Co-worker receiving family firearms across state lines--NY to PA

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orpington

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A co-worker is receiving firearms from her father, and he lives in New York and she lives in Pennsylvania. Presumably there are revolvers as well as long-arms, all of which is over 50 years old, some of which is pre-1899. Her drive would be from New York to Pennsylvania, with no other states involved. Pre-1899, whether longarm or revolver, is "antique" (and, therefore, by definition, not even a firearm) and would not be a problem, correct? I know New York laws are sometimes different than anywhere else. With regards to the post-1898 firearms: Is there any problem transporting from New York to Pennsylvania? And, finally, the post-1898 revolvers, if any: Do they have to go through an FFL? It is simply a transfer from elderly father to daughter.
 
I am not a lawyer, but I believe that the post-1898 firearms would have to be transferred through an FFL because it is an interstate transfer. They would have to go through a Pennsylvania FFL.

She should NOT take possession of the modern handguns in NY State. Without a NY pistol permit -- which she can't get because she's not a resident -- she would be committing a felony.
 
EVERY FIREARM (post 1898) MUST BE TRANSFERRED THROUGH AN FFL DEALER when crossing state lines.

There are two exceptions but she doesn't fall into either of them. If there are handguns involved, the dealer must be in HER state (as she is the "transferee") but that's a moot point as she couldn't take possession of the handguns in NY state anyway.


Here's how the exceptions COULD apply to her, if they so choose:

1) She could ask her father to make sure they are specifically listed in his will as going directly to her. Then, ONCE HE DIES, the executor of his will may transfer the guns directly to her without an FFL involved. ... That's complicated by the fact that she STILL couldn't possess the handguns in NY State, but if the executor brought them to her it could work.

2) She could spend the $30 and a little bit of paperwork and get her Type 03 federal firearms license for collectors of curios and relics. Then, since the guns are all over 50 years old (FOR SURE?) the guns could be sent directly to her, under her Collector's license.
 
Well, I specifically asked this to get it in writing. I suspected that ALL pre 1899 antiques would not be a problem. I suspected all post 1898 handguns would require an FFL. I wasn't sure about the longarms though. Suspected it might be better if she was willed them vs being given them now. What if she were to purchase all longarms from her father for $1 apiece? Then they are are brought here, as her own possessions. From what I can gather, there is no restriction from crossing state lines with a rifle. I think someone can purchase a Winchester 1894 produced circa 1915 from a collector at my local Pennsylvania show without an FFL. They are free to go home, whether or not home is 10 minutes away, or home is New York or Maryland, etc... This would be a similar scenario, right?
 
orpington said:
I think someone can purchase a Winchester 1894 produced circa 1915 from a collector at my local Pennsylvania show without an FFL. They are free to go home, whether or not home is 10 minutes away, or home is New York or Maryland, etc...
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To the best of my knowledge, that is not correct. They are not residents of the same state, so the firearm must be transferred through an FFL. If the collector selling the rifle is an FFL, that's a different story.
 
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What if she were to purchase all longarms from her father for $1 apiece?
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Purchases and gifts are all handled exactly the same way. They are all "transfers." Doesn't matter if there is money exchanged and doesn't matter if the transferor and transferee are family.

Then they are are brought here, as her own possessions.
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The problem is the actual TRANSFER. That is, giving of possession from one person to another. That is the federally regulated part of the exchange.

From what I can gather, there is no restriction from crossing state lines with a rifle.
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"Crossing" state lines may mean different things. Let's be specific. You may carry your own firearms from one state to another at will (subject to individual state law). You cannot TRANSFER firearms to another person if that person resides in a different state from you, without going through an FFL. You may also not receive firearms from someone in another state without going through an FFL.

I listed for you the two ways your friend and her dad could do this without involving an FFL. There are no other ways.

I think someone can purchase a Winchester 1894 produced circa 1915 from a collector at my local Pennsylvania show without an FFL.
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If they are a PA resident, YES. If they are a resident of any other state, NO.

They MAY purchase a rifle or shotgun from a DEALER (FFL) at that show and take it home with them. (But not a handgun.)
 
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(As an aside: Be prepared to have this information received with a blank stare and then, "Oh, that can't be right..." and then they go do whatever they want to do. MOST Americans have absolutely no idea how gun transfer laws really work and can't believe it when someone tries to explain it to them. Which explains a lot about why so many people are always ready to vote for more gun control laws. They don't know how restrictive the laws already are and the burdens they impose already. :()
 
Sam1911 said:
(As an aside: Be prepared to have this information received with a blank stare and then, "Oh, that can't be right..." and then they go do whatever they want to do. ....
Click to expand...

I bet there are many who have ignorantly done interstate transfers without even knowing the repercussions. I have explained to at least 10 persons how to do it correctly.

A firearm coming out of a state who tracks guns / owners closely like NY can be especially dangerous. Someone then tells government why they no longer own this gun. "I sold it to my brother in PA" will be a costly little statement. Or we all have friends and/or relatives who just can't keep from saying wrong things to the wrong people. And if it's ever "traced" due to a crime committed with it.

Bottom line... it's just not worth it; transfer correctly; stay out of prison.

chuck
 
The father lives in New York. If the firearms are legal here, then he must have a permit for all those that qualify. If it is legal for him to drive them to PA, then he could drive them to a dealer for FFL transfer to the daughter. If not, then they must be shipped across. He will need paperwork necessary for the pistols to be removed from his permit.
 
I'd venture to guess that at least 50% of gun owners have committed a transfer crime since 1968.
They may be enlightened now but trades between friends and family, purchases at gunshows or through the classifieds over the last 40+ years have probably involved more than 50%.
 
orpington said:
....With regards to the post-1898 firearms: Is there any problem transporting from New York to Pennsylvania? And, finally, the post-1898 revolvers, if any: Do they have to go through an FFL? It is simply a transfer from elderly father to daughter.
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I'm going to be very direct here and provide chapter and verse.

Yes, there is a very serious problem which could land both father and daughter in federal prison and cost them their gun rights for the rest of their lives.

It looks like a good time to once again lay out federal law on interstate firearms transfer. This law has been in effect for over 45 years. It was enacted by the Gun Control Act of 1968.

  • Under federal law, any transfer of a gun (with a few, narrow exceptions, e. g., by bequest under a will) from a resident of one State to a resident of another must be through an FFL. And a handgun must be transferred through an FFL in the transferee's State of residence. The transfer must comply with all the requirements of the State in which the transfer is being done as well as all federal formalities (e. g., completion of a 4473, etc.). There are no exceptions under the applicable federal laws for gifts, whether between relatives or otherwise, nor is there any exception for transactions between relatives.

  • In the case of handguns, it must be an FFL in the transferee's State of residence. You may obtain a handgun in a State other than your State of residence, BUT it must be shipped by the transferor to an FFL in your State of residence to transfer the handgun to you.

  • In the case of long guns, it may be any FFL as long as (1) the long gun is legal in the transferee's State of residence; and (2) the transfer complies with the laws of the State in which it takes place; and (3) the transfer complies with the law of the transferee's State of residence.C] In connection with the transfer of a long gun, some FFLs will not want to handle the transfer to a resident of another State, because they may be uncertain about the laws of that State. And if the transferee resides in some States (e. g., California), the laws of the State may be such that an out-of-state FFL will not be able to conduct a transfer that complies.

  • There are no exceptions under the applicable federal laws for gifts, whether between relatives or otherwise, nor is there any exception for transactions between relatives.

  • The relevant federal laws may be found at: 18 USC 922(a)(3); 18 USC 922(a)(5); and 18 USC 922(b)(3).

  • Here's what the statutes say:
    18 U.S.C. 922. Unlawful acts

    (a) It shall be unlawful—
    ...

    (3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph

    (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State,

    (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and

    (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;​

    ...

    (5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to

    (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and

    (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;​

    ....

    (b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver --
    ...

    (3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee's place of business is located, except that this paragraph

    (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and

    (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;​

    ...
    Click to expand...
 
As stated, the daughter getting a C&R type 3 FFL is the easiest way to make this situation as described work. It is a VERY easy thing to do and costs very little. She records the transfers of +50 yr old weapons in her log and the deal is done. If she doesn't want to keep/re-new the license, she can simply let it expire. As of this date, there is no requirement to mail off the records when you cease to have a type 3 FFL. For what it's worth, I have had family firearms given to me in exactly this manner from out-of-state.
 
orpington said:
....I think someone can purchase a Winchester 1894 produced circa 1915 from a collector at my local Pennsylvania show without an FFL. They are free to go home, whether or not home is 10 minutes away, or home is New York or Maryland, etc...
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Actually no, if his home were in another State he would not be free to do that (unless he had a 003 FFL). See my post 12, above.

A lot of folks keep getting this wrong. Perhaps they don't want to believe it's true. But it's been the law since 1968.
 
I think I need to come back to this:
orpington said:
....Pre-1899, whether longarm or revolver, is "antique" (and, therefore, by definition, not even a firearm) and would not be a problem, correct?...
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It's not quite that simple.

An antique firearm is defined under federal law (state law might have different definitions) as (18 USC 921(a)(16), emphasis added):
(16) The term “antique firearm” means—

(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or

(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—

(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or

(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or​

(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.​
Click to expand...

So a specific gun which was actually manufactured (i. e., that very gun) before 1899 is an antique. But a reproduction of such a gun is not an antique if it can fire conventional, available fixed ammuniition. Nor is a muzzle loader an antique if it can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition.
 
Based on what folks have written above, I think my coworker will opt for having them willed to her. She doesn't shoot and they are simply heirlooms. Is there specific wording that needs to be used in the will?
 
orpington said:
Based on what folks have written above, I think my coworker will opt for having them willed to her. She doesn't shoot and they are simply heirlooms. Is there specific wording that needs to be used in the will?
Click to expand...

With NY state permits listing what firearms one owns, it will be important to keep the arms secured after the owners passing. When the sole the owner dies, the police may see the the arms as UN-owned and may subsequently attempt to seize them. Who may (in the eyes of NY state) hold them prior to the will being acted on may be a topic to be discussed during estate planning with a lawyer.

This article is a little over a year old, but shows that NY state is NOT friendly to gun owners. It may be over-hyped internet blog'ging, but why take the chance?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/11/14/buffalo-police-search-for-firearms-at-home-after-funerals.html
 
Frank or Sam correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't the simplest thing here be for the father to simply bring the firearms to an FFL in PA and transfer them to his daughter? Seems easier than messing with a will.
 
bearcreek said:
Frank or Sam correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't the simplest thing here be for the father to simply bring the firearms to an FFL in PA and transfer them to his daughter?...
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Probably, but the daughter should work everything out with the transfer FFL. Some FFLs have specific business policies regarding how they want to receive guns for transfer.

orpington said:
...I think my coworker will opt for having them willed to her. She doesn't shoot and they are simply heirlooms. Is there specific wording that needs to be used in the will?
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As far the wording for the will goes, that's really a job for the father's lawyer.
 
Frank Ettin said:
bearcreek said:
Frank or Sam correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't the simplest thing here be for the father to simply bring the firearms to an FFL in PA and transfer them to his daughter?...
Click to expand...

Probably, but the daughter should work everything out with the transfer FFL. Some FFLs have specific business policies regarding how they want to receive guns for transfer.
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Shipping them to a Pennsylvania FFL for transfer to the daughter seems to me like the ironclad solution. I don't know what Pennsylvania's handgun laws are, but if she can legally possess all of these firearms in PA, then this would be the simplest way to get it done in full compliance with the law.
 
How far apart are they? Father moves to Pa. Takes his guns there. someday decides he likes New York better (?????) Once the guns are in her house in PA, they happen to stay there- end of story? She needs to verify this idea with a lawyer, but saves a lot of paper work neither state or feds care about at that point? The modern handguns should ride in a locked box if it was me...
 
courier de bois said:
...Father moves to Pa. Takes his guns there. someday decides he likes New York better (?????) Once the guns are in her house in PA, they happen to stay there- end of story?...
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That is preposterous. Do you have any clue what the law is regarding residence? Do you have any clue how "State of residence" is defined for the purposes of the Gun Control Act of 1968?

For the purpose of the Gun Control Act of 1968, "State of residence" is defined as (27 CFR 478.11, emphasis added):
State of residence. The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. If an individual is on active duty as a member of the Armed Forces, the individual's State of residence is the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, as stated in 18 U.S.C. 921(b)....
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Lawyers prove intent all the time using circumstantial evidence from which one's intentions are inferable. For example, if one is moving to a State with an intention to make that State his home, one would expect him to (1) buy a house or enter into a lease on an apartment; (2) get a driver's license and register his car in that State; (3) change his address to that State for all purposes: (4) open a bank account at a local bank in that State; (5) look for a job in that State (unless retired); (6) move all, or substantially all, his belongings; and (7) generally do all things one would normally do when settling into a new home.

If one claims to be a new resident of a State and hasn't done such things, a federal prosecutor, a federal grand jury, and the jury at his trial for violating the GCA68 rules on interstate transfer of firearms, would be permitted and likely to infer that his claim is a sham.

By proposing such a course, you are encouraging both the father and the daughter to commit a serious federal crime.
 
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steelerdude99 said:
With NY state permits listing what firearms one owns, it will be important to keep the arms secured after the owners passing. When the sole the owner dies, the police may see the the arms as UN-owned and may subsequently attempt to seize them. Who may (in the eyes of NY state) hold them prior to the will being acted on may be a topic to be discussed during estate planning with a lawyer.

This article is a little over a year old, but shows that NY state is NOT friendly to gun owners. It may be over-hyped internet blog'ging, but why take the chance?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/11/14/buffalo-police-search-for-firearms-at-home-after-funerals.html
Click to expand...
A New York State Pistol Permit will list all pistols on the Permit. Rifles and shotguns are not included on the permit.

The problem of having NY State Police confiscate the pistols after death can be fixed by adding the pistols onto the permit of someone else. For instance, the husband has a "S&W .38 caliber Serial # 123456789" on his permit.

If his wife has her own permit, she too can add her husband's pistol "S&W .38 caliber Serial # 123456789" on her own permit as well. So if the husband dies, the wife also has legal possession of the gun in the eyes of the law in NY State. It is called "co-owning a pistol. "




Discussed here...

http://nyfirearms.com/forums/pistol-permits/29085-co-owning-pistol.html

"In Orange Cty, its just an amendment form, no letter required. I think its a good idea so long as you trust each other. I have my pistols on my wife's permit should something happen to me she can hold on to them until my son is old enough for a permit. "

Also Please check that forum of how to legally get pistols OFF the permit after you sell them. I believe an FFL in New York State can easily answer those questions.

.
 
Midwest said:
Also Please check that forum of how to legally get pistols OFF the permit after you sell them. I believe an FFL in New York State can easily answer those questions.
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In my county (Ulster), you used to be able to do a simple bill of sale. I sell you my pistol and write you up a bill of sale. You take the bill of sale, go into the sheriff's office and hand it to clerk. The clerk adds the pistol to your permit and gives you a coupon. You bring me the coupon, and then I can legally give you the pistol. I take the coupon back to the sheriff's office, and they take the pistol off my permit. No FFL involved because we both have valid pistol permits. BTW, the county charges $5 for each of these transactions -- one fee to put it on the buyer's permit and one fee to take it off the seller's permit.

Since the passage of the SAFE Act in 2013, the bill of sale has to come from an FFL, who has to do a background check on the buyer. Now there's an FFL fee in addition to the county's administrative fee. More paperwork, more fees, and nobody is the slightest bit "safer."
 
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We are a more mobile society these days. What if the New York resident moves to another state like TN to live himself and keep his firearms? We don't have such owner's permits. What happens then? Does NY or TN care?
 
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