AR accuracy

Took a long time friend who was a fellow handloader and accuracy nut to drag me in years ago.

Once I saw the light, I jumped right in.

gamestalker said:

I now have a whole new respect and perspective regarding AR's, who knows, might even build one myself. He's starting another build now, an AR10. can't wait to see that one print.

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Welcome to the world of modern sporting rifles. Some of the old school A1/A2:s weren't bad at all, but floated precision barrels, rigid upper receivers and high quality parts have brought them to a whole new level. I've hunted with AR:s since the 80's and still do. I got asked (well, not really asked, more like ridiculed for) a lot about their accuracy - or perceived lack thereof - but after numerous 200-300yd grouse kills with a 11" shorty and a 365yd whitetail doe with a .308 R-25 with nothing more than a lapped barrel and a good scope, the tone has changed dramatically.

I was a bit shocked when one of my hunting buddies asked me to help him choose an AR last year. That's the same guy who got me a classy tweed hunting jacket for my birthday only a few years earlier, "to dress me up properly, and to rid me of those assault rifles I bring to hunts".

The first Colt HBAR I bought would put 10 rounds under an inch @ 100 yds. Been impressed with them ever since.

I used to be able to ring a 6" plate at 200yds with a 17" barrel and irons with my hand loads off hand. But, that was many moons ago when I was at the range 2-3 times a week

gamestalker said:

One of the aspect about them that I don't care for those, is the weight. They are anything but light weight rifles.

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True. Heavy barrel profile is a common denominator for truly accurate ones and lugging one around in any moving hunt is a royal pain. I've come across a couple of ~1MOA (with select ammo / handloads) pencil profile barrels so far but the majority of lightweight ones can barely muster triple that. I took the R-25 to a driven hunt last month and was promptly reminded why lightweight big game gun market exists in the first place. On the other hand, in a proper treestand or box stand close to 10lbs doesn't matter.

Sell the heavy pot metal plastic AR and buy a mini 14.

I see this sort of post on the mini 14 threads all the time.
Just thought I'd turn the table.
3 large in a AR? I would hope it would shoot.
My .223 WSSM Coyote that I have $800 in[including the Wilson stright line dies] shoots 1/2 MOA. The WSSM gives me 600 fps over the .223 Rem. But of couse I can't fire bursts like a AR can. If I ever need to do that.

jim in Anchorage said:

Sell the heavy pot metal plastic AR and buy a mini 14.

I see this sort of post on the mini 14 threads all the time.
Just thought I'd turn the table.

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This was bound to come up at some point.

As I see it, funds permitting the two aren't really alternatives but a perfect pair to complement each other for different hunts. Evening in a treestand? AR. Stalking? Mini. Open country varminting? AR. Driven hunts? Mini. And so on. Either can do it all, in one configuration or another, but each has its advantages. Then there are situations that call for another type of rifle completely. Like mountain hunts, where very long accurate shots are needed and no-one in their right mind would consider bringing a Nemo Arms Omen or the like, regardless of its accuracy and perfect caliber of .300WinMag. Or late season grouse hunting; despite the weight a shorty AR is great but as the rifle isn't the primary weapon, an ultra lightweight bolt gun is much easier to carry on a sling while holding a shotgun. CXP4 is understandably out of the question. I still do the majority of hunting with AR:s, I just don't use them for everything anymore.

Still... accuracy, controllability, smooth recoil and quick follow-up shots are great when you need them.

hq said:

This was bound to come up at some point.

As I see it, funds permitting the two aren't really alternatives but a perfect pair to complement each other for different hunts. Evening in a treestand? AR. Stalking? Mini. Open country varminting? AR. Driven hunts? Mini. And so on. Either can do it all, in one configuration or another, but each has its advantages. Then there are situations that call for another type of rifle completely. Like mountain hunts, where very long accurate shots are needed and no-one in their right mind would consider bringing a Nemo Arms Omen or the like, regardless of its accuracy and perfect caliber of .300WinMag. Or late season grouse hunting; despite the weight a shorty AR is great but as the rifle isn't the primary weapon, an ultra lightweight bolt gun is much easier to carry on a sling while holding a shotgun. CXP4 is understandably out of the question. I still do the majority of hunting with AR:s, I just don't use them for everything anymore.

Still... accuracy, controllability, smooth recoil and quick follow-up shots are great when you need them.

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Very good post, but a few points I have to question. Why on a grouse hunt would you carry a rifle? I carry a .22 hand gun for the birds that don't fly[known as "fool hens" ] shotgun for the flyers.:
Also why would I would I hunt Big game [or any game] with a AR 15 ? I have many better options.

jim in Anchorage said:

Very good post, but a few points I have to question. Why on a grouse hunt would you carry a rifle?

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Thanks. Grouse hunting, as in black grouse, snow grouse and wood grouse (capercaillie), is an exercise in frustration. Far more difficult than hunting almost any other subspecies of grouse. Good pointing dog is an essential companion for wingshooting but late in the season grouse like to use treetops for feeding and vantage points. There's little chance in getting closer than 100-150 yards of them, way out of reach of a shotgun, and that's when an accurate, small caliber rifle comes into play. .223 is one of the best calibers for that purpose.

hq said:

Thanks. Grouse hunting, as in black grouse, snow grouse and wood grouse (capercaillie), is an exercise in frustration. Far more difficult than hunting almost any other subspecies of grouse. Good pointing dog is an essential companion for wingshooting but late in the season grouse like to use treetops for feeding and vantage points. There's little chance in getting closer than 100-150 yards of them, way out of reach of a shotgun, and that's when an accurate, small caliber rifle comes into play. .223 is one of the best calibers for that purpose.

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Good explanation. But what sort of terrain are you hunting? My grouse are woods birds and can't see me till I'm right on top of them. What you are describing sounds like Ptarmigan to me. Open tundra birds, they can spook a mile away.

Yeah, learn something new every day.

jim in Anchorage said:

Good explanation. But what sort of terrain are you hunting?

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This.



Snow grouse is also called willow ptarmigan; a close relative of ptarmigan. Black grouse is a medium-sized (2-3lbs) bird and wood grouse somewhat larger (up to 10lbs+), common to wooded swamp and wetland areas. Here's a picture of a male black grouse and two fairly young male wood grouse.

With my rifle of choice for hunting them in cold weather, no less. To keep it AR-related.

Danm you hunt in some cold weather. That hoer frost looks 20 below [or worse] I pack it in when it get's that cold.
But my youth is long gone. So enjoy your's now!

I have a stock Armalite M4 and have as my next "want" to get a heavy barreled upper and better trigger for accuracy. As it is, the best I can get is 1.5-2.0 MOA

If I had that I might shoot it more and find something to hunt with it.

Thanks for posting that Hq. Where I live, center fire rifles are banned for bird hunting. Many is the time I have been frustrated by seeing large flocks of pheasants out in snow covered fields with no way to get to them. If they allowed it there would not be a safe place in all of Iowa, lol. Since I first qualified with one in 1969, I have thought of them as very accurate and easy to hit with out to 400 meters. Even some of the cheap ones are pretty accurate as in 1.5 MOA or better that I have shot. One exception was a badly copper fouled one. I though something bad happened to the barrel. I guess it did but it was fixed by determined cleaning.

It can get pretty cold sometimes but that picture was taken late October, 2005 if memory serves, on a toasty warm -5°F weather just north of the Arctic Circle. Too bad that the grouse season is only seven weeks between Sep 10th and Oct 31st, I'd love to try it in the dead of winter. My father used to tell stories about how much longer the season was in 1920's and 30's and his grouse hunting trips to wilderness on skis.

.223 can definitely have issues with copper fouling. I really should scrub the barrel of the particular AR in the pictures, I used the upper briefly with an M16 lower, the barrel got a bit hot and a consistent 1MOA spread out to five. I've also been looking for a CMP-style carbine length free float tube, to retain the stock AR appearance and improve accuracy even further. Maybe even rebarrel it with a 13-14" medium profile barrel to improve muzzle velocities and to get rid of the earth-shattering noise (and fireball of a muzzle blast) when it's shot without a suppressor. The current 11" is very heavy, a full one inch bull barrel under the handguard. It weighs more than a 20" pencil barrel, borderline unacceptable for a backpack gun.

Like any gun it's the barrel. Match barrels are longer and heavier than the service type. The chamber and bolt are matched to get the best lockup. And most match barrels have a faster twist (<1:8) to stabilize 80+gr bullets. Sove even move the port forward to delay the action. Then you have a lot of trigger options from adj 1lb single stage to 3# lower 2 stage triggers. It's taken me while to get use to a 2 stage trigger after shooting single stage for 4 decades.

My 458SOCOM can to 1/2 groups at 100 yrds single shot.
The best I have done so far on multiple shots 3 shot group is 7/8" at 100 yrds. But I'm still doing load workups. I had my first 3 shot string that the velocity was identical, 0 ES, 0 SD. Probably will never see that again.

Once I discovered just how they work, from the threaded barrel extensions to the rotating bolts, it made sense that they shoot right with bolt guns of the same configuration.

As much as I didn't want it to happen, a couple of mine have moved ahead of my Ruger 77 .223 on the go to g-hog getter list.

One is a 20" free floated 1" diameter bbl, and it's usually just a short or no walk- set it on something solid rifle.

Even the 16"chrome lined M4 profile barrel I've scoped will shoot right with most lightweight bolt .223s, at least from the numerous handloads I've tried through it..

Most accurate gun I ever shot was a Rock River AR - 16" varmiter.

hq said:

This.

View attachment 737836

Snow grouse is also called willow ptarmigan; a close relative of ptarmigan. Black grouse is a medium-sized (2-3lbs) bird and wood grouse somewhat larger (up to 10lbs+), common to wooded swamp and wetland areas. Here's a picture of a male black grouse and two fairly young male wood grouse.

With my rifle of choice for hunting them in cold weather, no less. To keep it AR-related.

View attachment 737837

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Very cool! Pun intended.

You can lighten up your AR quite a bit by going with a smaller diameter barrel without losing precision. I've got a shorty AR with a 10.5 inch barrel and I gotta agree with you about the muzzle blast. I'm hoping to be able to afford a suppressor soon.

Both sets of my great-grand parents on my mother's side came to the US from Finland. One great grandfather was smuggled out of the country by his friends because the Russians wanted to execute him. The other great grandfather fled to avoid being drafted into the Russian Army.

That's some beautiful country, there

to be fair, i can achieve the same feat on a bulgarian parts AK-74 (5.56) with new US made barrel and decent ammo

All the nonsense about "gotta be a heavy barrel, gotta be fast twist is just that. I've posted this over the years, but gonna put it out again. This is my Windham Bushmaster, 1:9, VX-III, hand loads, air gauged light weight barrel.

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