WAS D.C. v HELLER A BAD DECISION?

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The quoted article has it backwards. The Revolutionary War was started to keep the British from confiscating arms at Lexington and Concord. The authors of the Bill of Rights would never have restricted arms ownership to a militia controlled by the government, regardless if it was state or federal.

There's nothing new about the idea of gun ownership as an individual right. It's been one since the beginning. What is a new notion is the concept of a "collective" right. It's a relatively modern concept created by starting with the assumption that guns should be banned and twisting the evidence to fit the premise.

Let's compare the two viewpoints

Consistent with the history of the American Revolution
Individual - Yes / Collective - No
Consistent with every other right in Bill of Rights
Individual - Yes / Collective - No
Supported by the Supreme Court of the United States
Individual - Yes / Collective - No

The article is correct about one thing -the NRA didn't get involved in gun politics until relatively recently. That's because they didn't have to - gun ownership was considered entirely normal and the idea that guns were evil was unheard of.
 
natman said:
...The Revolutionary War was started to keep the British from confiscating arms at Lexington and Concord....
Not really. That might have been the first military engagement of the Revolutionary War, but it was not the cause or the reason.

At the time of the Revolution, the Thirteen Colonies were in their own rights significant economic and political entities, and they had been for some time. Each was substantially self governing, subject to the oversight of the Crown. Each had its public administration infrastructure.

The independent economic prosperity of the Colonies in fact laid the foundation for the Revolution. England wanted money, and the economic prosperity of the Colonies made them an attractive revenue source. And so England started to increase its economic demands (in the form of taxes and control of commercial activities) to the point that many of the more successful colonists, like many of our Founding Fathers, were motivated to resist the English attempts at stifling colonial prosperity. And colonial resistance to English economic policies led to English political constraints. And so we broke with England.

Indeed, the Revolution was not so much a Revolution as it was a war of secession. We weren't interested in toppling the government of England. We wanted to cast off its political yoke and go our own way. We simply wanted to secede.

Tensions between the occupying British and the Colonialists had been increasing leading up to Lexington and Concord. The British sought to head off armed resistance by confiscating guns and munitions stockpiled at Lexington and Concord. Instead, the British tactic was a catalyst that opened active hostilities.
 
I thought it was the McDonald decision, not Heller, that affirmed the 2nd amendment was an individual right?
 
...the 2nd isn't to regulate the citizen, it is to restrict the government from infringing our right.

While also authorizing government to place restrictions on the Second Amendment right consistent with the Amendment's jurisprudence.

As the Heller Court explained: the rights enshrined in the Second Amendment are no more absolute that the rights enshrined in the First:

“Of course the right was not unlimited, just as the*First Amendment*’s right of free speech was not, see,*e.g.,*United States*v.*Williams, 553 U.*S. ___ (2008). Thus, we do not read the*Second Amendment*to protect the right of citizens to carry arms for*any sort*of confrontation, just as we do not read the*First Amendment*to protect the right of citizens to speak for*any purpose.” ibid

The issue therefore is not whether government may place restrictions on the Second Amendment right – as certainly it may – but which of those restrictions comport with Second Amendment jurisprudence and which do not.

Just as one may not shout 'fire' in a crowded theater, so too one may not possess any weapon he so desires.
 
While also authorizing government to place restrictions on the Second Amendment right consistent with the Amendment's jurisprudence.

As the Heller Court explained: the rights enshrined in the Second Amendment are no more absolute that the rights enshrined in the First:

“Of course the right was not unlimited, just as the*First Amendment*’s right of free speech was not, see,*e.g.,*United States*v.*Williams, 553 U.*S. ___ (2008). Thus, we do not read the*Second Amendment*to protect the right of citizens to carry arms for*any sort*of confrontation, just as we do not read the*First Amendment*to protect the right of citizens to speak for*any purpose.” ibid

The issue therefore is not whether government may place restrictions on the Second Amendment right – as certainly it may – but which of those restrictions comport with Second Amendment jurisprudence and which do not.

Just as one may not shout 'fire' in a crowded theater, so too one may not possess any weapon he so desires.
One word: Bulltwinkle.

A citizen possessing any weapon is not anywhere near the same as shouting "fire" in a crowded theater. A more correct analogy would be "Just as one may not shout 'fire' in a crowded theater, so too one may not handle a firearm in an unsafe manner." The only limits on our rights come when our ACTIONS exercising that right infringe upon life, liberty or property of others. Please tell me how the mere possession of any firearm infringes upon the life, liberty or property of anyone.

Also, we have no "second amendment right" that they can regulate...the 2nd Amendment does not grant us a right, the right is an inherent human right that is only enumerated and guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment. Please point out in the Constitution where it grants the government the right to determine limits to our unalienable human rights. If you can't, then please refer to the 9th and 10th Amendments.

And I really don't care what SCOTUS has to say on the matter...this notion that one branch of the federal government can grant powers to another branch that are not specifically granted to either in the Constitution is a fraud that we have tolerated for far too long.
 
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The "fire" analogy is idiotic.

It is not illegal to use the word "fire" in a theater. The word "fire" is not banned.
 
I thought it was the McDonald decision, not Heller, that affirmed the 2nd amendment was an individual right?

No, the McDonald decision extended the 2nd Amendment (as interpreted in the Heller case) to the states, based on the 14th Amendment. But again, the McDonald decision was not as strong for gun rights as it could have been. The majority of the Court based its reasoning on "substantive due process" under the 14th Amendment. Only Justice Thomas would have overruled the Slaughterhouse cases and based the extension on the "privileges and immunities" clause of the 14th Amendment. That would have been a much better result for gun owners.
 
And I really don't care what SCOTUS has to say on the matter...this notion that one branch of the federal government can grant powers to another branch that are not specifically granted to either in the Constitution is a fraud that we have tolerated for far too long.

The way it works in practice is this:

"The Constitution is whatever the Supreme Court says it is."
 
It used to be that our laws where whatever the King or Parliament said they were too...our forefathers weren't buying it then and we shouldn't be today. The Constitution provides a mechanism to change it...judicial decree is not one of them. ;)
 
chipcom said:
....And I really don't care what SCOTUS has to say on the matter...this notion that one branch of the federal government can grant powers to another branch that are not specifically granted to either in the Constitution is a fraud that we have tolerated for far too long.
You apparently live in a fantasy world and have nothing meaningful to contribute to a serious discussion of what the law actually is and how things actually work in the real world.

The reality is that the Founding Fathers assigned to the federal courts the authority to exercise the judicial power of the United States to decide disagreements about what the Constitution means and how it applies (Article III, Sections 1 and 2):
Section 1.

The judicial power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish....​

Section 2.

The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under this Constitution,...​

The exercise of judicial power and the deciding of cases arising under the Constitution necessarily involves interpreting and applying the Constitution to the circumstances of the matter in controversy in order to decide the dispute. Many of the Founding Fathers were lawyers and well understood what the exercise of judicial power meant and entailed.

Thus if there is disagreement about whether a statute enacted by Congress applies to decide a controversy or the application of the statute is barred by the Constitution, the matter is one within the province of the federal courts to decide. As the Supreme Court ruled back in 1803 (Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. 137, 2 L. Ed. 60, 1 Cranch 137 (1803), 1 Cranch at 177 -- 178):
...It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is. Those who apply the rule to particular cases, must of necessity expound and interpret that rule. If two laws conflict with each other, the courts must decide on the operation of each.

So if a law be in opposition to the constitution; if both the law and the constitution apply to a particular case, so that the court must either decide that case conformably to the law, disregarding the constitution; or conformably to the constitution, disregarding the law; the court must determine which of these conflicting rules governs the case. This is of the very essence of judicial duty.

If then the courts are to regard the constitution; and the constitution is superior to any ordinary act of the legislature; the constitution, and not such ordinary act, must govern the case to which they both apply....

And so --

  • In its ruling in Marbury the Supreme Court was merely exercising its explicit authority given it in the Constitution to exercise judicial power to decide cases arising under the Constitution. In doing so and reaching its decision in Marbury it was applying established Common Law principles -- just as courts were, and are, expected to do.

  • And as Marshall pointed out, to decide the matter in Marbury the Court had to either sustain an act of Congress or conclude that the act of Congress was contrary to the Constitution, and thus sustain the Constitution. Either the act of Congress was valid, yielding one result, or it was invalid as conflicting with the Constitution, yielding a different result.

  • In other words, the Court could not, in Marbury, decide the case without choosing either a law enacted by Congress or the Constitution.

  • And without judicial review under the Constitution of acts of Congress or other actions of public officials, what would be the remedy for such a law or action that one believed was repugnant under the Constitution? Do we have a civil war over every disagreement about the constitutionality of a law? Does each person get to decide for himself whether a law is constitutional and therefore whether to abide by it?

The courts give deference to legislative acts and presume statutes valid and enforceable, until unconstitutionality is determined. As the Supreme Court said in Brown v. State of Maryland, 25 U.S. 419 (1827), at 437:
...It has been truly said, that the presumption is in favour of every legislative act, and that the whole burden of proof lies on him who denies its constitutionality....

And much more recently in U.S. v Morrison, 529 U.S. 598 (2000):
...Due respect for the decisions of a coordinate branch of Government demands that we invalidate a congressional enactment only upon a plain showing that Congress has exceeded its constitutional bounds. See United States v. Lopez, 514 U.S., at 568, 577_578 (Kennedy, J., concurring); United States v. Harris, 106 U.S., at 635. With this presumption of constitutionality in mind, we turn to the question whether §13981 falls within Congress' power under Article I, §8, of the Constitution....

So in the real world a statute is valid and enforceable unless and until it is found invalid by a court having appropriate jurisdiction. You might think the law is unconstitutional, and therefore invalid, but no one cares. Your belief in the unconstitutionality or invalid of a law keeps no one out of jail, nor does it have any effect on the lives and property of real people in the real world.

As Second Amendment jurisprudence matures post Heller/McDonald the Supreme Court will ultimately find certain regulation of the rights protected by the Second Amendment unconstitutional and others no doubt constitutionally permissible. In either case, its ruling will be based on precedent and established legal principles. And some people will complain that those rulings were flawed and erroneous, just as folks have complained about Brown v. Board of Education, Roe v. Wade, Heller, McDonald, and pretty much every Supreme Court decision of consequence.

So if one wishes to effectively and meaningfully argue about a regulation of the rights protected by the Second Amendment should be found unconstitutional, his arguments will need to be founded on the same types of bases, i. e., precedent and established legal principles. Arguments based on what might wish for or hope or want or like, or arguments based on a belief in unicorns, won't get anyone anywhere.

chipcom said:
...A citizen possessing any weapon is not anywhere near the same as shouting "fire" in a crowded theater....
Since you alluded to the First Amendment, let's consider the regulation of rights protected by the First Amendment. While the First Amendment protects freedom of speech, assembly and religion, we know there has been a history of certain regulation of speech, assembly and religion. A few examples are:

  1. Laws prohibiting such things as false advertising, fraud or misrepresentation, as well as laws requiring certain disclosures in connection with various transactions, would absolutely survive a challenge to their validity on Constitutional grounds even though such laws do impinge on the freedom of speech. Among other things, such laws serve compelling state interests related to promoting honest business and helping to preserve the integrity of commercial transactions. They tend to be only as broad as necessary to serve that function.

  2. If you are offering securities or certain other types of investments to the public, your written solicitation materials will have to first be approved prior to use by one or more regulatory agencies. If you are selling medicines in interstate commerce, your labeling will have to be approved in advance by the FDA, and you will have to have demonstrated, through hard, scientific data, that any claims or representations made are true. These are also laws that abridge freedom of speech, and yet they are regularly enforced.

  3. Laws respecting the time, place and manner of speech or assembly have also survived Constitutional challenges. Thus a municipality may require that organizers obtain a permit in order to hold an assembly or a parade and may prohibit such activities during, for example, the very early morning hours. Such regulations would be permitted only to the extent necessary to serve the compelling state interest of protecting public health and safety. Any such regulations, to be constitutionally permissible, could not consider the content of the speech or assembly; and they would need to be applied in an even handed manner based on set guidelines and not subject to the discretion of a public official. See, for example:

    • Hill v Colorado, 530 U.S. 703, 120 S.Ct. 2480, 147 L.Ed.2d 597 (2000), in which the Court, in upholding a Colorado law restricting protesting, educational or counseling activities within 100 feet of the entrance to a health facility, noted:
      ...We are likewise persuaded that the statute is "narrowly tailored" to serve those interests and that it leaves open ample alternative channels for communication. As we have emphasized on more than one occasion, when a content-neutral regulation does not entirely foreclose any means of communication, it may satisfy the tailoring requirement...

    • Santa Monica Food Not Bombs v. Santa Monica, 450 F.3d 1022 (9th Cir., 2006) in which the court upheld a Santa Monica ordinance requiring a permit for public assemblies. In fact in Santa Monica Food Not Bombs the court specifically acknowledges that the ordinance may burden the protected right, noting, at pg 1038:
      ...A narrowly-tailored permitting regulation need not be the least restrictive means of furthering a locality's asserted interests. The regulation may not, however, burden substantially more speech than necessary to achieve a scheme's important goals. See United States v. Baugh, 187 F.3d 1037, 1043 (9th Cir.1999). "[T]he requirement of narrow tailoring is satisfied `so long as the . . . regulation promotes a substantial government interest that would be achieved less effectively absent the regulation.'" Ward, 491 U.S. at 799, 109 S.Ct. 2746 (quoting United States v. Albertini, 472 U.S. 675, 689, 105 S.Ct. 2897, 86 L.Ed.2d 536 (1985))...

  4. In the leading case on prior restraint (Near v. State of Minnesota Olson, 283 U.S. 697, 51 S.Ct. 625, 75 L.Ed. 1357 (1931)) the Court in striking down a Minnesota statute allowing for the abatement, as a public nuisance, of malicious, scandalous and defamatory news analyzed in considerable detail and depth the scope and extent of the infringement of the freedom of press, the interests served and the availability of other and narrower remedies. And the Court then reached the conclusion that the statute went too far to be a permissible regulation.

    But nonetheless the Court also noted that certain interests, under certain circumstances would justify even prior restraint (Near, 283 U. S. 657, at 715 - 716):
    ...The objection has also been made that the principle as to immunity from previous restraint is stated too broadly, if every such restraint is deemed to be prohibited. That is undoubtedly true; the protection even as to previous restraint is not absolutely unlimited. But the limitation has been recognized only in exceptional cases. 'When a nation is at war many things that might be said in time of peace are such a hindrance to its error that their utterance will not be endured so long as men fight and that no Court could regard them as protected by any constitutional right.' Schenck v. United States, 249 U. S. 47, 52, 39 S. Ct. 247, 249, 63 L. Ed. 470. No one would question but that a government might prevent actual obstruction to its recruiting service or the publication of the sailing dates of transports or the number and location of troops.6 On similar grounds, the primary requirements of decency may be enforced against obscene publications. The security of the community life may be protected against incitements to acts of violence and the overthrow by force of orderly government. The constitutional guaranty of free speech does not 'protect a man from an injunction against uttering words that may have all the effect of force. Gompers v. Buck's Stove & Range Co., 221 U. S. 418, 139, 31 S. Ct. 492, 55 L. Ed. 797, 34 L. R. A. (N. S.) 874.' Schenck v. United States, supra. These limitations are not applicable here. Nor are we now concerned with questions as to the extent of authority to prevent publications in order to protect private rights according to the principles governing the exercise of the jurisdiction of courts of equity...

  5. In the past, laws prohibiting polygamy have been upheld against challenges that they violate the right to free exercise of religion (Davis v. Beason, 133 U.S. 333, 10 S.Ct. 299, 33 L.Ed. 637 (1890)).

  6. And let's consider the question of a tax on newspapers.

    1. For example, in Minneapolis Star and Tribune Company v. Minnesota Commissioner of Revenue, 460 U.S. 575, 103 S.Ct. 1365, 75 L.Ed.2d 295 (1983) the Supreme Court struck down on First Amendment grounds a Minnesota tax that affected only a few of the large newspaper publishers. And a major factor in the Court's decision was the differential nature of the tax.

    2. For example, the Court points out (Minneapolis Star and Tribune, 460 U. S. 575, at 581):
      ...Clearly, the First Amendment does not prohibit all regulation of the press. It is beyond dispute that the States and the Federal Government can subject newspapers to generally applicable economic regulations without creating constitutional problems. See, e.g., Citizens Publishing Co. v. United States, 394 U.S. 131, 139, 89 S.Ct. 927, 931, 22 L.Ed.2d 148 (1969) (antitrust laws); Lorain Journal Co. v. United States, 342 U.S. 143, 155-156, 72 S.Ct. 181, 187, 96 L.Ed. 162 (1951) (same); Breard v. Alexandria, 341 U.S. 622, 71 S.Ct. 921, 95 L.Ed. 1233 (1951) (prohibition of door-to-door solicitation); Oklahoma Press Publishing Co. v. Walling, 327 U.S. 186, 192-193, 66 S.Ct. 494, 497-98, 90 L.Ed. 614 (1946) (Fair Labor Standards Act); Mabee v. White Plains Publishing Co., 327 U.S. 178, 66 S.Ct. 511, 90 L.Ed. 607 (1946) (same); Associated Press v. United States, 326 U.S. 1, 6-7, 19-20, 65 S.Ct. 1416, 1418 1424, 89 L.Ed. 2013 (1945) (antitrust laws); Associated Press v. NLRB, 301 U.S. 103, 132-133, 57 S.Ct. 650, 656, 81 L.Ed. 953 (1937) (NLRA); see also Branzburg v. Hayes, 408 U.S. 665, 92 S.Ct. 2646, 33 L.Ed.2d 626 (1972) (enforcement of subpoenas). ...

    3. But in Minneapolis Star and Tribune (at 581):
      ...Minnesota, however, has not chosen to apply its general sales and use tax to newspapers. Instead, it has created a special tax that applies only to certain publications protected by the First Amendment. Although the State argues now that the tax on paper and ink is part of the general scheme of taxation, the use tax provision, quoted in note 2, supra, is facially discriminatory, singling out publications for treatment that is, to our knowledge, unique in Minnesota tax law.

      Minnesota's treatment of publications differs from that of other enterprises...

    4. However, the Court also admitted the possibility of a permissible regulatory tax (at 582):
      ...A tax that burdens rights protected by the First Amendment cannot stand unless the burden is necessary to achieve an overriding governmental interest....

So in fact the reality is that rights protected by the Constitution may nonetheless be subject to some limited regulation. The foregoing discussion of First Amendment jurisprudence serves the limited purpose of demonstrating that the courts do permit limited regulation of a constitutionally protected right. There are numerous examples of laws sustained by the courts which abridge freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of association, and freedom of religion. And First Amendment jurisprudence also offers some clues as to how such regulations will be evaluated by the courts.

We can not expect, nor will we see, perfect correspondence between the regulation of rights protected by the First Amendment and the regulation of rights protected by the Second Amendment. First Amendment jurisprudence is quite mature at this point, but Second Amendment jurisprudence, in the wake of Heller, is in its infancy. However, we can expect some regulation of Second Amendment rights to be upheld by the courts.
 
You apparently live in a fantasy world and have nothing meaningful to contribute to a serious discussion of what the law actually is and how things actually work in the real world.

The reality is that the Founding Fathers assigned to the federal courts the authority to exercise the judicial power of the United States to decide disagreements about what the Constitution means and how it applies (Article III, Sections 1 and 2):

The exercise of judicial power and the deciding of cases arising under the Constitution necessarily involves interpreting and applying the Constitution to the circumstances of the matter in controversy in order to decide the dispute. Many of the Founding Fathers were lawyers and well understood what the exercise of judicial power meant and entailed.

Thus if there is disagreement about whether a statute enacted by Congress applies to decide a controversy or the application of the statute is barred by the Constitution, the matter is one within the province of the federal courts to decide. As the Supreme Court ruled back in 1803 (Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. 137, 2 L. Ed. 60, 1 Cranch 137 (1803), 1 Cranch at 177 -- 178):

And so --

  • In its ruling in Marbury the Supreme Court was merely exercising its explicit authority given it in the Constitution to exercise judicial power to decide cases arising under the Constitution. In doing so and reaching its decision in Marbury it was applying established Common Law principles -- just as courts were, and are, expected to do.

  • And as Marshall pointed out, to decide the matter in Marbury the Court had to either sustain an act of Congress or conclude that the act of Congress was contrary to the Constitution, and thus sustain the Constitution. Either the act of Congress was valid, yielding one result, or it was invalid as conflicting with the Constitution, yielding a different result.

  • In other words, the Court could not, in Marbury, decide the case without choosing either a law enacted by Congress or the Constitution.

  • And without judicial review under the Constitution of acts of Congress or other actions of public officials, what would be the remedy for such a law or action that one believed was repugnant under the Constitution? Do we have a civil war over every disagreement about the constitutionality of a law? Does each person get to decide for himself whether a law is constitutional and therefore whether to abide by it?

The courts give deference to legislative acts and presume statutes valid and enforceable, until unconstitutionality is determined. As the Supreme Court said in Brown v. State of Maryland, 25 U.S. 419 (1827), at 437:

And much more recently in U.S. v Morrison, 529 U.S. 598 (2000):

So in the real world a statute is valid and enforceable unless and until it is found invalid by a court having appropriate jurisdiction. You might think the law is unconstitutional, and therefore invalid, but no one cares. Your belief in the unconstitutionality or invalid of a law keeps no one out of jail, nor does it have any effect on the lives and property of real people in the real world.

As Second Amendment jurisprudence matures post Heller/McDonald the Supreme Court will ultimately find certain regulation of the rights protected by the Second Amendment unconstitutional and others no doubt constitutionally permissible. In either case, its ruling will be based on precedent and established legal principles. And some people will complain that those rulings were flawed and erroneous, just as folks have complained about Brown v. Board of Education, Roe v. Wade, Heller, McDonald, and pretty much every Supreme Court decision of consequence.

So if one wishes to effectively and meaningfully argue about a regulation of the rights protected by the Second Amendment should be found unconstitutional, his arguments will need to be founded on the same types of bases, i. e., precedent and established legal principles. Arguments based on what might wish for or hope or want or like, or arguments based on a belief in unicorns, won't get anyone anywhere.

Since you alluded to the First Amendment, let's consider the regulation of rights protected by the First Amendment. While the First Amendment protects freedom of speech, assembly and religion, we know there has been a history of certain regulation of speech, assembly and religion. A few examples are:

  1. Laws prohibiting such things as false advertising, fraud or misrepresentation, as well as laws requiring certain disclosures in connection with various transactions, would absolutely survive a challenge to their validity on Constitutional grounds even though such laws do impinge on the freedom of speech. Among other things, such laws serve compelling state interests related to promoting honest business and helping to preserve the integrity of commercial transactions. They tend to be only as broad as necessary to serve that function.

  2. If you are offering securities or certain other types of investments to the public, your written solicitation materials will have to first be approved prior to use by one or more regulatory agencies. If you are selling medicines in interstate commerce, your labeling will have to be approved in advance by the FDA, and you will have to have demonstrated, through hard, scientific data, that any claims or representations made are true. These are also laws that abridge freedom of speech, and yet they are regularly enforced.

  3. Laws respecting the time, place and manner of speech or assembly have also survived Constitutional challenges. Thus a municipality may require that organizers obtain a permit in order to hold an assembly or a parade and may prohibit such activities during, for example, the very early morning hours. Such regulations would be permitted only to the extent necessary to serve the compelling state interest of protecting public health and safety. Any such regulations, to be constitutionally permissible, could not consider the content of the speech or assembly; and they would need to be applied in an even handed manner based on set guidelines and not subject to the discretion of a public official. See, for example:

    • Hill v Colorado, 530 U.S. 703, 120 S.Ct. 2480, 147 L.Ed.2d 597 (2000), in which the Court, in upholding a Colorado law restricting protesting, educational or counseling activities within 100 feet of the entrance to a health facility, noted:

    • Santa Monica Food Not Bombs v. Santa Monica, 450 F.3d 1022 (9th Cir., 2006) in which the court upheld a Santa Monica ordinance requiring a permit for public assemblies. In fact in Santa Monica Food Not Bombs the court specifically acknowledges that the ordinance may burden the protected right, noting, at pg 1038:

  4. In the leading case on prior restraint (Near v. State of Minnesota Olson, 283 U.S. 697, 51 S.Ct. 625, 75 L.Ed. 1357 (1931)) the Court in striking down a Minnesota statute allowing for the abatement, as a public nuisance, of malicious, scandalous and defamatory news analyzed in considerable detail and depth the scope and extent of the infringement of the freedom of press, the interests served and the availability of other and narrower remedies. And the Court then reached the conclusion that the statute went too far to be a permissible regulation.

    But nonetheless the Court also noted that certain interests, under certain circumstances would justify even prior restraint (Near, 283 U. S. 657, at 715 - 716):

  5. In the past, laws prohibiting polygamy have been upheld against challenges that they violate the right to free exercise of religion (Davis v. Beason, 133 U.S. 333, 10 S.Ct. 299, 33 L.Ed. 637 (1890)).

  6. And let's consider the question of a tax on newspapers.

    1. For example, in Minneapolis Star and Tribune Company v. Minnesota Commissioner of Revenue, 460 U.S. 575, 103 S.Ct. 1365, 75 L.Ed.2d 295 (1983) the Supreme Court struck down on First Amendment grounds a Minnesota tax that affected only a few of the large newspaper publishers. And a major factor in the Court's decision was the differential nature of the tax.

    2. For example, the Court points out (Minneapolis Star and Tribune, 460 U. S. 575, at 581):

    3. But in Minneapolis Star and Tribune (at 581):

    4. However, the Court also admitted the possibility of a permissible regulatory tax (at 582):

So in fact the reality is that rights protected by the Constitution may nonetheless be subject to some limited regulation. The foregoing discussion of First Amendment jurisprudence serves the limited purpose of demonstrating that the courts do permit limited regulation of a constitutionally protected right. There are numerous examples of laws sustained by the courts which abridge freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of association, and freedom of religion. And First Amendment jurisprudence also offers some clues as to how such regulations will be evaluated by the courts.

We can not expect, nor will we see, perfect correspondence between the regulation of rights protected by the First Amendment and the regulation of rights protected by the Second Amendment. First Amendment jurisprudence is quite mature at this point, but Second Amendment jurisprudence, in the wake of Heller, is in its infancy. However, we can expect some regulation of Second Amendment rights to be upheld by the courts.
Whether you or SCOTUS agree or take my opinions seriously are no more relevant to me than the agreement or consideration of Parliament or King George was to Samuel Adams...who was not a lawyer. No offense, but while lawyers can be tools to help effect change and justice, they are rarely the catalysts.
 
chipcom said:
Whether you or SCOTUS agree or take my opinions seriously are no more relevant to me than the agreement or consideration of Parliament or King George....
Nor are your opinions relevant to a serious discussion of what the law is and how things work in the real world. And the world will continue to go about its business without any consideration of what you think.

The reality is that the opinions of courts on matters of law affect the lives and property of real people in real life. Your opinions on such matters and $2.00 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

In any case, here we are concerned with real life in the real world -- not with alternate realities.

denton said:
The "fire" analogy is idiotic.

It is not illegal to use the word "fire" in a theater. The word "fire" is not banned.

Further, both Justice Holmes and SCOTUS backed away from their statement later on.
Perhaps, but I'm sure we'd all appreciate a citation.
 
Indeed, the Revolution was not so much a Revolution as it was a war of secession.

The war escalated into a much wider and deadlier conflict in 1778 with Britain combating France, Spain, and the Netherlands. This assisted in the victory of the Americans (realized in the 1783 Treaty of Paris).
 
Originally Posted by natman
...The Revolutionary War was started to keep the British from confiscating arms at Lexington and Concord....

Not really. That might have been the first military engagement of the Revolutionary War, but it was not the cause or the reason.
....
Tensions between the occupying British and the Colonialists had been increasing leading up to Lexington and Concord. The British sought to head off armed resistance by confiscating guns and munitions stockpiled at Lexington and Concord. Instead, the British tactic was a catalyst that opened active hostilities.

I agree. When I said the attempted arms confiscation "started" the war, I meant it in the sense it was the straw that broke the camel's back, not that it was the sole or even a primary underlying cause. Catalyzed is an excellent way of putting it.

Regardless, private control of arms was enough of a priority that it is inconsistent to contend that the authors of the Bill of Rights intended for the people to only be allowed arms when under the control of the government.
 
natman said:
...private control of arms was enough of a priority that it is inconsistent to contend that the authors of the Bill of Rights intended for the people to only be allowed arms when under the control of the government.
True. Indeed the notion of a private right to keep and bear arms was at the time firmly entrenched in English law.

See Guns and Violence, the English Experience (Harvard University Press, 2004) and To Keep and Bear Arms: The Origins of an Anglo-American Right (Harvard University Press, 1996), both by Joyce Lee Malcolm.
 
Perhaps, but I'm sure we'd all appreciate a citation.

That's a fair request.

The original quote is dicta from U.S. v. Schenk.

Schenk was overturned in 1969 by Brandenburg v. Ohio.

Holmes seems to have backed away from his Schenk position with his dissent in Abrams v. United States and in other decisions. As I read it, his later thinking was more aligned with what we have today.
 
denton said:
Perhaps, but I'm sure we'd all appreciate a citation.

That's a fair request.

The original quote is dicta from U.S. v. Schenk.

Schenk was overturned in 1969 by Brandenburg v. Ohio.

Holmes seems to have backed away from his Schenk position with his dissent in Abrams v. United States and in other decisions. As I read it, his later thinking was more aligned with what we have today.
Thanks. I appreciate having those citations. Now I'll do some reading.
 
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