Conservative Cir. Judges Against RTKBA

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This Article was in the NY Times today.

I am shocked at how Posner discounts Heller and re-argues everything SCOTUS already settled.

It might be a longer road than we all thought challenging the Chicago gun ban. :barf:


Links Below:

Justices’ Ruling on Guns Faces Attacks, From the Right

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By ADAM LIPTAK
Published: October 20, 2008

WASHINGTON — Four months after the Supreme Court ruled that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess guns, its decision is under assault — from the right.

Two prominent federal appeals court judges say that Justice Antonin Scalia’s majority opinion in the case, District of Columbia v. Heller, is illegitimate, activist, poorly reasoned and fueled by politics rather than principle. The 5-to-4 decision in Heller struck down parts of a District of Columbia gun control law.

The judges used what in conservative legal circles are the ultimate fighting words: They said the gun ruling was a right-wing version of Roe v. Wade, the 1973 decision that identified a constitutional right to abortion. Justice Scalia has said that Roe had no basis in the Constitution and amounted to a judicial imposition of a value judgment that should have been left to state legislatures.

Comparisons of the two decisions, then, seemed calculated to sting.

“The Roe and Heller courts are guilty of the same sins,” one of the two appeals court judges, J. Harvie Wilkinson III, wrote in an article to be published in the spring in The Virginia Law Review.

Similarly, Judge Richard A. Posner, in an article in The New Republic in August, wrote that Heller’s failure to allow the political process to work out varying approaches to gun control that were suited to local conditions “was the mistake that the Supreme Court made when it nationalized abortion rights in Roe v. Wade.”

Sharp criticism of a recent Supreme Court decision by federal appeals court judges is quite unusual, though these two judges — both Reagan appointees — are more outspoken than most.

Judge Wilkinson, who sits on the United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit, in Richmond, Va., was recently considered for a spot on the Supreme Court. Judge Posner, of the Seventh Circuit, in Chicago, is perhaps the most influential judge not on the Supreme Court.

Not all conservatives agree with the critics, of course. Robert A. Levy, a libertarian lawyer who was a principal architect of the victorious strategy in the Heller case, rejected the comparison to Roe.

The two sides in the Heller case claimed to rely on the original meaning of the Second Amendment, based on analysis of its text in light of historical materials. The amendment says, “A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.”

The more liberal justices said the amendment protected only a collective right tied to state militias, thus allowing most gun control laws. The more conservative justices found an individual right and struck down parts of a District of Columbia gun control law.

In Judge Wilkinson’s view, the upshot of the court’s extensive historical analysis was that “both sides fought into overtime to a draw.”

Others said the quality of the combat was low. “Neither of the two main opinions in Heller would pass muster as serious historical writing,” Jack Rakove, a historian at Stanford, wrote on the blog Balkinization soon after the decision was issued.

The strong reaction from the right after Heller was preceded, with a sort of symmetry, by liberal support for an individual-rights reading of the Second Amendment. For much of the 20th century, the conventional view of the amendment had been that it only protects a collective right. (Warren E. Burger, after retiring as chief justice in 1986, called the individual rights view “one of the greatest pieces of fraud — I repeat the word ‘fraud’ — on the American public by special interest groups that I have ever seen.”)

But some prominent liberal law professors, including Laurence H. Tribe of Harvard, Akhil Reed Amar of Yale and Sanford Levinson of the University of Texas, have concluded, sometimes reluctantly, that the amendment in fact protects an individual right. Professor Levinson’s seminal 1989 article in The Yale Law Journal captured the tone of the enterprise. It was called “The Embarrassing Second Amendment.”

In an interview, Professor Levinson said, “The result in Heller is eminently respectable.” But he added that he understood why some conservatives were upset. “People say the Roe court was too interventionist,” he said. “So is the Heller court from that perspective.”

Judge Wilkinson’s basic critique is that the majority, like that in Roe, used an ambiguous text to impose its policy preference on the nation, at great cost to the democratic process and to local values. He assumed, as most experts do, that the decision would apply to the states.

“In both Roe and Heller,” Judge Wilkinson wrote, “the court claimed to find in the Constitution the authority to overrule the wishes of the people’s representatives. In both cases, the constitutional text did not clearly mandate the result, and the court had discretion to decide the case either way.”

Judge Posner built on themes in his recent book “How Judges Think,” which argued that constitutional adjudication by the Supreme Court is largely and necessarily political. The Heller decision, he wrote in The New Republic, “is evidence that the Supreme Court, in deciding constitutional cases, exercises a freewheeling discretion strongly flavored with ideology.”

Indeed, Judge Wilkinson wrote, “Some observers may be tempted to view Heller as a revenge of sorts for Roe” or “a sort of judicial tit-for-tat.” As Judge Posner put it, “The idea behind the decision” in Heller “may simply be that turnabout is fair play.”

Mr. Levy, who helped win Heller, said some conservatives wanted almost all decisions to be made by the political branches rather than the courts.

“But these are constitutional rights,” Mr. Levy, now chairman of the Cato Institute, a libertarian research group, said of the rights protected by the Second Amendment. “They are not rights consigned to the legislature.”

The analogy to Roe, he went on, is misguided. There is no reference to abortion in the Constitution.

The Second Amendment, by contrast, indisputably protects a right to keep and bear arms, though there is sharp disagreement about the scope of the right. Mr. Levy said the natural reading of the amendment, one supported by historical materials, was that it protected an individual right.

In his article, Judge Wilkinson wrote that he “readily agreed” that Roe “involved the more brazen assertion of judicial authority.” But he added that the Roe and Heller cases shared a number of common flaws, including “a failure to respect legislative judgments,” “a rejection of the principles of federalism” and “a willingness to embark on a complex endeavor that will require fine-tuning over many years of litigation.”

Judge Wilkinson saved particular scorn for a brief passage in Justice Scalia’s opinion that seemed to endorse a variety of restrictions on gun ownership. “Nothing in our opinion,” Justice Scalia wrote, “should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.”

Whatever else may be said about the Second Amendment, Judge Wilkinson wrote, those presumptions have no basis in the Constitution. “The Constitution’s text,” he wrote, “has as little to say about restrictions on firearm ownership by felons as it does about the trimesters of pregnancy.”

Mr. Levy, too, said he was not a fan of the passage. “I would have preferred that that not have been there,” he said. “It created more confusion than light.”

It is too soon to say much about the legacy of Heller. But Judge Wilkinson said that Heller, at a minimum, represented “the worst of missed opportunities — the chance to ground conservative jurisprudence in enduring and consistent principles of restraint.” At worst, he warned, “There is now a real risk that the Second Amendment will damage conservative judicial philosophy” as much as Roe “damaged its liberal counterpart.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/21/washington/21guns.html?hp=&pagewanted=all

http://www.tnr.com/booksarts/story.html?id=d2f38db8-3c8a-477e-bd0a-5bd56de0e7c0&p=2

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract-id=1265118
 
See, it's what I've been saying all along. The legal system, liberal or conservative, is full of jackasses.
 
Choose a cause, no matter how assine, and a lobby will form

I am going to start a powerful coalitition against the killing of house mice within one's home. Those cute, little critters have every right to survive and prosper. Victor mouse traps are TOO Efficient of KILLERS, and must be banned! I expect a multi-million dollar backing to prevent cruelty to house mice. They don't eat much, and create a little liveliness within otherwise mundane households. cliffy, the serious mouse-lover
 
Of course, Heller was centered around something actually in the BOR.

Roe was an inference (right to abortion) premised on another constitutional inference (right to privacy).
 
Gun Control can always be enhanced by using both hands

Gun Control is primarily People Control. The difference betwixt Freedom and Slavery is a fine line worth fighting for, regarding America's ultimate freedom or slavery issue. One may be opposed to firearms, but how many people are opposed to freedom: Freedom of speech, freedom from randon rape, and freedom of American spirit. It's apparently a fine line coming to fruition with November's vote. I find this far beyond a SAD issue. cliffy
 
The RKBA has never been a liberal or a conservative issue... its always been a personal thing...


Its only the decades of hard bipartaisn politics that has made it seem that way.
 
Can anyone, including any jackass judges, please explain to me how you have a COLLECTIVE right stuck at the top of the Bill of PERSONAL Rights?

Seriously. This is what scares me about my fellow gun owners; many of them either don't understand where we are at for gun rights, where we are headed, or they just don't care.

A NARROW 5-4 victory over something as fundamental and straightforward as the 2nd amendment, scares the bejeezus out of me.

Go with whatever cliche you want, but:

Keep your ammo dry...

Buy them cheap, stack them deep...

Remember the Alamo... :D

I don't care what you say, but we have a fight ahead of us for at least the next 4 years with legislation and probably 25 to 30 on the Supreme Court.
 
Of course, Heller was centered around something actually in the BOR.

Roe was an inference (right to abortion) premised on another constitutional inference (right to privacy).

While I don't really mind Roe v. Wade, and I wish that there was more "activism" that favored rights instead of explaining them away, this is the point I was going to make.

Interpreting the explicit 2nd Amendment per the original public meaning has nothing whatsoever to do with the objections that conservative jurisprudence has with Roe v. Wade.

There's NOTHING conservative about allowing laws to be made that contradict with the Constitution as written, simply because one likes those laws. And the idea that local jurisdictions should be able to do whatever they want in the name of Federalism was never meant to apply to actions that explicitly violate the Constitution.

Here's the litmus test I'd like to see: can the same philosophy be applied to free speech, a free press, freedom of religion, search and seizure, etc.? Would it be constitutional to just let local jurisdictions throw people in prison for political speech? No. Then why is it "activist" to enforce the 2nd Amendment as written?

(Or if the answer they'd give is "Yes" then why are these justices on the bench?)
 
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Similarly, Judge Richard A. Posner, in an article in The New Republic in August, wrote that Heller’s failure to allow the political process to work out varying approaches to gun control that were suited to local conditions “was the mistake that the Supreme Court made when it nationalized abortion rights in Roe v. Wade.”
I guess he also thinks that Brown v. Board of Education failed to "allow the political process to work out varying approaches to racial segregation".
 
Not to be too snarky but I think the relevant phrases in the article are....


Judge Wilkinson, who sits on the United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit, in Richmond, Va., was recently considered for a spot on the Supreme Court. Judge Posner, of the Seventh Circuit, in Chicago, is perhaps the most influential judge not on the Supreme Court.

"They won't let me play as one of the big boys so the big boys must be wrong......"
 
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Interpreting the explicit 2nd Amendment per the original public meaning has nothing whatsoever to do with the objections that conservative jurisprudence has with Roe v. Wade.

Exactly. He only mentions Roe v. Wade for precedent because it will deflect attention on his ruling. Many people feel very strongly one way or the other about Roe v. Wade, and it is up to the courts to decide the issue.
The 2nd however is completely different. The 2nd is specificly mentioned in the Bill of Rights.
The Bill of individual Rights all citizens of the US have.

Unlike abortion which is never specificly cited in the Bill of Rights one way or another, and hence is left to the courts, the Right to Keep and Bear Arms is mentioned, and its meaning at the time is well discussed by the founding fathers responsible for putting it in place.
There is little need for court interpretation.
This judge comparing the two is done purely for political support of his decision.

Arguing against something specificly mentioned in the Bill of Rights by citing interpretations of a highly controversal issue not directly addressed by the Bill of Rights is a deceptive ploy.

He essentialy trying to align support of his decision in this completely seperate issue based on strong views of Roe v. Wade held by much of the population, rather than the issue at hand. The reason for that is clear.
Complete smoke and mirrors.
 
Looking back at my post, MAN my grammar sucked right there, I'll tell ya what.

It's interesting to note that, AFAIK, Ruth Bader Ginzburg has said that Roe v. Wade was poor jurisprudence (not that she dislikes the outcome, but that when you study the case and read the decision, it was poorly done). She also acknowledged that the 2nd Amendment secures an individual right, though she fudged by saying that a handgun ban didn't obliterate that right completely.

So we're not just talking about conservative judges who don't care for how Roe was justified, or that the 2nd Amendment means something at least akin to what it seems to mean.

Seems to me, like you said, that the above stuff is "complete smoke and mirrors", and that, as everallm says, it has more to do with a judge trying to stroke his ego in the New Republic.
 
The litmus test I use

Both in personal life and over at DailyKos (I'm "Leftie Gunner" over there) is this:

Substitute the word "book" for the word "gun". Would you still support it?

You'd be surprised how many get it.

--Shannon
 
For much of the 20th century, the conventional view of the amendment had been that it only protects a collective right.

SCOTUS just ruled and the judges are already trying to ignore a 9-0 precedent.

Can anything possibly kill this collective rights idea??
 
When I read many of these judicial opinions I see EGO, EGO, EGO, and am reminded of the fact that nearly ALL of these judges are street lawyers with just a week or two of additional training in baby judge school!

Man, there really should be a different track for training judges that involves more than just the three years of law school, or at least something coming close to a doctoral level of education, since it is a vital position for a functioning society.
 
The Heller opinion was blatant judicial activism. The object of the Second Amendment was to remove "all room for doubt or uneasiness upon the subject" "that Congress should neglect to provide for" arming the militia.

The convention of Virginia...proposed the following amendment to the constitution; "that each state respectively should have the power to provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining it's own militia, whenever congress should neglect to provide for the same"... all room for doubt, or uneasiness upon the subject, seems to be completely removed, by the fourth article of amendments to the constitution, since ratified, viz. "That a militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep, and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

--Saint George Tucker; commenting on Article 1 - Section 8 - Clause 12 of the U. S. Constitution; 1803
**********************

St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries 1:App. 272--75

The objects of this clause of the constitution, although founded upon the principle of our state bill of rights, Art. 8, declaring, "that a well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state," were thought to be dangerous to the state governments. The convention of Virginia, therefore, proposed the following amendment to the constitution; "that each state respectively should have the power to provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining it's own militia, whenever congress should neglect to provide for the same." . . . A further amendment proposed, was, "that the militia should not be subject to martial law, except when in actual service, in time of war, rebellion, or invasion." . . . A provision manifestly implied in the words of the constitution. As to the former of these amendments, all room for doubt, or uneasiness upon the subject, seems to be completely removed, by the fourth article of amendments to the constitution, since ratified, viz. "That a militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep, and bear arms, shall not be infringed." . . . To which we may add, that the power of arming the militia, not being prohibited to the states, respectively, by the constitution, is, consequently, reserved to them, concurrently with the federal government. In pursuance of these powers, an act passed, 2 Cong. 1 Sess. c. 33, to provide for the national defence, by establishing an uniform militia throughout the United States; and the system of organization thereby established, has been carried into effect in Virginia, and probably in all the other states of the union.

--Saint George Tucker; commenting on Article 1 - Section 8 - Clause 12 of the U. S. Constitution; 1803​

*******************

Saint George Tucker was acknowledged as the finest legal mind in Virginia during the early days of the Republic. He was a personal friend and political ally of Thomas Jefferson and James Madison. Tucker held the most respected law school position in Virginia and James Madison made him a U. S. District Judge. He is considered to be the foremost expositor of Jeffersonian Republicanism.
 
Conservative Cir. Judges Against RTKBA
I've started this new group guys, conservative judges against conservative values. We're very conservative, it's just that we oppose anything conservative.

Seriously, "the people" refers to an individual right, unless the rights to freedom of religion, and free speech, and to not be unreasonably searched and not have troops in our house are "collective".
and it is up to the courts to decide the issue.
"Among these are the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". That ruling took away all 3.
 
Tucker's commentary does not take something into account.

Virginia proposed a lot of things. See http://www.constitution.org/bor/amdvacon.htm for exactly what.

The state of Virginia didn't have the final say regarding what was included, how it was worded, and what the other 12 states intended it to mean. Virginia's proposal led to their being what we call the Bill of Rights, but the proposal itself was not adopted as-is, by any stretch of the imagination.

Congress of the late 18th Century is not too different from what it is now. Someone introduces a bill, and if it gets past the starting gate, it gets amended, changed, and finally voted on.

While Virginians may have wanted to believe that the text and/or intent of their proposals were authoritative, that assertion is plainly ridiculous.

AFAIK Blackstone is alone among his contemporaries, in his interpretation of the 2nd Amendment. There is a reason for this. He took Tucker at his word, that Virginia's proposals were the authority for interpreting Federal legislation. Apparently, nobody else did.

Finally, Tucker's friendship with Jefferson doesn't imply that Tucker's words are Jefferson's. Jefferson and Adams also ended up good friends, though their political relationship had been adversarial to the extreme.

Using Blackstone's words alone, without acknowledging that he was alone among his contemporaries, in his opinion on this, is disingenuous.

In fact, Blackstone himself might be the earliest example of a would-be "judicial activist" on the Federal bench. Maybe not, but the possibility most certainly exists, given the discrepancy between his interpretation of the 2nd Amendment and that of his contemporaries. But then, I don't believe he ever ruled on such a case in court, so there's no way to know.
 
M_Jagger

The Heller opinion was blatant judicial activism.

Incorrect.

The object of the Second Amendment was to remove "all room for doubt or uneasiness upon the subject" "that Congress should neglect to provide for" arming the militia.

Also incorrect. Now lets look at your sources which you use to support your faulty conclusion:The convention of Virginia...proposed the following amendment to the constitution;

"that each state respectively should have the power to provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining it's own militia, whenever congress should neglect to provide for the same"... all room for doubt, or uneasiness upon the subject, seems to be completely removed, by the fourth article of amendments to the constitution, since ratified, viz. "That a militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep, and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

--Saint George Tucker; commenting on Article 1 - Section 8 - Clause 12 of the U. S. Constitution; 1803

That is a fact, and it is powerful evidence that the 2nd is not meant to address that particular issue. The Virginia ratifying convention proposed several amendments to the constitution. The first group of proposed amendments were categorized under the following heading: "That there be a declaration or bill of rights asserting, and securing from encroachment, the essential and unalienable rights of the people, in some such manner as the following: — Under this group of amendments was included the provision which eventually became the 2nd Amend, to wit: 17th. That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state; that standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, and therefore ought to be avoided, as far as the circumstances and protection of the community will admit; and that, in all cases, the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power. Compare this language with the language used by Madison for the 2nd... there can be no doubt that Madison was using Sec 17 of the Virginia proposed Bill of Rights as the template for the 2nd... Now Virginia also proposed additional amendments to the constitution which were not included in their proposed Bill of Rights. The portion was seperately numbered and begins under the following heading: [I]AMENDMENTS TO THE CONSTITUTION. [/I] Within that group was this: 11th. That each state respectively shall have the power to provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining its own militia, whensoever Congress shall omit or neglect to provide for the same. That the militia shall not be subject to martial law, except when in actual service, in time of war, invasion, or rebellion; and when not in the actual service of the United States, shall be subject only to such fines, penalties, and punishments, as shall be directed or inflicted by the laws of its own state.

http://www.constitution.org/rc/rat_va_23.htm

OK, you have 2 seperate provisions in the same document. One is became the framework from which the 2nd was born, the other was not. One is included within a group described as the essential unalienable rights of the people. The other is within the group of amendments to the constitution and not part of the group described as the essential unalienable rights of the people.... Now apply your rules of construction. You have 2 seperate provisions in the same document, they can not logically have the same meaning as one would be merely duplicative of the other.

Your esteem for Saint George Tucker is shared by me. However, you are falling into a trap which is oftentimes followed by others who wish to have the individual nature of the 2nd disappear. The comments you are using are in the context of Article 1, Sec 8, paragraphs 15-16... to wit, the militia clauses. Consider, if you will, commentary or debate on a public housing bill and specifically a provision of the bill allowing governmental inspections of the premises. If that is the only thing you look at, you may well conclude that the 4th amend is only applicable to public housing units...

Now let us see what Tucker has to say when he is directly addressing the 2nd Amend:

The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed – this may be considered as the palladium of liberty. The right of self defense is the first law of nature. In most governments it has been the study of rulers to abridge this right with the narrowest limits. Where ever standing armies are kept up & the right of the people to bear arms is by any means or under any colour whatsoever prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated is in danger of being so. – In England the people have been disarmed under the speciouspretext of preserving the game. By the alluring idea, the landed aristocracy have been brought to side with the Court in a measure evidently calculated to check the effect of any ferment which the measures of government may produce in the minds of the people. -- The Game laws are a consolation for the government, a rattle for the gentry, and a rack for the nation.

The first law of nature is a direct reference to the political philosopher Hobbes referring to the individual right of self defense, and does not implicate state militias whatsoever. The Game Acts referred to, disarmed individuals of their individual weapons used for hunting and did not relate to militias.

In short, I am afraid your foundation is built upon sand and will not stand scrutiny.
 
legaleagle, don't bother. "M Jagger" is an anti-troll, as evidenced by his history (which is dedicated to attacking Heller).
 
legaleagle, don't bother. "M Jagger" is an anti-troll, as evidenced by his history (which is dedicated to attacking Heller).

Perhaps, but since he is regurgitating the dissent in Heller, I felt it appropriate to provide a proper response, which demolishes his arguement.:cool:
 
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