Question about converting AR postol lower to SBR LATER

You CAN turn a pistol into an SBR after filing the paperwork. The receiver is transferred as "other" if it does not have a barrel assembly attached. My Googlefu fails me on the exact BATFE link, but I am sure somone who has gone this route will be along with the links. (I just researched it while contemplating doing the same thing, but changed my mind).

Your dealer has absolutely no idea what he's doing.

First, your receiver shouldn't be sold as a pistol on the 4473 (nor should it be sold as a rifle), it should simply be sold as a receiver. This isn't an option, this is the way the ATF wants it done every time. The dealer should check the "Other Firearm" box on question 18, and then he should write "receiver" in box 29. Anything else is wrong, and a dealer who doesn't know this by now shouldn't be in business.

And second, even if it was sold as a complete pistol, it can still be made into an SBR later; you can make an SBR out of a pistol. Or a rifle. Or a receiver. Etc...

The only issue with whether you first make your receiver into a pistol is this: Many people are interpreting ATF ruling 2011-4 as applying to SBRs also. That ruling says that if something is first made as a pistol then it can go back and forth between being configured as a pistol or rifle, but if it's made as a rifle first it can't ever be configured as a pistol.

The ATF only considers something to be an SBR if it's currently in an SBR configuration. If you put a 16" barrel on your SBR, then it's a regular rifle as long as it's in that configuration. So lots of people are interpreting ATF ruling 2011-4 to mean that if your SBR lower receiver was first built as a pistol, it can be configured as a pistol if you remove the stock, and it won't be considered an SBR while in that configuration. But keep in mind that ruling 2011-4 doesn't mention SBRs at all, and the ATF hasn't offered any opinion on whether it applies to SBRs, so nobody really knows if it does or not.


Here is a link to an ATF open letter to FFL dealers regarding the sale of receivers:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/o...ing-or-delivering-firearms-frames-or/download


Here is a link to ATF ruling 2011-4 regarding the configuration of pistols and rifles:

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/r...red-rifles-rifles-configured-pistols/download

Just to second what's been said, your dealer is 100% wrong.

First, if he's marking "pistol" on a 4473 for a stripped receiver, the ATF isn't going to be happy with him. That's not what dealers are instructed to do when transferring stripped lower receivers. It's a receiver, not a pistol or rifle until built as such, and can only be transferred as an "other."

On top of that, it just simply does not matter what the 4473 says. It's not a registration document. It's just a transfer document. It doesn't set in stone what can be done with any firearm.

In addition, the ATF has made clear that it is legal to make a stripped receiver into a pistol, then a rifle, and then it can later be returned to a pistol.

On the other hand, if a stripped receiver is first made into a rifle, it can never be a pistol.

So: first a rifle, always a rifle. If first a pistol, then you can freely switch between rifle and pistol as much as you want.

But NONE of that has anything to do with constructing a legal short-barreled rifle. If you file the paperwork to make a short-barreled rifle, ANY firearm can be used as the basis. You can make a stripped receiver into an SBR. You can make a pistol into an SBR. You can make a rifle into an SBR.

In summary, this dealer has absolutely no idea what he's talking about and no business giving you advice about it.

Aaron

In summary, this dealer has absolutely no idea what he's talking about and no business giving you advice about it.

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^ Truth. And, sadly, this degree of ignorance appears to be the norm, not the exception, with dealers.

I asked him about checking the box on the 4473 for other, and he said that is for Bazookas.

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I have nothing High Road to say about that.

Amazing. Just amazing.

Aaron

I asked him about checking the box on the 4473 for other, and he said that is for Bazookas.

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I really hope that was a lame joke rather than his real understanding of said.

So ask him how much for a bazooka? Or if you can later convert your receiver to a bazooka?

Your dealer needs to learn to read plain English.

JIMMYK said:

I asked him about checking the box on the 4473 for other, and he said that is for Bazookas.

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Holy....

Wow. I'm as dumbfounded as Aaron is.

JIMMYK said:

I am wondering what my options are now.

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First off, don't use this dealer ever again. If this guy is so completely and utterly clueless about this one simple issue, then imagine how clueless he is with the rest of his business.

As for what to do about it, I suppose it doesn't make that much difference on your end if he transfers it to you as a pistol instead of a receiver. Still, I would want all the 4473s that link to my firearms to be correct; I don't want the records to show that I bought a pistol when I did no such thing.

I recommend showing this dealer the ATF letter I linked to above. The 4473 has had an "other" category on question 18 since 2008, and it's time he learn about it. If that doesn't work you might try calling the ATF, because no dealer should be allowed to transfer you the wrong type of firearm out of willfull ignorance.

First off, don't use this dealer ever again. If this guy is so completely and utterly clueless about this one simple issue, then imagine how clueless he is with the rest of his business.

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I had thought I'd heard everything. I was wrong ...again.

I bought an AR lower. It was transferred to me as an "other". It was marked, "pistol". I built it into a pistol. Then I did a Form 1 to make it an SBR.

Your dealer is an idiot.

So ask him how much for a bazooka? Or if you can later convert your receiver to a bazooka?

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You can do so if you register the receiver as a Destructive Device.

Came late to this discussion. A dealer must transfer a receiver as an "other" or he is breaking the law. Pistol or rifle first has no detrimental effect on later NFA configurations but pistol first allows more flexibility within Title I because of the "first a rifle, always a rifle rule). I always assemble everything as a pistol first for that reason.

Mike

Question is pretty much answered but to put a cherry on top, I have an approved SBR that started as a pistol (as do many others) so first hand knowledge right here that it's A OK.

(AK47 PAP pistol)

And receivers definitely need to be checked as Other not pistol.

JIMMYK said:

I ordered this receiver from AIM Surplus, and called them today and they agree with every one here, that it should be registered as Other.
Again thanks for all the help. Jimmy

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In Ohio, there is no *registration* per se. The 4473 is a form for the background check.

It makes precious little difference if the 4473 is correct or not. It was manufactured as a stripped receiver and sent to the shop as a stripped receiver then somehow it became a pistol because it was marked that way on a 4473 at a gun shop? That's not how it works.

Your dealer is wrong, but it effects you exactly zero. You are free to build your receiver however you wish. As noted above 2011-4 means you can make your pistol into a legal rifle (either long barreled or with the correct paperwork, a SBR) and then back again without any fear of breaking any rules. As long as you make the PISTOL variety first!

If you're really worried about it, you can ask the manufacturer for a letter on their letter head stating clearly that this receiver was manufactured and sold as a stripped receiver only. Then keep that for your own peace of mind.

Enjoy.

rjrivero said:

As noted above 2011-4 means you can make your pistol into a legal rifle (either long barreled or with the correct paperwork, a SBR) and then back again without any fear of breaking any rules. As long as you make the PISTOL variety first!

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That's not necessarily true. As I noted above, there is nothing in 2011-4 that specifically indicates it applies to SBRs; 2011-4 is specifically dealing with Title I pistols and rifles.

So until the ATF furthers clarifies it, or until there is case law on the subject, nobody knows for sure if 2011-4 applies to SBRs or not.

This thread has made me realize that I should take every lower I have and build it into a pistol. Take a date stamped picture with the serial number visible for my records, then take it apart and use those parts on the next lower, and so on until I have done them all.

Just in case, and it really does not take very long to get 'picture ready'.


.

I think it's pretty much assumed that every stripped receiver is built as a pistol first
I wouldn't bother taking pictures to prove it.

I would take what Theohazard says with a huge grain of salt, there is no law that prohibits an SBR from returning to it's original configuration (even a pistol). If there is, someone cite it for us.

Ryanxia said:

I think it's pretty much assumed that every stripped receiver is built as a pistol first
I wouldn't bother taking pictures to prove it.

I would take what Theohazard says with a huge grain of salt, there is no law that prohibits an SBR from returning to it's original configuration (even a pistol). If there is, someone cite it for us.

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It would be in the definition of a Short Barrelled Rifle:
"Short-barreled rifle. A rifle having one or more barrels less than 16 inches in length, and any weapon made from a rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise, if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches."

The definition of a rifle:
"Rifle. A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder, and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger."

And the definition of a pistol:
"Pistol. A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s)."

Without a ruling, it would not be clear that you could return an SBR to a title 1 configuration and it not still meet the definition of an SBR as a "weapon made from a rifle". Ruling 2011-4 allows that a pistol may be made into a title 1 rifle and returned to title 1 pistol status. Without the ruling, the argument could be made that the weapon then was a "weapon made from a rifle" regardless that it still met the definition of a pistol. Since 2011-4 seems to specifically exclude SBRs, another ruling might be needed.

So if your interpretation is correct and you are not allowed to put it back to a pistol. What would they charge you with after say, removing the stock? (Which is all I would need to do to put mine back to a pistol).

They can't charge you with having an illegal SBR because you've already paid the tax stamp. I just don't see how you could be in violation of NFA law.

Edit: Of course now that they ruled how you use an item is "redesigning" it even without changing components, it's all a complete mess.

So if your interpretation is correct and you are not allowed to put it back to a pistol. What would they charge you with after say, removing the stock? (Which is all I would need to do to put mine back to a pistol).

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It would be a stockless rifle.

The Form 1 states that you are "making" a rifle. You have to engrave your info on it (name, city, and state of "manufacture"). Once the NFA weapon is "made," it is no longer a pistol. It is a rifle. If you stick a 16" barrel on it and sell it, it is a Rifle, not a Pistol.

The act of "making" prevents you from going back to a pistol.