Kimber any thoughts????

"pysopspec" asks

What posts are you responding to where a litany of people who've never owned a Kimber are registering these complaints? Doing CTRL+F for "never own," the word "again" shows up attached to the phrase from those who aren't fans of the brand.

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Uh, well post #14 by guyfromohio (the Dan Wesson fanboys seem to be the most vociferous Kimber and Colt haters); post $23 by SSN Vet; posts #29 and 30 by JTQ, post # 44 by 460Kodiak; #48 by "truthtellers" and #66 by "Old Checkered Wool" ... Every one of these gentlemen either stated outright they've never owned a single Kimber -- yet felt compelled to make negative remarks about the brand -- or still commented without noting any ownership experience.

Apparently, I am one of the few that actually reads every post in a thread.

And, apparently, zero experience beyond handling a pistol in a gunshop doesn't stop most folks from disparaging a company's entire product line.

I shoot my 1911s. And I've never, ever parroted criticism of any single handgun (or rifle) that I've not had extensive experience with. YMMV.

It doesn't take a ton of experience to see that a $1500 Kimber might not be the best deal in 1911's.

That's a pretty competitive price range with Colt, DW, and even an STI or two. Besides, there's plenty of experienced K owners screaming NO!, right now.

... posts #29 and 30 by JTQ

...stated outright they've never owned a single Kimber -- yet felt compelled to make negative remarks about the brand

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JTQ here,
For clarity, so everybody understands the point you're making, here are the "negative" comments from the two posts mentioned above attributed to me.

The following post was in response to a poster saying he had worn out two MIM hammers on a Clackamas stamped Kimber.

Post #29
I would have guessed all the Clackamas stamped Kimbers (though I believe all Kimber 1911's have always been made in Yonkers, NY) came without MIM.

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The following post was in response to a post saying to avoid buying the lower priced guns in the Kimber line-up, because they use cheap parts in those gun. I was disagreeing with that poster.

Post #30
I'm not a Kimber guy, but I'm a 1911 guy, and the typical advice is the complete opposite of this.

Kimber has no custom shop, and has been mentioned earlier in this thread, Kimber uses the same parts in all their guns.

The Custom II and TLE II are typically the best value in the Kimber line-up. The high end models are typically just adorned with "bling", which is the only difference between the base models and the "high end" Kimbers.

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I'm not sure I read negative comments in either of those two posts, and neither comments were intended as negative comments towards Kimber. Heck, rereading those, if anything, it looks like I'm defending Kimber, which is really what I was doing. However, you are correct I don't own a Kimber.

Old Dog said:

"pysopspec" asks

Uh, well post #14 by guyfromohio (the Dan Wesson fanboys seem to be the most vociferous Kimber and Colt haters); post $23 by SSN Vet; posts #29 and 30 by JTQ, post # 44 by 460Kodiak; #48 by "truthtellers" and #66 by "Old Checkered Wool" ... Every one of these gentlemen either stated outright they've never owned a single Kimber -- yet felt compelled to make negative remarks about the brand -- or still commented without noting any ownership experience.

Apparently, I am one of the few that actually reads every post in a thread.

And, apparently, zero experience beyond handling a pistol in a gunshop doesn't stop most folks from disparaging a company's entire product line.

I shoot my 1911s. And I've never, ever parroted criticism of any single handgun (or rifle) that I've not had extensive experience with. YMMV.

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I understand your frustration, and people who simply parrot internet posts do get annoying.

However, if someone sits in the seat of a Corvette, and then looks at the price tag, and feels that the value of the vehicle does not balance out with the price, or sees defects in a factory new car, and decides that product line is not a good use of money, and perhaps even decides that that company is not one they want to do business with, that's wrong? Saying so is wrong? You also have to buy the car first and own it for awhile to have a valid opinion of that product line or company's automobiles? I don't think you do, and that attitude is only afforded to people with lots of money, as they will undoubtedly waste a lot trying many products that they decide they don't like.

The OP asked about opinions. Opinions are of different value. Personally, I hope the OP listens to the opinions of actual owners more than we non-owners, as your feedback is in fact more valuable, but that isn't a reason for non-owners to not express why they choose not to be an owner. In the case of my particular post, I found the obvious lack of QC to be a possible indicator that other QC issues may be slipping by as well. Are they? Some say yes, and others no. Given what I see as a minimal cost benefit ratio from this particular brand, I don't care to find out. It's also possible the gun was a total champ and despite the surface rust, would exhibit no function issues at all. It may have also left the factory in fine condition. But rust on a new gun makes me wonder about the quality of materials being used to make the gun, or the quality of the finish, both of which affect the price point in my mind.

Any reason I have for not choosing to be an owner of a particular firearm, or firearm brand is based on three things. The first is personal preference. The second is first hand experience. The third is internet posts and reviews of that gun. That's simple market research on the consumer's part.

I hear what you are saying, but my point is that a person doing market research will naturally be turned off, and on by different companies, and does not necessarily need to be a long or even a short term owner of said product to have a valid opinion about it. Yes, the OP needs to weigh the importance of opinions like mine as less relevant than an owners, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to share.

JTQ, please note that I further stated:

or still commented without noting any ownership experience.

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However, if someone sits in the seat of a Corvette, and then looks at the price tag, and feels that the value of the vehicle does not balance out with the price, or sees defects in a factory new car, and decides that product line is not a good use of money, and perhaps even decides that that company is not one they want to do business with, that's wrong?

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I get what you're saying here, but certainly, the fact remains that these are all superficial observations and you still would not be qualified to discuss either the merits or true faults of this particular vehicle with no experience of having owned one or driven same. "Gosh, I just didn't feel comfortable in those bucket seats when I sat in the car in the showroom, so I'd never buy one ... "

Surface rust on a gun that's been fondled by oily or sweaty hands, in and out of the counter shelves or the store's safe, with no humidity control? I've seen other new guns besides Kimbers displaying that, and I've not seen surface rust on any new Kimber that ate into the finish, couldn't be easily cleaned off or would affect performance.

Look, the point I was attempting to clarify was that typically these threads devolve into three camps, one supporting the platform or manufacturer under discussion, another consisting of dis-satisfied owners or former owners, and finally, the one where everyone pitches in with hyperbole and stereotypes based solely on what they've gleaned from either the internet or minimum wage gunstore counter clerks.

The internet stereotypes are often so prevalent that the thread becomes entirely predictable. Kimber? Too much MIM, bad customer service (usually rote rantings dating back from when the company's CS was much worse than it is today, which is now about industry standard), overpriced. Springfield Amory? More MIM, argh? And I don't want a pistol stamped made in Brazil (or Croatia). Colt's? Bad quality control from the factory, overpriced (usually spoken by someone who hasn't bought a new Colt or compared its prices against the fabled Dan Wessons). Smith and Wesson? Caved to the damn politicians with The Lock ... oh, and MIM ... the M&Ps have bad barrels/accuracy issues/bad triggers (all of which have been since fixed, but still repeated by the score on the internet). Taurus? The list goes on (and this is the maker most bashed by those who've never owned one). SIGs? Went to crap when they started making guns in the U.S. (huh?), need to bring back the stamped slides 'cause we liked 'em ... H&K? Way overpriced for plastic pistols and the company hates its civilian buyers ...

JTQ, please note that I further stated:

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Quote:
...or still commented without noting any ownership experience.

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I'm not arguing with you, this is just for clarity…

If I were a 21 year old that had never owned a 1911 before yesterday, and knew nothing about how 1911's worked or their history, or the history of the 1911 industry, had never before shot a 1911, and never participated on a 1911 specific gun forum, or any gun forum, but bought a Kimber Saphire Pro II yesterday, because I thought is was a pretty blue color, and put one magazine of ammo through it yesterday, my opinion would be more valuable since I were a Kimber owner? Is that what you're saying?

"It doesn't take a ton of experience to see that a $1500 Kimber might not be the best deal in 1911's.

That's a pretty competitive price range with Colt, DW, and even an STI or two. Besides, there's plenty of experienced K owners screaming NO!, right now"



Why do people seem to think that the starting price on a Kimber is $1,500.00?

See post 68 where I note the following, with actual, recent prices from Bud's Guns;

Here's what I know about Kimbers. All of their models use the same quality parts. The higher cost models usually have fancy paint/coatings, front strap checkering or other aesthetic details.

A Custom II is in the $725.00 range.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/i...andguns/Kimber


A Colt XSE, Series 80, which is comparably equipped is in the $1,000.00 range.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/p...ducts_id/55899


Springfield Loaded Target .45 is in the $825.00 range.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/i...ngfield+Armory


An STI Trojan is in the $1,050.00 range

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/.../411548732/STI+The+Trojan+5.0+8+1+40S&W+5.11"
(just added this one)

Kimber makes nice enough guns, at reasonable prices. If you want high dollar, you can pay it for their higher end guns, but your money is going into cosmetics; they use the same barrels for all of their guns. Now the Kimbers I've shot have all been very accurate. Again, same for the Colts, Springfields and various others.

In my experience (granted it's limited though my Kimber has over 15,000 .45 rounds and another 5,000 or so .40 S&W rounds through it since the conversion), the ones I've shot are as nice as the Colts I've shot. And probably slightly better than Springfield Armory guns. Nothing wrong with the Springfields or Colts, they're nice guns as well. Same with STI, I can't think of anyone who has anything bad to say about them.

But think about this, Springfield has a super customer service reputation because for a period of time a ton of their guns needed customer service. Kudos for having the integrity to stand behind your product, but let's be honest, there were a lot of pissed off people with new guns that had to go back to the factory to be made reliable. Mine wasn't one of them, but I only bought it in January, so maybe they're expunged the gremlins...

That said, I have seen all of them choke at USPSA and IDPA matches, as well as high-end custom guns from Wilson Combat, Nighthawk and Les Baer among others.

JTQ comes back with:

I'm not arguing with you, this is just for clarity…

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Um, if you say so ...

And then:

If I were a 21 year old that had never owned a 1911 before yesterday, and knew nothing about how 1911's worked or their history, or the history of the 1911 industry, had never before shot a 1911, and never participated on a 1911 specific gun forum, or any gun forum, but bought a Kimber Saphire Pro II yesterday, because I thought is was a pretty blue color, and put one magazine of ammo through it yesterday, my opinion would be more valuable since I were a Kimber owner?

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Ah, no, and I'm pretty sure you know what I was saying. To use the automobile comparison -- and I'm sure most of us have bought new cars -- we're a lot happier with our car the first few days after we've driven away from the dealer, but a year later, when we keep having to go back for warranty work for silly problems and recalls, we might not be so happy. More extensive experience provides greater clarity (your word) and credibility. Please note what I said:

I shoot my 1911s. And I've never, ever parroted criticism of any single handgun (or rifle) that I've not had extensive experience with.

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Robertg, thanks for your comments.

Frankly, I'd confidently recommend a Kimber to any new 1911 buyer. I suspect most new buyers of the platform aren't gonna shoot them enough to ever have to worry about MIM parts breakage, and the features, at the price point, in my opinion, make the company's line a good value. At any rate, my experiences have been all positive, the fit and finish on my pistols has been superb and they're all pretty guns (yeah, I said it, and I like pretty guns), but mostly, they've all been top-notch reliable and typically more than acceptably accurate.

That said, I have seen all of them choke at USPSA and IDPA matches, as well as high-end custom guns from Wilson Combat, Nighthawk and Les Baer among others.

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In my experience and observation, the least likely to choke (or break), when run long and hard, are Colts.

Old Dog wrote,
And I've never, ever parroted criticism of any single handgun (or rifle) that I've not had extensive experience with.

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Assuming that also includes positive comments and technical information, and I think we're clear. I don't agree, but I'm clear about your opinion. Clarity over agreement.

@ Old Dog

Uh, well post #14 by guyfromohio (the Dan Wesson fanboys seem to be the most vociferous Kimber and Colt haters); post $23 by SSN Vet; posts #29 and 30 by JTQ, post # 44 by 460Kodiak; #48 by "truthtellers" and #66 by "Old Checkered Wool" ... Every one of these gentlemen either stated outright they've never owned a single Kimber -- yet felt compelled to make negative remarks about the brand -- or still commented without noting any ownership experience.

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#14 says he's never owned a Kimber, but doesn't say anything disparaging about the brand. How is a statement of fact equal to hate? I've never owned a Vespa scooter, a Droid phone, or a Kitchen Aid mixer, but my saying so isn't a value judgment on any of them.

#23 observes that "Upper-mid range production 1911, often with bling @ a more or less premium production price." That's a statement many would agree with, but even disagreement doesn't denote hate on the brand. Similarly, he says that potential buyers should ensure a preference about the Swartz safety. That's informed consumerism, not hate. If one were to say "BMW makes many upper-mid range cars, often with extra features at a more or less premium price," level headed fans and critics alike could find that reasonable.

#s 29-30 discuss where Kimbers are made and make the observation that 'Kimber uses Kimber parts.' Blasphemy!

#44 was from a person who looked at one of the guns and found rust on it. Can you blame him for not making a purchase? "I thought buying a Mac at the Apple Store, but the aluminum casing for the computer looked damaged." Heretic!

#48 feels that Kimbers are expensive. Guess what? Relative to other guns, and other 1911s, they are. Some feel the premium is worth it, others weigh their needs and budget and come up with a different conclusion. But different personal preferences =! hate on the brand. And for many who equate price to value, that expense is part of the point. Again, nothing wrong with it.

#66 also put a lot of thought into a buying decision, and goes out of his way to acknowledge that while some Kimber owners have problems (a fact), many are perfectly happy.

Different preferences and factual observations are not hate. Kindly stop playing the righteously indignant victim.

Apparently, I am one of the few that actually reads every post in a thread.

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I read the thread–I wasn't asking you to summarize it and certainly didn't intend to pee in your Wheaties (nor invite a backhanded petulant response). All I requested was that you use the tools provided by the forum to communicate more clearly. Certainly no offense of hand-wringing intended.

Um, "backhanded petulant response?" I made no mention of "hate" and calling me out as a "righteously indignant victim" is ... well, a little more front-handed insult than backhanded.

At any rate, you have my sincere apologies if anything I said offended you.

I've always rather likened 1911s to Harleys. A product fraught with issues down the road (literally) after purchases, most which can be avoided by the savvy owner who learns how his chosen pistol/bike functions and how to maintain it.

This is the semi-auto forum. Would you go on a motorcycle forum and make your observations about a bike you've never ridden nor owned? Tell a novice buyer not to buy the bike because you saw one in a showroom once that was cosmetically flawed? Tell the novice buyer not to buy the bike because you read on the internet about all the most common problems? Or that it was too expensive for you?

By the way, I prefer Cheerios over Wheaties. And for the record, most of my 1911s are Colt's.

Um, "backhanded petulant response?" I made no mention of "hate" and calling me out as a "righteously indignant victim" is ... well, a little more front-handed insult than backhanded.

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...

Well, predictably, we've had: numerous complaints about Kimber because the company has really super-nice ads in the gun magazines; guys who say that Kimbers are "all show and no go" (guy who's never owned one) who won't own one for "numerous reasons" (but fail to disclose those reasons); remarks confirming that Kimber has the Swartz safety (but no one says why this is bad); complaints about customer service (which may be valid if the complainant actually had occasion to use the company's CS, rather than just believing everything he read on the internet), etc., etc., ad nauseum.

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By hate, I mean the internet discussion definition along the lines of 'calculated or intense dislike,' the sort that would be characterized by 'numerous complaints, unfounded, ad nauseum.' Even conceding the definition, those numerous complaints aren't really populated by complaints, aren't numerous, and have more to do with personal preferences than dislike. Since those complaints don't exist in the first place, what you're doing is a pretty standard straw man argument. The petulance is your sarcasm about being the only one to read the thread (therefore, the "others," me, must lack reading comprehension or must be lazy).

No worries about offense. I love sarcasm, though prefer it to be clever. Anonymous people on the internet aren't worth getting riled up over, but that doesn't mean that conversations should be had without clarity or that assertions can't be called out if not backed up.

stoky said:

In my experience and observation, the least likely to choke (or break), when run long and hard, are Colts.

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I can't say if any has been less likely to choke because even when they do choke, it's almost never apparent at the time of the choke whether it's ammo, shooter or gun causing the issues.

Don't clean a 1911 and it will choke. Don't lube it, it'll choke. Produce out of spec ammo and it'll choke. Don't have the correct grip and it'll choke (grip safety won't disengage, thumb rubs slide, inadvertently hit mag catch, etc.), any number of things cause a "malfunction", and in the middle of a match, your first task is to get the gun running and continue shooting.

Most often when these guns choke, it's an ammo issue. Second most common issue is magazines, though I've never had a bad 1911 magazine, and I have everything ranging from El-Cheapo Del Mar Gun Show Shooting Star mags to Chip McCormicks, Ed Browns, Metalform, MecGar, Tripp Research, Check Mate, and various others in calibers 9mm, .40 S&W and .45ACP.

The most picky was the .40 S&W, but a higher mag catch from EGW fixed the issues I was having with it.

To summarize, there have been few actual broken 1911s in my experience. I've seen a bulged barrel from a squib, but that's a shooter induced issue. I've seen sights fall off, but again that's more often than not an aftermarket sight that came loose and took flight. I bent a firing pin once, but that was caused by the hack that milled my slide and installed a Bo-Mar sight but left the firing pin stop a hair too long. When the gun cycled, the firing pin stop would come out a bit and keep the firing pin forward, the next round would try to get past the protruding pin and after a few tries, I noticed the issue and corrected it. Had to replace the firing pin, but that was my fault for having a hack work on my gun.

EDIT: I've also seen several plunger tubes take flight. That seems to be the most common "break" issue with these guns.

Any gun once sorted out usually runs fine. There's almost always going to be a period where you're figuring out what ammo the gun likes and what it takes to get it to run consistently, but after this most I've seen run well. You do have to know what's going wrong before you can actually correct/fix it. If you're not troubleshooting after each issue, you should not expect the problems to go away.

There is one guy I shoot with who perpetually has issues with a Kimber in .40 S&W, but I think that seems to be a combination extractor-ammo issue. If he has it sorted out next match, I'll take that off my list of guns that choke at matches.