Need Help Diagnosing Why I Had a Squib

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gerrym526

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Guys,

Have been reloading for about 9 yrs now and just had my 2nd squib. Was shooting 38 Special +P out of my S&W 686, and the squib entered the cone, but didn't clear the brass, so the cylinder was completely locked up. Required a gunsmith's skill, and he returned the squib and the unfired rounds for comparison. Pic is enclosed, with the squib on the left, and the unfired round on the right-note the difference in length. Squib round had a firing pin dent in the primer.

Here's the reloading data-
  • Primer CCI 500 (small pistol)
  • Everglades Ammo 158gr RN
  • Power Pistol 5.7gr (using a Lee Pro Auto Disk powder drop on a turret press-used single stage, not progressive)
  • COL 1.50
  • Medium crimp (Lee Factory Crimp Die)
Here's how I started analyzing-

The gunsmith seemed to think it was a light powder load, so I started by determining what the loaded bullet should weigh. Took several empty brass cases (with spent primers in them) and weighed them-range of weights was 69.3-69.8gr. Then added the projectile weight (158 gr), and the powder weight (5.7gr) and found the bullet weight to range between 233.0 and 233.5 gr.

Since I had fired about 20 rounds from the 50 round box of reloads, went back and checked the unfired rounds. All except 4 were at least 232.5 gr-the 4 were approximately 231 gr each (2 gr light).

Now-my main question, since I loaded about 200 rounds like this is-"Are the remaining rounds (after checking that total weight is 233 gr or higher), safe to fire?" Or do I pull the bullets, and rebuild with new powder drops?

According to my Speer reloading guide, 158 gr RN (lead) minimum powder weight using Power Pistol is 5.4 gr-so if I was light 2gr in some of he bullets I loaded, the 5.7 gr disk would still have me above the minimum weight recommended.

Appreciate all your help on this, and I will rebuild the rounds already loaded if any of you think I'm running a risk of another squib and gunsmith repair firing those I already loaded.
Thanks,
Gerry
 

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gerrym526 said:
Guys,



According to my Speer reloading guide, 158 gr RN (lead) minimum powder weight using Power Pistol is 5.4 gr-so if I was light 2gr in some of he bullets I loaded, the 5.7 gr disk would still have me above the minimum weight recommended.
Click to expand...

If you were trying to drop 5.7 and you were 2 gr light, wouldn't that be 3.7 or more than a grain and a half below min?

IMHO, weighing loaded brass tells you nuttin except that is what it weighs. Unless you weigh your cases in advance and sort them so they are all the exact same weight empty, they are never gonna be the same when loaded. How sure are you that your bullets are all the exact same weight? Also, you are using a lead load recipe for a jacketed bullet. Jacketed generally take a higher charge rate. For your squib to be stuck in the forcing cone, I'd think you had seated a bullet in an empty case. Primer alone would push your bullet that far.
 
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It doesn’t look like you have much of a crimp on the case on the right. Me, I would probably pull the loads already made. If you have a real serious crimp on the finished rounds I would probably say try shooting them. Pulling rounds with a serious crimp can turn into work.

Years ago I did an experiment on loaded .38 Special rounds weighing them after I loaded them. I also tested components from the same batch while making the loads. The variations in case weights and bullet weights would have made it hard to pick light charged loads from standard loads. Even with the same brass manufacturer you can see variations of 2 and 3 grains in bulk brass. Plus the bullets were lead bulk bullets of 158 grains. I found deviations in weight of 2 grains less is some.

It’s hard to weigh finished cartridges and figure out which may or may not have light loads. At least that is how I see it.
 
Pat Riot said:
It doesn’t look like you have much of a crimp on the case on the right.
Click to expand...

Yes, the lack of a cannelure means he has no place to roll the crimp into, thus a very light roll crimp or a taper. This lack of crimp would help make so a primer alone could and would, drive a bullet out of the case and get stuck in the front of the forcing cone.
 
"Zero powder. The primer moved the bullet."

That is sorta what I think also. Or a blocked flash hole. Or water in the case. But mostly you need to figure out how the Auto disc might not have put powder into it. One way that can happen is if the slider does not move the powder chamber all the way over the drop hole and it bridges. Check that. Do you actually look at the powder level in every case before you drop a bullet in? I do. I still might miss one but I try to look twice. Once when I do the drop and set a bullet on it. Again when I pick it up to seat the bullets.

So you have the squib. When you opened it up what was inside? If there is no powder in it now then there was not much in it when it was fired.

Yes, I certainly think you are running a risk of another squib to continue to shoot those shells. I would pull the bullets and see what is in each case. then go from there.
 
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AJC1 said:
Zero powder. The primer moved the bullet.
Click to expand...
I had a gun smith unjam my blackhawk (38spl) about a year ago, no sign of powder anywhere, no doubt in his mind nor mine. Duh... At least it wasn't in my semi (different caliber) with one round following another as fast as i pull the trigger. I think I would get the hammer out for the rest of the tray(box)
 
Need Help Diagnosing Why I Had a Squib

My guess would be is because you did not check each and every case for the correct amount of powder before you seated a bullet.

I would recommend a LED light strip installed on the press to be able to more easily visually confirm the correct powder charge is present before seating the bullet.
s-l1000.jpg
 
My guess based on information presented is either case skipped the powder charge operation or very small powder charge got dropped.

So I would look at those two reloading operations and have QC added to prevent no/little powder charge of case in the future.

I have a small dentist type inspection mirror with lighting to check the powder charge before setting bullet to catch no/smaller powder charge as my built-in QC step.
 
If the bullet didn’t even make it far enough out to allow pressure to bleed off at the cylinder gap, I don’t think you had a low powder problem, rather a no powder problem.

With a 0.0 grain powder charge a CCI primer can push a bullet far enough to cause what you describe.

As there was no gap and the bullet was hammered back into the case, you can pull the bullet now and see what residue is in the case. If there isn’t unburned powder in there you didn’t charge that case.

4.5 grains of PP will push a 160gn RN 831 fps, 3.7 gn isn’t going to get stuck in the barrel much less the forcing cone.
 
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When you're done figuring out how much powder was in the squib, figure out how little is required to recreate your squib. Start with a primer only, and work up.

When you're done, you'll know approximately how much powder was actually there, and you'll have a range rod and the skill to solve the next one yourself.
 
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Guys,
Thanks for all the advice-learned a lot.

To those of you who corrected my arithmetic-DuH!-I need to go back to 2nd grade. A 2 grain loss of powder in the charge would put me under the minimum for this load with Power Pistol.

I pulled the bullet, and found no unburned powder, leading me to agree with those of you who said the squib was caused by a "primer only" condition.

Appreciate the input on how weighing the finished round doesn't tell you anything-won't use this in the future as an analytical technique.

And, really owe you guys who commented on my QC needing improvement. Since I started reloading, when I get to the powder drop step, put the filled cases in a loading block and visually check them with a desk light or flashlight before moving on to the bullet seating step. While this isn't a precise technique, it does make an empty case stand out.

I must have had a "senior moment" loading these rounds and omitted the step-otherwise, I'm confident the cartridges missing powder would have been caught.

Looks like I'll go through the pain of pulling the bullets on the 200 rounds, and repeating the powder charging (checking every 5th round like I normally do for correct powder weight) and bullet seating steps. Will also increase the crimp on the rounds.

And will get a steel rod to fit the barrel, and become my own gunsmith when needing to have squibs removed from the barrel-LOL!
Thanks again for all the help.
Gerry
 
Frankly I think checking powder drops every 5th round is way to often and probably the cause of your empty round. Once that Auto disc is set there is no need to keep weighing powder charges. You probably messed up somehow when you checked the powder drop. Over attention to a minor detail and under attention to the important point. 1 charge per shell. Not 0, not 2. Variations in amount of the drop do not matter at this point and there is no use to keep hammering that. I think it is very likely you weighed a charge, put the powder back in the hopper, and put a bullet into the empty case.
 
gerrym526 said:
And will get a steel rod to fit the barrel, and become my own gunsmith when needing to have squibs removed from the barrel-LOL!
Thanks again for all the help.
Gerry
Click to expand...
It better be REALLY soft steel. I would recommend brass instead.

And, if you keep having squibs.... :uhoh:

Keep in mind that some mechanisms that cause squib loads (powder bridging in the drop tube) are followed by a double or more charge.:what: nothing beats visually checking EACH case for both small and large amounts of powder.
 
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Bill M. said:
Frankly I think checking powder drops every 5th round is way to often .
Click to expand...

For many of us, loading handgun ammo, it is, unless you are shooting competition or you have issues with your powder thrower. For a new reloader, it is a good idea to be overly cautions and until you trust your thrower, by all means, check as often as you want. But once you trust your thrower, you'll find that every 20 rounds may be too often, depending on powder. Just like getting nervous over +/- .1 of a gr. If you use loading blocks and just simply look into the cases before seating bullets, even with low powder charges, it's easy to see if there is powder in the case or not or even if it's all the same.
 
Now-my main question, since I loaded about 200 rounds like this is-"Are the remaining rounds (after checking that total weight is 233 gr or higher), safe to fire?" Or do I pull the bullets, and rebuild with new powder drops?
Click to expand...

No point in weighing the ammo after it's loaded to look for squibs, or for that matter doubles with 5.7 gr of powder IMO.
Weigh a bunch of cases, odds are 2-5 gr between cases maybe more (maybe less if they are out for the same lot of brass but they could all be out of the same box of new ammo and have been different lots of brass at the factory...)
add your .5 to 1gr for a bullet and I wouldn't trust weighing them
You could shoot them watching for squibs but the little man in the back of my mind would be telling me if one didn't have any powder one might be a double charge...
 
higgite said:
I'd suggest a brass rod. A lot less likely to damage the barrel crown and/or lands.

Edit: Bwana John types faster then I do.
Click to expand...
I would suggest a wooden dowel, I am a Range officer and always have a couple in my range bag while wrkg. I have had to tap out several. It does not take a 16 oz hammer either , just a very small hammer and a dowel will do it.
 
roque5 said:
I would suggest a wooden dowel, I am a Range officer and always have a couple in my range bag while wrkg. I have had to tap out several. It does not take a 16 oz hammer either , just a very small hammer and a dowel will do it.
Click to expand...
NOooooo!
I would NOT recommend a wooden dowel!
The correct tool for the job is a brass rod, as close to bore diameter as possible.
Some bore obstruction can be very hard to clear.
When the wooden dowel cracks, splinters, breaks off, and wedges into the bullet ( and sooner or later it will, it's WOOD!) it creates a problem that can be very hard to resolve.
 
Yup, stay away from a wooden dowel, an old length of brass or aluminum cleaning rod won’t damage your steel bore and they’ll stay intact when pushing a tight fitting bullet out. If it’s tough to move and a wooden towel splits as it’s being tapped, the pieces wedging between bullet and bore is one thing that’ll really make a lousy situation worse.

I know it’s slow, but I had several instances with an auto disk measure on a progressive throwing light charges about ten years ago. I started hand-charging every case and seating the bullets immediately with a single stage. Yeah, loading a lot of rounds takes me a long time, but I’ve never had an issue since.

I wish you the best finding a routine that keeps your loads consistent and safe, once you do and stick to it you’ll be all set :thumbup:.

Stay safe.
 
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