tell me about the 25 auto cartridge?

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Catshooter said:
Didn't Walther make one called the model 11? Boy this is really digging into the past but it seems I recall they did and it is indeed a bit smaller than the Baby Browning. I'm not sure though.


Cat
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The Walther #9 may be what you are remembering. There were several numbered Walther pistol models in 6.35/.25acp:1,2,5,7,8,9. The #9 is the smallest an certainly rivals the Baby Browning for smallness here are some incomplete numbers to give you an idea.

BB length 102mm
#9 length 102mm
BB barrel length 50mm
#9 barrel length 51mm
BB weight 295 grams
#9 weight 260 grams

These figures are from Pistols of the World by Ian V. Hogg. I will attempt to find width figures, etc., but that may take some time. It appears it will be a close run race to which is the smaller .25acp autopistol.

Edit: I am not surprised rcmodel came up with something faster and more definitive.:D
 
Let's Try To Be Friends Discussing Guns

midland man said:
yes guys I am looking to learn something about the 25 auto so please lets don't fight here! thanks for your understanding! now what I want to know is what is the smallest 25 auto pistol made?? thanks!
Click to expand...

I'm with you, midland man.

"Blessed are the peacemakers". This is not directly referring to the old Colt Six-Shooter type, but about getting along with others, including your THR buddies.

Discuss. Relax. Enjoy ! ><>:)
 
The "rc" Mind

Nom de Forum said:
The Walther #9 may be what you are remembering. There were several numbered Walther pistol models in 6.35/.25acp:1,2,5,7,8,9. The #9 is the smallest an certainly rivals the Baby Browning for smallness here are some incomplete numbers to give you an idea.

BB length 102mm
#9 length 102mm
BB barrel length 50mm
#9 barrel length 51mm
BB weight 295 grams
#9 weight 260 grams

These figures are from Pistols of the World by Ian V. Hogg. I will attempt to find width figures, etc., but that may take some time. It appears it will be a close run race to which is the smaller .25acp autopistol.

Edit: I am not surprised rcmodel came up with something faster and more definitive.:D
Click to expand...


That rcmodel is one cool firearms sharp knowledgeable cat (dude) !:cool:
 
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kleanbore said:
Start with the kind of thing you would use to poke the fire or roast a piece of meat. Use a piece of metal about a quarter of an inch in diameter, and rather sharp on the end, with an ogive that causes some damage in terms of wound channel.

Thrust it into some ballistic gelatin, as hard as you can. Repeat several times, and measure the penetration.

Will you do better than with your Baby Browning?

I don't know, but until I've seen it I wouldn't bet a nickel against a fit person with the "stick" and on the gun.
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Not that hard to find ballistic tests of .25ACP. After all, it's only been around about 110 years.

The 1/4" dia stick that penetrates deeper than FMJ .25ACP (nominally .251" dia) will also penetrate deeper than your typical defense load in 9mm, .40, or .45 ...

Maybe time to give up the gun entirely in favor of the stick if that's your criteria.

Brass fetcher did one on here (THR) using .25ACP a while back:

Factory 50gr FMJ penetrated 14 inches (.250 recovered dia, basically no expansion), 35gr HP penetrated 7 inches (.369 recovered dia, expansion slowed it down - just like any other caliber).

Here it goes : the .25ACP in gelatin.

Block calibrated at 9.4cm and 593 ft/s
Firearm was 2.4" barrel recoil-operated semi-auto

Shot 1 - Remington UMC 50 gr MC. Impacted at 807 ft/sec and penetrated to 14.0". Recovered diameter was 0.250". Track outlined in light blue.

Shot 2 - Hornady 35 gr XTP JHP. Impacted at 931 ft/sec and penetrated to 6.7". Recovered diameter was 0.369". Track outlined in yellow.
Click to expand...

Thread is here:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=203529&highlight=.25acp+in+gelatin

Seems to correlate pretty well with the 45gr HP testing here:

HP into gelatin penetrated about 7", HP through denim (plugged) penetrated about 10".

http://www.firearmstactical.com/test_data/25acp/win25-45xp-b20.htm

kleanbore said:
The statement one usually hears is that a .25 automatic is better than a sharp stick.
Click to expand...

Some possible wisdom there. See tests above for reasons that statement is usually made.
 
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Posted by 45_auto: The 1/4" dia stick that penetrates deeper than FMJ .25ACP (nominally .251" dia) will also penetrate deeper than your typical defense load in 9mm, .40, or .45 ...
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That's nonsensical.

It may well be possible for someone to drive a spike into gel farther than an FBI-tested defense load (e.g., a 147 grain Winchester PDX1, with a mean penetration, expanded, of 15.6 inches) , at the expense of a narrower permanent wound channel, of course, but that does not mean for a moment that just any thrust what will go in deeper than the 7 to 9 inches of the Win. 45 grain .25 ACP will do that.

The question was whether a pointed rod thrust by an average reasonably able bodied person would penetrate deeper than a shot from a .25 auto. If so, that weapon is more effective than the bullet, in terms of wounding effectiveness. If not, no.

Simple foot-pound comparisons would tend to indicate yes, but someone really should try it to convince themselves and to illustrate the point to others.

Seven inches may seem like enough, when one looks at a person's chest from the front. But with the likelihood of an arm in the way and the attacker being turned sideways, it isn't. The FBI considers 12 inches to be a minimum, and considers 18 inches to be better. They also like a reasonable bullet diameter. And they shoot the same species that civilian defenders shoot.

Maybe time to give up the gun entirely in favor of the stick if that's your criteria.
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Not for me--the criterion is what meets an accepted minimum; I accept the FBI standard. Massad Ayoob describes the .25 ACP as "pathetic."

Of course, carrying a short pike with a round cross section may be unlawful in a great many jurisdictions. I'll stick with a gun I can use.

The .25 auto would not be my last choice. For that, a single shot Colt No. 4 derringer in .22 Short qualifies.

But the fact that is is a gun does not lead me to the automatic conclusion that it is as affective for self defense as some non-firearm weapons.
 
I would also bet that for instance a stab from a Bowie would be more effective that a single shot from a 25. At least I'd rather be shot.

However there are two points that weigh heavily in the 25s favor:

It's a gun. And most will run away from the sight of one.

And two it's a gun which is a stand off weapon. The more distance from your enemy the better in most situations.
 
So, rather than degenerate into what the .25 Auto ISN'T - why not hold to what it is as the OP asked.

Or, are folk trying to deliberately raise ire to get this to the point of being locked?

We already know that it is not a:

.45
Stick
Knife
Nail clipper
Goat

Among many other things.
 
Walther #9 & "Baby Browning"

Both of the above pistols were "approximately" the same size, although the # 9 is generally acknowledged to be "the smaller" of the two. (See posting #178 - barrel is 1mm longer for #9). Size and weight differences are minimal.

The Browning Vest Pocket Model was introduced in 1905, and proved to be such an impressive success, that Herr Walther produced his .25ACP Model 1 in 1906. The #1 was larger than the later #9, and the original Browning. The Walther #9 was not produced until 1921, and ended in 1945. To my knowledge, the #9 has never been replicated since.

There were 1,086,133 Model 1905 Brownings manufactured 1906-1959. In 1931 a smaller, lighter version of the 1905 Model, the "Baby" Browning came out and continued until 1983. Over 510,000 Baby Models were produced.

Also, Bauer, KBI, and PSA have marketed replicas of the Baby Browning.
 
Is there a reliable source of measurements for the smallest .25acp semi-auto pistol?

I have a book, Famous Automatic Pistols of Europe, that is a compilation of original factory manuals. Here are the measurements for the Baby Browning and the Walther No.9.

BB and #9 OAL 100mm
BB and #9 Height 72mm and 67mm
BB and #9 Width 20mm

So far no source of measurements completely matches with any other.
 
None I'm aware of.
I did learn that the original 1905 Vest Pocket Browning and Baby Browning (1931), were not one and the same, in my research. The "Baby" was similar, but smaller and lighter.
 
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I did try one out when I was 20 was wanting to know a few things SO I found a junk car and put one in the windshield .. came back the next day to see what it did ??? small divot lookin thing almost like a rock kicked up and hitting a windshield.. disappointing found a good nut about a 3/8 and threw it as hard as I could & did more damage then the .25 not real technical but interesting ...
 
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I believe the Bernadelli VB is the smallest .25 semi auto guys.........

They used to advertise it as such long after the Brownings or Walthers.

Oh that Hungarian guy with all the Youtube stuff has one on the Frommer Lillipute and it is quite small.

Anyone had any experience with the Le Francais pistols? I'll bet Anton Glock did........

Going in the other direction what is the biggest .25 auto you have experience with?

My first .25 experience was with a the Mauser Model 1910. It was captured in the Philipines by a Sea Bee (CB) from a Japanese officer along with a European style dress sword. I was disappointed as a 12 y/o that it was not a type 14 and an ancient katana. It was years before I found out that Japanese officers of the 1920s purchased their own pistols and that Navy officers had such parade swords during that time. Think a rapier with piercings and carvings of a Japanese flavor.

For a bit I really lusted after a 'Little Tom' which I understand was about the earliest double action semi. Finally got to handle one and lost interest
 
rcmodel said:
Two completely different guns.

The FN Browning 1905. Designed by John Browning.
(Note the grip safety.)
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_M...ri_Guisan_FN_Browning_model_1906_IMG_3267.jpg

The Baby Browning. (1927 - No grip safety)
Designed by John Browning & perfected by Dieudonné Saive.
John Browning died in 1926.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_Baby_Browning#/image/File:Baby_Browning.jpg

rc
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Thanks again, rc. I was relying on an old 1995 era Blue Book of Gun Values, for most of my info.

"A picture is (or two pictures are) worth a 1,000 words".:)
 
Seecamp made a .25 that was a half inch longer on both length and height compared to the Baby Browning. It should be noted that they made the same gun shoot both .32 and .380 calibers. So for an extra half inch in height and length you can go from a .25 to a .380. I believe the Walther .25's were slightly smaller than the Brownings by 3mm in length (103mm vs. 100mm) and .5 mm in height (17.5 vs. 17). That's less than 1/8th inch shorter but still it is shorter. The Baby Browning was actually designed to compete with the Walther Model 9. The Browning .25's sold before 1931, which is when the Baby Browning was introduced, were called the Browning Vest Pocket. Because Walther introduced the Model 9 which was substantially smaller than the Vest Pocket Browning developed the Baby Browning. The Bernardelli VP is longer than the Walther but it is shorter in height. It's 106mm in length but only 15.5mm tall. So which is actually "bigger" when one is longer and the other is shorter? Most people give the edge to being smaller to the Walther.
 
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kBob said:
I believe the Bernadelli VB is the smallest .25 semi auto guys.........

They used to advertise it as such long after the Brownings or Walthers.

Oh that Hungarian guy with all the Youtube stuff has one on the Frommer Lillipute and it is quite small.

Anyone had any experience with the Le Francais pistols? I'll bet Anton Glock did........

Going in the other direction what is the biggest .25 auto you have experience with?

My first .25 experience was with a the Mauser Model 1910. It was captured in the Philipines by a Sea Bee (CB) from a Japanese officer along with a European style dress sword. I was disappointed as a 12 y/o that it was not a type 14 and an ancient katana. It was years before I found out that Japanese officers of the 1920s purchased their own pistols and that Navy officers had such parade swords during that time. Think a rapier with piercings and carvings of a Japanese flavor.

For a bit I really lusted after a 'Little Tom' which I understand was about the earliest double action semi. Finally got to handle one and lost interest
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Ian Hogg lists the Bernadelli VP as having a OAL 5mm longer than the BB and #9. But since there seams to be little agreement from multiple measurement sources who knows if this is right. I suspect the VP was advertised as the smallest at the time rather than the smallest of all time.

Edit: Looks like the OAL on the Frommer you mentioned is as much as 10mm longer than the BB and #9.
 
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The original poster said : "Tell me about the 25 auto cartridge, so... is it good, bad, and will it work when needed?"

With what was mentioned by those that still carry it on occasion even now, and "there were 1,086,133 Model 1905 Brownings manufactured 1906-1959. In 1931 over 510,000 Baby Models were produced" I guess that pretty much answered that. Wow... 1.5 MILLION, (and that's just the Brownings!) and copies still being sold today. Add the cheaper (and I don't mean just less expensive) guns sold in .25 ACP and you have a whole lot of folks that like that caliber. There's just something about it I guess. I know I love my little Bauer.
 
BLU, I've got one too, bro., but it usually stays in the drawer at home. It fills a special niche in my stash, and it is the smallest gun I own.

I've carried it before, usually accompanied by my Taurus P-22, one in each of the front pants pockets. Last time I did that was at a public restroom, off the Interstate at night. I confidently walked in, hands in pockets, unnoticeably packing a .22 & a .25.

Man, that was what I'd call stupid now, but felt good then.

Thankfully, my arsenal options have improved now, but I still do dumb things now and again.
 
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Add the cheaper (and I don't mean just less expensive) guns sold in .25 ACP and you have a whole lot of folks that like that caliber.
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There have been over 4 millions Raven P-25 pistols made by different companies. Theere are about 2 million original Raven Arms made models. Phoenix Arms took up production after the factory fire that destroyed Raven Arms. Other companies made the gun after Phoenix Arms dropped production too. They were popular because they were relatively cheap and were considered a throwaway gun. It's funny that guns in the same price range (if you adjust for inflation) are never though of that way now. You just don't hear of people wanting to rob a liquor store with their Ruger LCP and then drop the gun in a river somewhere. That was the whole appeal of the Raven or at least the media portrayed it that way. I didn't buy mine for that reason. But clearly some people did it. According to some crime statistics they were used in a whole bunch of robberies and murders. But maybe that's something else the media cooked up for all I know. I don't trust them much especially when it comes to the issue of guns.
 
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