Squib loads in 38 Special

CraigS · May 29, 2016

Mauser69 said:
I have loaded/shot over a thousand 2.5g 700X loads in .38 Spl - most of them with 148g HBWC bullets where the MAXIMUM load is 2.5g 700X. Zero squibs. Those loads chrono at 660 fps with an average deviation of 21.

I have loaded 2.2g 700X behind the same bullets with mixed results. 2.2g gives 552 fps +/- 14 and shoot very well. The problem, however, is that when I load these with my Lee Auto Disk powder measure, I get large variations in the tiny charges of 700X using a disk cavity of .30cc, including a few squibs. So with my Lee Auto disk, a disk cavity of .34cc, throwing 2.5g 700X is very consistent, but a disk cavity of .30cc throwing 2.2g 700X is unacceptable.

I have never noticed any position sensitivity with 700X, but I have never specifically tested for it either.

Last night I loaded some test rounds with 2.8g 700X (all carefully weighed) and Zero 125g JHP bullets (real jacketed, not plated). I will shoot them later this morning and report those results.

I would certainly be interested in your results with the 125 JHPs.

Your 148 HBWC load with 2.5 gr of 700X is at the maximum, like you said. It's at the other end of the pressure spectrum from my 2.8 grain load with the 125 Berry's plated FP.

Your OAL length is much shorter with a HBWC load, giving less empty space in the case. Seems as though this difference could reduce any effect of position sensitivity.

CraigS · May 29, 2016

Walkalong said:
I settled on WST or Competition for plated bullets and light loads in .38 Spl or .357 Mag cases. They did the best as far as powder position, and were accurate as well. Lead is different.

I still use more than 2.8 Grs though. Solo 1000 and a 125 Gr plated did very well, better than 700X, but again, at 4.2 Grs (760 FPS from a 6" 14-5), way more than 2.8.

I tried Trail Boss so the case would be full, but it was very erratic with plated.

One way to avoid the problem is simply point the muzzle up before each shot. Lead is also much easier to get a light load with that always exits the barrel.

Thanks for that information. I do plan on trying different powders, so I appreciate the first-hand recommendation.

Interesting results with the Trail Boss and plated bullets. If I can ever find some, I'll load lead bullets with it.

CraigS · May 29, 2016

murf said:
sounds like you are having ignition problems with your powder. try bullseye, or try a different primer.

luck,

murf

Thanks...I do have some Bullseye and do plan to load some with it. I wanted to know what was going on with this particular load, however. Mainly for the sake of learning.

BSA1 · May 29, 2016

Thanks for the reply and the load data. I was attempting to find the lightest recoiling load in 38 Special, mainly for my wife, but I would shoot it also. Less powder used would also make it a little more economical to load. The lowest pressure load data that I could find was in the Lyman 49th, which states a starting load of 2.8 grains of 700X will yield a velocity of 473 fps from a 4" barrel (8100 CUP).

I still don't know what the problem is. Some posters agree with Lyman that 2.8 grains is sufficient. Other members here advise using more powder, and cite Hodgdon load data to support their position. At this point, I plan to increase the charge weight and chalk up the squibs to powder sensitivity. I remain open to any and all suggestions or theories as to the cause of the squibs.

Here are my thoughts:

1. Use the right powder for the job. I burn a lot of 700X...

in large volume cases such as 45 Colt.

For mid-bore size calibers my go to powder is W-231 (and HP-38). AA-2 and AA-5 would be worth trying. (I burn a lot of AA-3 in my 32-20 and 32 Magnum). Ball powders give much more consistent throws which is very important with very light and near max loads.

2. You are loading on a single stage press. Are you loading in batches of 50 at a time? If not get a loading block with 50 holes in it. Charge 50 cases with powder with them standing up in the loading block. With a bright flashlight shine the light in all of the cases ensuring that the powder level is the same in all 50 cases. This eliminates the possibility of a case not having any powder and one being double charge. I have loaded 10's of thousands of cartridges this way on my RCBS Rock Chucker with zero accidental charging of the case.

3. The lightest loads are probably not going to be the most accurate one. It certainly is a poor(est) choice when it comes to stopping power. I once bounced a 148 gr. full wadcutter off of the forehead of opossum from 2' away. All it did was to make him very angry at me.

4. If your wife is serious about having a handgun for self-defense she needs to either learn to shoot mid-range 38's (non +P) or go to a smaller caliber. I don't mean to sound harsh but you are not doing your wife any favors by using pop-gun loads. My wife's s.d. handgun is a 4" Colt P.P.S. loaded with Hornady Critical Defense. The factory wood grips hurt her soft hands when shooting so she told me she wanted rubber grips. I put Hogue rubber grips on it and after trying them pronounced her gun as perfect. She has a lot of confidence in being able to comfortably and accurately shoot her gun and I feel comfortable with her having a gun that shoots a reasonably powerful cartridge.

Since you are a reloader the 32 Magnum is a good choice. Reload for practice to save money and buy commercial cartridges such as Hornady Critical Defense for serious use.

The 22 magnum deserves a close look. Hornady, Speer and Winchester all make cartridges designed especially for use in small barrel handguns. Speer Gold Dots are literally a tack driver from my Taurus 22 mag. Maybe one round won't do the job but eight of those nasty things placed where it matters will.

CraigS · May 29, 2016

Reefinmike said:
Likely the weight he had in the pan was in between 2.8 and 2.9 so he just called it 2.85 like I often do when loading hand weighed charges and writing down load data. Many times I will let 1/20th of a grain over target weight slide. I feel that Op has enough know how to properly operate a scale and also believe that it is possible to have a load that has some squibs with identical powder charges. I know we are all trying to be helpful here, but OP is getting his experience history poked and prodded at a bit too much IMO. I don't see anything in his postings that would indicate he hasn't picked up a manual. Maybe, just maybe Lyman has listed a load that is too light for OP's gun. There are many factors that could make a load reliable in one revolver and a squib factory in another gun. Cylinder gap, bore diameter, bore wear, etc etc. Simple fact is he needs more powder to reliably get the bullet out the bore. Anyone who is loading this 2.8gr 700x load, have you sent any over a chrony? Im curious if there is a significant velocity spread???

I appreciate your support. I mentioned that I charged the cases with between 2.80 and 2.85 grains of 700X not only to indicate that I did indeed know how to use a scale, but even more importantly, I wanted to assure the other members that I was not undercharging the cases. The published load is at the minimum level, so going below the minimum could have explained my squibs. I was attempting to eliminate that reason as a possible cause as we are trying to figure this out.

I'm looking forward to Mauser69's results with essentially the same load (per Berry's, the plated bullet can be substituted for any load that calls for a jacketed bullet at a velocity less than 1250fps).

Mauser69 · May 29, 2016

Test Results are IN

Here are my test results. I still think the OP may have something else going wrong besides just a light charge, but based on all the variables, maybe not.

Test Method:
I loaded 18 .38 Spl cases (mixed brass, all with multiple past reloads). I hand-weighed each charge to 2.8g 700X using my RCBS beam scale. I seated a Zero 125g JHP-c bullet in each to the cannelure. I left 5 of them completely uncrimped as comparison, but very lightly roll-crimped all of the others. I was able to move the UNCRIMPED bullets deeper into the cases by using strong force with my bare hand pushing against the side of my bench, so they had decent neck tension, but not great.

All rounds were fired in my Ruger Blackhawk with 6 1/2" barrel. I fired one full cylinder without regard to powder position, one cylinder by cocking the gun, pointing it straight up, then carefully lowering it to level (best powder-position scenario), and the last cylinder by cocking the gun, pointing it straight down, then carefully raising it to level (worst powder position scenario).

In each cylinder load I had at least one of the uncrimped rounds in last position and checked for bullet pull after the first 5 were fired - none showed any sign of movement whatsoever.

I did NOT bother to set up my chronograph for this test, since I don't ever plan on loading these again, so all results reported are based on subjective observation.

RESULTS:
I DID find some position sensitivity with 700X using such light charges. All rounds in the first two cylinders sounded and felt the same and were reasonably accurate offhand at 15 yards. However, the last cylinder (worst case scenario) DID HAVE ONE SQUIB. The second round had a noticeable lighter report, and the bullet lodged 4" into the barrel. The bullet was fairly easy to drive out, indicating that these jacketed bullets are not an overly tight fit in this gun.

Most of the fired bullets in this test were able to easily penetrate about 1" into a bare Ponderosa Pine log from 15 yards, but of the five rounds in the last cylinder, three bullets bounced off after leaving an indentation about as deep as the bullet, one penetrated about 1/4" deeper, and one about 1/2" deeper. These results tend to indicate significant variation in bullet energy when fired with the powder full forward.

Analysis:
The variables between my test and the OP are significant. the OP has used two short barrel guns, and I used one with a significantly longer barrel, which could have caused more stuck bullets. In addition, I was using fully jacketed bullets which theoretically should have had greater drag in the barrel; however, the ease with which I removed the stuck bullet seems to contradict that.

Furthermore, I have no way of knowing how deep the OP's bullets were seated in the case compared to mine, nor do I have any idea how tight a fit his plated bullets were in his barrel.

Considering those variables plus the fact that I did find powder position sensitivity AND the fact that I did get one stuck bullet out of 18, I believe it is reasonable to conclude that perhaps he has just been unlucky in the way those variable lined up for him. If so, an increase in charge will be a complete solution. The good news is that 700X is a fast powder that has a wide range of safe loads with low pressure, so the risk is minimal.

CraigS · May 29, 2016

Mauser69 said:
Here are my test results. I still think the OP may have something else going wrong besides just a light charge, but based on all the variables, maybe not.

Test Method:
I loaded 18 .38 Spl cases (mixed brass, all with multiple past reloads). I hand-weighed each charge to 2.8g 700X using my RCBS beam scale. I seated a Zero 125g JHP-c bullet in each to the cannelure. I left 5 of them completely uncrimped as comparison, but very lightly roll-crimped all of the others. I was able to move the UNCRIMPED bullets deeper into the cases by using strong force with my bare hand pushing against the side of my bench, so they had decent neck tension, but not great.

All rounds were fired in my Ruger Blackhawk with 6 1/2" barrel. I fired one full cylinder without regard to powder position, one cylinder by cocking the gun, pointing it straight up, then carefully lowering it to level (best powder-position scenario), and the last cylinder by cocking the gun, pointing it straight down, then carefully raising it to level (worst powder position scenario).

In each cylinder load I had at least one of the uncrimped rounds in last position and checked for bullet pull after the first 5 were fired - none showed any sign of movement whatsoever.

I did NOT bother to set up my chronograph for this test, since I don't ever plan on loading these again, so all results reported are based on subjective observation.

RESULTS:
I DID find some position sensitivity with 700X using such light charges. All rounds in the first two cylinders sounded and felt the same and were reasonably accurate offhand at 15 yards. However, the last cylinder (worst case scenario) DID HAVE ONE SQUIB. The second round had a noticeable lighter report, and the bullet lodged 4" into the barrel. The bullet was fairly easy to drive out, indicating that these jacketed bullets are not an overly tight fit in this gun.

Most of the fired bullets in this test were able to easily penetrate about 1" into a bare Ponderosa Pine log from 15 yards, but of the five rounds in the last cylinder, three bullets bounced off after leaving an indentation about as deep as the bullet, one penetrated about 1/4" deeper, and one about 1/2" deeper. These results tend to indicate significant variation in bullet energy when fired with the powder full forward.

Analysis:
The variables between my test and the OP are significant. the OP has used two short barrel guns, and I used one with a significantly longer barrel, which could have caused more stuck bullets. In addition, I was using fully jacketed bullets which theoretically should have had greater drag in the barrel; however, the ease with which I removed the stuck bullet seems to contradict that.

Furthermore, I have no way of knowing how deep the OP's bullets were seated in the case compared to mine, nor do I have any idea how tight a fit his plated bullets were in his barrel.

Considering those variables plus the fact that I did find powder position sensitivity AND the fact that I did get one stuck bullet out of 18, I believe it is reasonable to conclude that perhaps he has just been unlucky in the way those variable lined up for him. If so, an increase in charge will be a complete solution. The good news is that 700X is a fast powder that has a wide range of safe loads with low pressure, so the risk is minimal.

Thank you for taking the time to conduct that test and report your findings. It confirms what others have said about 700X at least being somewhat sensitive to position.

At this point, I'm ready to conclude that powder position was one of the main factors (among other variables, as you said) in my squib problems. I'll simply increase the charge and carry on.

Thanks again to all the members who responded. Your help and suggestions are very much appreciated.

vaalpens · May 29, 2016

You can use some of the 148gr WC's for a soft load. I load them using Bullseye, but I also loaded a few in 700x. The 700x load was a softer shooter and no squib. I used a light crimp, just removing the bell. This is the load data I used for 700x and MBC 148gr DEWC coated bullets:

357mag Ruger SP101, 3" barrel

38spl
COL: 1.210"
MBC, 148gr, B12HTDEWC, 700X, 2.4gr, WSP
Average: 580
ES: 24
SD: 10.7
Force: 111
PF: 85
Velocities: 570, 589, 594, 576, 572

38spl
COL: 1.210"
MBC, 148gr, B12HTDEWC, 700X, 2.3gr, WSP
Average: 545
ES: 21
SD: 9.1
Force: 98
PF: 80
Velocities: 534, 555, 546, 538, 553

38spl
COL: 1.210"
MBC, 148gr, B12HTDEWC, 700X, 2.2gr, WSP
Average: 524
ES: 19
SD: 7.5
Force: 90
PF: 77
Velocities: 512, 528, 531, 528, 524
Best grouping at 10yards of 1.56"

38spl
COL: 1.210"
MBC, 148gr, B12HTDEWC, 700X, 2.1gr, WSP
Average: 500
ES: 27
SD: 12.6
Force: 82
PF: 74
Velocities: 488, 486, 507, 513, 509

CraigS · May 29, 2016

vaalpens said:
You can use some of the 148gr WC's for a soft load. I load them using Bullseye, but I also loaded a few in 700x. The 700x load was a softer shooter and no squib. I used a light crimp, just removing the bell. This is the load data I used for 700x and MBC 148gr DEWC coated bullets:

357mag Ruger SP101, 3" barrel

38spl
COL: 1.210"
MBC, 148gr, B12HTDEWC, 700X, 2.4gr, WSP
Average: 580
ES: 24
SD: 10.7
Force: 111
PF: 85
Velocities: 570, 589, 594, 576, 572

38spl
COL: 1.210"
MBC, 148gr, B12HTDEWC, 700X, 2.3gr, WSP
Average: 545
ES: 21
SD: 9.1
Force: 98
PF: 80
Velocities: 534, 555, 546, 538, 553

38spl
COL: 1.210"
MBC, 148gr, B12HTDEWC, 700X, 2.2gr, WSP
Average: 524
ES: 19
SD: 7.5
Force: 90
PF: 77
Velocities: 512, 528, 531, 528, 524
Best grouping at 10yards of 1.56"

38spl
COL: 1.210"
MBC, 148gr, B12HTDEWC, 700X, 2.1gr, WSP
Average: 500
ES: 27
SD: 12.6
Force: 82
PF: 74
Velocities: 488, 486, 507, 513, 509

Thanks for the load data. Those velocities seem pretty mild...just what I was looking for.

Lost Sheep · May 29, 2016

Post 35

rg1 said:
Adding to the advice already given, make sure you have good bullet tension in the case. A bullet not tight in the case can and does cause squibs and .38 Special is notorious for this. Combo .38/357 sizing dies sometimes does not size thinner .38 brass enough to grip bullets tight. Try pushing the bullet deeper into the case with your thumb or push the loaded bullet against your bench. If it moves deeper into the case you have to do whatever it takes to tighten bullet grip.

Is .357 Magnum brass thicker than .38 Special?

Lost Sheep

Mauser69 · May 29, 2016

Lost Sheep said:
Post 35
Is .357 Magnum brass thicker than .38 Special?

Lost Sheep

NO.

thomas15 · May 29, 2016

Mauser69

It seems like your test point to light loads and 700x are not a good mix. What do you think about trimming 38 cases, making them shorter? I've been mulling this around for some time because on a J Frame I think it would make loading from a speed loader easier.

Also, I've never used 700x and from what I've heard its not easy to meter but my question is how dense is it? Clays, for example is fluffy and takes up a lot of room, Titegroup, which is supposed to not be position sensitive, is really dense. I shoot quite a bit of 38 using 3.2g Titegroup and have never had a squib.

Squib loads in 38 Special

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