nor Para's incompetence (though the reviewers haven't once mentioned Para), just sayin' the nail(s) that stick up get hammered down when they poke the feet of the big man.

TCB

*I'm pretty sure RIA's, which have been reputed to be the 'poorest' production 1911 these days and have some issues, are made to vastly better standard of machining than the Remington so far, which is more in the league of Century's MAS 49/56 rechambering, and CETME reassembly
 
Oh yeah, "slide bite" It isn't the webbing of my hand getting bit by the tail of the slide, its the the strong thumb that gets rubbed raw by the slide. At least, for lefties like me. Right hand grip, the thumb is protected by the slide stop. Guess it is useful for something after all. :uhoh:

ETA: What was happening is, I injured my left thumb last year and I can't straighten it completely. The resulting bend places the knuckle against the serrations in the slide and it acts like a cheese grater. So it isn't the slide stop protecting my right thumb, it's just that I can straighten it out.
 
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cfullgraf said:
I noticed with the FMJRN that I am shooting in the R51 that with a COL of 1.13, the nose of the bullet gets real close to the front of the magazine. I can see this could cause feeding problems particularly with hollow points or truncated cone bullets.

The 9Cone set a 1.09 is pretty short and it fed great from Mag 1 (the good mag). That lip on the front of the mag seems to be there to push the shorter rounds back under the lips. Longer rounds seem to get have problems. I didn't shoot any hollowpoints today, but Golden Sabre 147g JHPs get hung under the lip when I push them out with my thumb. i have some 115g Sierra JHP handloads that don't have that problem. The GS have a COL of 1.148, the Sierra JHPs are 1.06. I don't think this gun likes long cartridges.

The follower on my 2nd mag was hanging and nosediving. A shot of silicone seems to have cleared that up.

Good to know about the pimple and the shellholders. I'm using a Lee Classic single stage press with Lee dies and the shellholders have the relief cut. I have a friend with a L-N-L. If I get mad at him, I'll give him some of my brass. :evil:
 
"Right hand grip, the thumb is protected by the slide stop. Guess it is useful for something after all."
Yeah, I noticed that the slide is slightly wider than the frame for no reason, and the edge that overhangs (and reciprocates) is very nearly sharp :eek:. I can see that being...uncomfortable in the wrong circumstances.

"Good to know about the pimple and the shellholders."
Aw, crap, I didn't even think about that! I don't reload 9mm yet, but I'll have to come up with a solution, since some of my primers are at least .02" protruding, and I don't think the relief's that big on my other shellholders. Might just dry-fire the shells again before pressing; that'll do it :D. I think the chamber and the firing pin are the two immediate issues Remington needs to address first. The disconnector/slide/cam binding stuff is truly a widespread issue, but it probably more complicated and harder to fix.

MC,
That's the review TTAG was crowing "I told you so" about. Not a bad review, but I don't think technical discussions or troubleshooting are their strong suits. Subjective appraisal of capabilities and demonstrations are more their bailiwick. It's just too bad Remington can't seem to get them a handgun amenable to such endeavors.

TCB
 
If someone already posted this, sorry. I ain't gonna read all 14 pages....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=aTzS4sQfn4U
Let me say this about that:

Rough slide-
Don't try to rack the slide without depressing the grip safety. After 200-300 rounds it really smoothed out for me.

Trigger reset- trigger reset is way overhyped. I don't plan to shoot bowling pins with a SD weapon and shooting pins is about the only time shooting from reset is useful.

Trigger side wobble -
Can probably be fixed with a bushing in the pivot hole, but if you are pushing it to the side, you need to work on your trigger technique. The trigger should move front to rear, so should your finger. Don't push to the side, the trigger won't move to the side. (But I concur that it probably shouldn't anyway.)

Bulged brass casing - back up and notice when the round was chambered, he dropped the slide with by releasing the slide stop. The manual clearly says to slingshot (pull back and release) the slide. Even though he tapped the tail of the slide, the pistol was probablyout of battery because the rim was in front of the extractor (that's why it didn't extract), or it was out of battery because the bullet jammed on the lands IWC, FTE might be due to the case being stuck due to higher pressure. The bulge is there because when in battery, a bit of the case is unsupported over the feed ramp. (think Glock and 40S&W). When OOB, this is exposed even more. But even out of battery, with the Pedersen action, the breedh is still locked. Just the way the action works, it is possiuble to lock the breech out of battery and safely fire the pistol.

FTF nose down into ramp - I had this with one magazine. The other functionend fine with the same ammo.Most of the time, slapping the floor plate harred the round home. When that didn;t work, I found that the bad mag had a sticky follower and the follower itself nosedived and jammed. When this happend, the nose of the bullet jammed under the front lip of the mag. Some dry silicone cleard it up.

Double feed - Haven't seen that one.

Misfire - IF the pistol is too far OOB when you pull the trigger, the hammer hits the slide. This may drive the slide forward and as the hammer follows it is stopped at half-cock. If you pull the trigger again at this point, the sear may lock the hammer requireing a really forceful racking of the slide while depressing the grip safety.

HINT: If you are worried about the pistol blowing up in your hand, at least put on some gloves. But I have to wonder what kind of idiot would continue to shoot a pistol while saying he was afraid it would blow up.

When removing the barrel, pull the barrel to the rear. Then push the bushing forward until it reaches the notch. While holding the bushing (thorugh the ejection port, push the baarrel forward and tilt the busing and barrel up. Then pull the barrel out to the rear. I see you eventually figured it out.

The Pedersen impeded blow-back action is sound, but it is very different from anything most of us have seen. It requires some changes in thinking.

The breechblock locks the breech, but it only actually locks the breech when out of battery. Think about that. With the slide fully home, and the pistol in battery, the breechblock is floating. When recoil drives the slide and block the to the rear, the block is stopped by the frame. after about 0.10" It is only at this point that the breech is locked.

The chamber is tight, and there is no throat. The lands start right at the shoulder where the casemouth headspaces. If the bullet is seated out too far, (even slightly), the bullet stops on the lands before the cartridge is fully chambered. I had this happen quite a bit with American Eagle. It didn't happen with Remingtion-UMC. Even so, the pistol fires safely because the breech is locked.
 
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JHR, re trigger side movement. You can make statement summaries of something you haven't experienced all you want, but that doesn't change or fix the issue with at least one of these pistols. When I talked with the REM. representative, he acknowledged this wasn't the first time he'd heard about this.

The trigger is almost impossible to pull if it's traveling slightly left of centered. The 26 yrs I had in the military and the 15 yrs pistol competition from Bullseye to USPSA. experience, has never seen this particular issue before on any pistol, revolver, rifle or shotgun.. I would suggest to you, it's not just okay as is.

They sent a Next Day Air mailing label and a package to return it for repair. UPS picks it up later this morning. Hopefully I'll be back to the range with a couple hundred rounds breaking it in before too long.

I'm looking forward to it. It's a neat package.
 
The trigger is almost impossible to pull if it's traveling slightly left of centered. The 26 yrs I had in the military and the 15 yrs pistol competition from Bullseye to USPSA. experience, has never seen this particular issue before on any pistol, revolver, rifle or shotgun.. I would suggest to you, it's not just okay as is.

In my experience, I have pushed it sideways to the left and right, actiually pressing against the side and almost camming the trigger rearward, and had no problem firing the gun. "Almost impossible" does not apply in any way to the trigger on my gun. That said, I don't like the wobble and I don't think it should be there, but it is. I think I know how to take it out but that will have to wait because it does not impede the functioning of my gun and I'm going to make sure other more serious problems don't crop up that need warranty work.

I don't question that you have real problems. MAC did not seem to have a problem, just a subjective complaint. Subjective complaints can be addressed sjubjectively by anyone, but Remington will have to fix the real problems.

I think the biggest problem with this gun is the apparent lack of QA at the Para facility where it is made. It almost appears that since it doesn't say Para on the side, they couldn't care less about doing it right.

Or maybe at this price point, it is like buying a Jim Walters home and you have to finish it yourself or pay to have someone else do it. :uhoh:
 
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Failure to Extract/Eject

Something else I realized while watching the latest MAC vid. When he had the bulged case after firing the gun out of battery, he also had a failure to eject.

This can be another result of the Pedersen design locking the breech out of battery: If fired in this condition, the case may fail to extract. If you take an unloaded R51 and put a dowel down the barrel and push on the breechblock, you can push it into lock up. But you can move it no further no matter how hard you push. It just locks tighter. This is because the movement of the slide against the lug on top fo the block is what cams it out of lock. And in the proper firing sequence, it is the short movement of the block from battery to lock that gives the slide the necessary momentum to then cam the block out of lock. Start out of battery and locked, and there is little or no momentum imparted to the slide, so the slide does not cycle fully if it moves at all.
 
"This can be another result of the Pedersen design locking the breech out of battery"
I'm positive that is what happened to MAC. He even tapped the slide 'home' (but obviously not fully) right before the shot. But the bullet was rammed against the lands, so the slide never made it all the way; just far enough to activate the hammer system. I also find his observation "Whoa, that was loud...much stronger recoil" odd for two reasons. First, since the case did not rupture, why would the gun be louder? Out of battery ignition does not increase pressures; quite the opposite, rather, in the case of rupture or bulging, so what caused the over pressure condition (answer: bullet shoved into rifling by ham-fisted operator). Two, his subsequent shots with the same ammo appear to be similar recoil as well as sound volume/tonality afterward. Obviously microphones don't have good fidelity/etc., but the recoil looks very similar with subsequent identical rounds (maybe the R51 just tames 9mm +P+++ nicely as well? :p). I think the 'sharp recoil' he felt was the action starting from a fully-locked position delivering the bolt thrust impulse directly to his palm, the way his flawless Browning systems do ;)

The failure to eject could also be due to the case deformation. I don't know exactly how, but it is possible the bulge could interfere with case flipping out the same way an unbulged one would. It's pretty obvious that the gun in the video didn't even extract. That is indicative of the action not getting the running start it needs. I'm surprised that bulge didn't tie up the gun; you'd think the bulge between the bolt/barrel might impede the bolt's ability to tilt or tension the slide and bolt against each other. MAC was able to clear it very quickly, however.

Ooh, ooh!! Remington! Listen up! I have an idea for you dummies that capitalizes on both this potential "malfunction" and the AAC group you are stupidly putting down as we type! If a threaded-on suppressor had soft rubber or a spring between it and the slide nose, it would press the slide back enough (after it's momentum carries it fully forward into battery) to render the gun a non-moving single shot capable of incredible quiet and of cycling very low power loads (suppressor acts as a muzzle booster while adding no additional reciprocating weight on this design). Payment to be in the form of naming it the "Barn Burner" (or something better :D)

TCB
 
Ooh, ooh!! Remington! Listen up! I have an idea for you dummies that capitalizes on both this potential "malfunction" and the AAC group you are stupidly putting down as we type! If a threaded-on suppressor had soft rubber or a spring between it and the slide nose, it would press the slide back enough (after it's momentum carries it fully forward into battery) to render the gun a non-moving single shot capable of incredible quiet and of cycling very low power loads (suppressor acts as a muzzle booster while adding no additional reciprocating weight on this design). Payment to be in the form of naming it the "Barn Burner" (or something better :D)

TCB

I'll get the email campaign to Remington for the "Barn Burner" started immediately. :D
 
When I watched the latest MAC video with the THREE R51s with problems, I did consider he was using the slide release to feed the rounds that didn't seat.
Mine never did any of that with only about 50 rds fired. Usually my first rd fed is slingshot for full slide feed. I DID insert one mag when the gun ran dry that released the slide and fed smoothly. This is common with many 'standard' pistols. I didn't look into that with this pistol's slide release mechanism.

Since Remington apparently was concerned with the MAC review, maybe they'll make an effort to 'fix' these same issues I listed. Loose sight, hard trigger pull and very tight grip safety engagment. The serial # was 00018xxR51 if that may indicate a trend.
 
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Now that the grips are thinned down a bit (adds a hair more than 1/8" to the overall width), burnished with steel wool, and have a couple coats of cyanoacrylate slapped on (very lightly polished), I have to say the gun is looking and feeling pretty good. Not bad for two small scraps out of a 35$ honkin' slab of black walnut :cool:. I still don't think brown suits ultra-modern matte black styling, but it looks good for what it is (I may try Wenge or palmwood, next, since those black/greys will complement the Spartan hues of the slide/frame). When (not if) the slide gets polished and blued it will work better. The grips are just pressed into place right now (dental pick through screw holes in the magwell will pop them out) since I don't have whatever crazy small jeweler's screws Remington used on this thing at the local Lowe's; I'll hold off drilling for now. I am very impressed at how two small raised patches on either side make it feel more like a 'real gun' as opposed to a flattened piece optimized for carry.

I also can happily report the gun can now be easily cocked with a single finger (a pinkie, no less!) with the slide held by only three fingers. Maybe I'm just a badass, but stripping everything down with solvent while messing with the grips, polishing/sanding some tool marks off, and relubing everything has helped immensely. At the risk of jinxing myself, I would say mine is a solidly 'good' gun at this point. Here's something you probably can't do with a 1911 or others; rack the slide by pushing the top of the slide flat against your thigh (idiotic safety practice aside, it's pretty impressive you can even do that on the R51), or dig the rear sight with the muzzle pointed away from your leg into your jeans pocket and rack the slide. These sights/slide aren't sharp/catchy at all, either. Now, racking the slide slowly still reveals in its ugly entirety the disconnector bouncing around (three snags back, three hangs forward :barf:), but it does not appear anywhere capable of impeding function (anymore). Mag remains stiff and gritty, but it hasn't been worked near as much as the slide.

I think this will be pretty solid once I get the chamber cleaned up, and diagnose & fix the mag issues with hollowpoints.

TCB
 

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Grips look good. (are you using double stick tape? :neener: )

Looking at the rear profile, I think the palm swell is a bit low for my hand. I'm definitely going to try to extend the grips above their recess. May have to add a 3rd screw... :scrutiny:
 
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