Recommended .380 bullet for defence?

When I had a .380 I loaded Speer 88 gr HPs max load. My thinking was if it was too slow to expand I had a FMJ, it it did expand, great, a win win.
Foremost is reliability, whatever you choose it must cycle every time. Then accuracy, then expansion.

Watch the "shootingthebull" video's that kokapelli previously posted the link to.

I have carried Federal Hydrashoks for many years in my PPK/s and still find good cause to carry them. They've been proven over time as a manstopper and do well in expansion and penetration in the gelatin and denim tests even with the micro .380's like the Kel Tec P3AT, Ruger LCP, and others with 3" or shorter barrels. Ammo that is loaded with the Horandy XTP's (not the flex point FTX) works well in these tests also providing both reliable expansion and 12" or greater penetration. Of the exhaustive tests done by Shootingthebull the old Federal Hydrashok and ammo using the XTP bullet where the "winners" as the best available for micro pistols.

Here's a gelatin test of 16 different defense loads, with expansion measurements. Critical Defense looks pretty good.

Llama Bob writes:

All .308 ammo sucks when compared to 9mm,

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I don't know about "sucks", but they're certainly a beast when fired from a gun barely longer than the cartridge..!

My Bersa Thunder is loaded with Winchester 95-grain SXZ JHP, a "run-of-the-mill" load marketed for Bass Pro Shops. The gun has a 3.3-inch barrel. My loose rule is HPs are probably okay from a barrel greater than 3 or so inches, and FMJ or FNEB (flat-nosed, enclosed base, kind of a semi-jacketed, slat-tipped solid) are better for the smaller guns. That latter load, by Remington-UMC, is what's in my old Grendel P10 (an ancestor to the Kel-Tec line), but that gun never gets carried.

From all of the above, choose which you prefer and can source. Some localities just don't have ammo readily available.

Go shoot it. If it functions reliably to your standards, ok. Some shooters and makers suggest getting at least 200 to 500 rounds thru the action to break it in and reveal any continuing problem with a particular cartridge.

From there, practice with that specific firearm is the next level of reliability, because shot placement is key. Great penetration and expansion is a goal, but wasted if the bullet is placed where the aggressor is still capable of acting out. Shot placement is key. Practice is the only way to get reliable shot placement.

Too many put a gun in their pocket which fits all their comfort needs having never shot it extensively, loaded with the boutique Ammo of the Month having never proofed it's a good choice, and never having practiced with it to ensure that they aren't the weak link.

Don't be me or the hundreds of others who post.

Llama Bob said:

I agree with this. All .308 ammo sucks when compared to 9mm, but this particular bullet seems to suck less than the alternatives. I think 3 or 4 manufacturers make loads with it.

Strangely the 95 grain Hornady bullet in the Critical Defense line is not nearly as good.

The Speer gold dot offering is also acceptable IMO.

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True, but try to find a concealable .308 LOL

kokapelli said:

Corbin also failed the Shooting a The Bull gelatin tests.

http://shootingthebull.net/blog/fina...cp-ammo-quest/

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How can you say Corbon "failed" when all that seemed to happen with Corbon that was negative was that it didn't penetrate as well in denim? The bare gelatin scores look near ideal.

With .380 there just is not a lot of energy. Ball ammo will get you reliable penetration. The XTP bullets will get you expansion up to .42 and penetration to 12 inches. That is not much expansion from something starting out at .355. If you get more expansion than you get a lot less penetration. .45 will normally get something like the 8 inches you get with Critical Defense. That is seriously not good penetration and I think with that minimal amount of expansion, from .355 to .45, its a poor round to carry. Penetration is still king. I think ball is the way to go with .380. It is not like 9mm where when we talk expansion we are talking doubling the caliber. We are talking moderate to minimal caliber increases. Its just not worth the loss of penetration.

I had not seen that Gold Dot video before. For .380 that was pretty impressive.

stonecutter2 said:

How can you say Corbon "failed" when all that seemed to happen with Corbon that was negative was that it didn't penetrate as well in denim? The bare gelatin scores look near ideal.

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Well, as long as you only have to defend yourself against naked people you should be good

I use Remington Golden Saber 380 in my LCP.

I have read great things about Ruger's new ARX ammo.

I am always surprised, by the number of people who under estimate the effect of a .380, on the human body. It can be very lethal. As always, shot placement is the key!

JohnnyFlake said:

I am always surprised, by the number of people who under estimate the effect of a .380, on the human body. It can be very lethal. As always, shot placement is the key!

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Well, we aren't concerned with being lethal. We are concerned with the round's ability to stop the threat/attacker as quickly as possible.

You may find this helpful, I do.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#380ACP

I carry a Mix of Hornady Critical Defense and XTP's.

The Critical Defense gives a good chance to expand. The XTP's will penetrate more. If they expand... Great if not its the same as shooting Ball ammo.

Speer Gold Dot! I wont say it is the best but it has steet testing that very few other ammos can claim. It is has been used by alot by LEO both domestic and internationaly. It has been tested on the street with great results for alot of years. They also make a version desighned for short barrels with faster burning powder to get maximum performance from compact guns.

You may find alot of ammo with great ballistic gel test and big claims but that list will get very short when you look for data on actual field results on bad guys. Im sure there are some great new SD ammos but when it comes to my gun i dont want to be the "gunie pig". Ill go for the street tested and proven ammo every time. Ill let some one else test the new stuff.

Wasn't aware GD .380 had been so thoroughly street tested.
Denis

I carry FMJ in my P3AT,, at the ranges that this weapon design for they work. (10 feet?)

If a human heart or Aorta is pierce with a .355 projectile the rapid loss of blood pressure quickly renders the person unable to continue hostilities.

The same effect can be expected if the .355 projectile transiting parts of the brain, brain stem.

Humans range in weight from 90 lbs to 400lbs, which effects the distance to the heart, it has little effect on a projectiles access to grey matter.

Proper shot placement is more important than what type of bullet is being used.

Corbon JHP or the copper DPX

kokapelli said:

Corbin also failed the Shooting a The Bull gelatin tests.

http://shootingthebull.net/blog/fina...cp-ammo-quest/

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Kokapelli--The Corbon round is a bit of a hotter round than some of the others tested, but to say Corbon failed is, in my opinion, an exaggeration. The bullet "failed" by over penetrating the standard of 12 inches penetration established for the ballistic gel/denim test, but the bullets expanded as designed and the author acknowledges that the gel test does not duplicate or replicate flesh penetration. Not trying to be argumentative, just my two cents.

Troy800 said:

Speer Gold Dot! I wont say it is the best but it has steet testing that very few other ammos can claim. It is has been used by alot by LEO both domestic and internationaly. It has been tested on the street with great results for alot of years. They also make a version desighned for short barrels with faster burning powder to get maximum performance from compact guns.

You may find alot of ammo with great ballistic gel test and big claims but that list will get very short when you look for data on actual field results on bad guys. Im sure there are some great new SD ammos but when it comes to my gun i dont want to be the "gunie pig". Ill go for the street tested and proven ammo every time. Ill let some one else test the new stuff.

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What law enforcement agencies use .380?

Actually, quite a few do when the off duty or backup gun is left to the officer.

There is an issue with demanding that .380 penetrate to at least 12". Considering that the intent of use is within 21 feet, it's not losing that much velocity, especially when at near arm's length range (not a good time to hold the gun out in front.) The major targets to stop are at close proximity and they are both less than 6" within the body. The problem is they both have bone mass in front of them protecting them - the sternum, and the skull. Ball will likely penetrate but won't expand to shock the organ.

We might call them belly guns but in reality that is one of the less optimal targets - in a violent confrontation you want to stop, and stop quickly. A heart or head shot that can both penetrate bone and also expand and transect the organ does that. It won't necessarily need twelve inches of penetration, what it needs is to break bone and then expand.

Which one of the bullets does that? Maybe not the most highly rated per FBI standards, which are decidedly skewed to work against vehicles and other cover. I'm less concerned about a bullet track thru 18" of gelatin as which does better with a plate barrier in front to simulate bone. Some .380 is known to ricochet off the human skull when we actually need to have it break thru, and round nose is anecdotally the worst at doing that.

If I have to stop an aggressor, I'm much more likely to have to shoot a human or large animal, not Gumby.

Tirod said:

Actually, quite a few do when the off duty or backup gun is left to the officer.

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Off duty and backup guns aren't used all that much compared to duty guns/primaries.

It's not like there are a bunch of cops out there carrying and using .380, proving the rounds. If there are a bunch of cops using .380 Gold Dots with good result, would you mind showing that?

Tirod said:

Which one of the bullets does that? Maybe not the most highly rated per FBI standards, which are decidedly skewed to work against vehicles and other cover.

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What?

The FBI standards we go by are for penetration in bare gel and through four layers of denim into gel. How do you get vehicles and other cover from that?

Tirod said:

I'm less concerned about a bullet track thru 18" of gelatin as which does better with a plate barrier in front to simulate bone.

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The FBI guideline is 12"-18" of penetration. 18" of penetration is not the goal, it is the maximum.

The FBI guideline is 12"-18" of penetration. 18" of penetration is not the goal, it is the maximum.

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You have a link that says 18" is a maximum, HWFE says 12" minimum and 18 would be preferred?

The best .380 round is a 9mm.

Just kidding! (kinda )

Honestly, stick with a premium brand and you're fine...Hornady XTP, Federal Hydra Shok, Speer Gold Dot...

The key with the micro pistols is to test the ammo you will carry to make sure it runs in your particular gun.

Good Luck!

mavracer said:

You have a link that says 18" is a maximum, HWFE says 12" minimum and 18 would be preferred?

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Example

http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/4/16/throwback-thursday-the-fbi-ammo-tests/

"The maximum depth of penetration used in the calculation was 18", because a bullet that penetrated any further than that would be presumed to have exited the target."

"But perhaps the most illuminating data is found under the category of “Adjusted Volume.” This is the actual volume of the wound channel produced expressed in cubic inches. The calculation eliminates penetration beyond 18" (penetration over 18" was routine in the tests where wallboard and plywood bar-rier materials were used), but provides a useful means of estimating permanent tissue damage."


Over 18" is considered bad and/or a waste. Hence the maximum.


http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#standards

"The goal of our project is to test as many loads as possible in order to determine how they compare to the FBI standard recommended penetration depth of 12-18″. "

"Why 12 inches?

The 18 inch maximum penetration depth standard makes sense to most people — too much penetration and the bullet can go clean through the target (possibly changing direction slightly before exiting) and onward to harm an unintended target. "