RCBS Questions from new reloader

I have an RCBS Rockchucker from the early 70's on my bench. It is my only bench mounted press. I load over 40 calibers with it. Other brands work fine too, but I have been very happy with my RCBS equipment. I love the Redding micrometer seating dies though for working up loads. I have a few of them on the rack. All of my pistol dies are RCBS, they still work just fine.

depending on the volume you plan on doing will determine your need to go up to a turret or progressive. For pistol usually you want to crank out as much ammo as possible in shortest amount of time but if you're only shooting a few hundreds rds a month then a single stage will be ok. Try to leave the mindset of just sticking to one manufacturer for everything, many things may be better from manufacturer to another. Dillon has a better this or Hornady has a better that or rcbs makes the best this etc.. Also I've never trimmed any straight wall brass of any caliber

Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk

The RCBS dies are great, but look into carbide sets. No need to trim straight wall pistol cases

I have that kit and I am real happy with it. The press is suitable for all but the largest rifle calibers. You will not need a trimmer until you start working with rifles. I would start with the hammer type bullet puller first, you can pick up another type later if needed. The powder measure comes with the large drum that will be OK with most loads but if you start using light charges, less than 3 or 4 grains, the small drum may be needed.

Actually the small pistol drum is recommend for charges < 10-15gr. Depending on pistol caliber you may need to trim straight wall brass to get a consistent roll crimp. The majority of my dies are RCBS or Hornady with some Redding sets. I find that the TiNi coated dies require less effort to use when sizing. I like the drop down bullet alignment sleeve on my Hornady dies. Then you get into competition sets which are a step above the rest due to added features. As long as you go the Cast Iron press you will be in good shape. The Al presses work just fine except they are not as rigid as the cast steel. I would not get locked on just one mfg brand dies. There are others out there that are better for specific functions. If your wanting to go Made in the USA, look at Redding Boss II or there Turret press. Starting out, Kits are probably the best way to get started. Even though you may replace/upgrade some of the equipment.

If I was just starting out today knowing what I know now I would start with oNE of the Redding T-7's. I started out with a Dillon 550B and still use it for most of my pistol reloading. I also used 2 RCBS Rock Chuckers for aboUT 15 years for loading for bottleneck cartridges. I recently bought one of the Redding T-7's and it replaced one of my Rock Chuckers. I now leave 3 sets of my most used riflexible die sets setup and ready to go with just a twist of the turret head. I have added 2 additional turret heads and this gives me 9 different calibers ready to load taking much less time to swap turret heads than it does to change pistol calibers on the Dillon. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a RCBS Rockchucker for starting off but since you asked about a turret thought I would give you my thoughts about which one to get. The T-7 appears to have very little movement in the turret head when resizing brass from .223 up 7mm Mag. Hope this helps.

200Apples said:

Here is just one of the things I don't know: I like the idea of loading with a single-stage press but would I benefit from (if possible to add it...) a turret?

Click to expand...

Personally, I see little advantage of a turret press over a single stage. Buy a single stage and use the extra cash that might have been spent on a turret to buy other reloading goodies.

But, there are folks that really like their turrets.

(As a side note, the Lee turret presses have some advantages over the RCBS, Redding or Lyman turrets because of their auto advance feature of the turret and budget price.)

You cannot go wrong with RCBS equipment.

For almost 40 years I was satisfied with my RCBS JR3 single stage press.

I began with only RCBS dies but, when I expanded my operation, quickly started adding some of the Lee products (at first for price but then realized they made decent products). Now most of my dies are Lee with the pistol Seater dies (w/assortment of seater plugs) being RCBS and an RCBS Cowboy Expander die (along with assorted sizes of plugs) for use with lead bullets, to minimize the bullet base swaging.

I currently have dies/equipment for reloading 15-20 different calibers.

~19 months ago, after researching the field, I purchased a 4-Station Lee Classic Turret press ($98.17, delivered) and have yet to use my JR3 since setting it up.

During this time I have loaded multiple different pistol cartridges (up to .44/.45) and .223/5.56 rifle cartridges. I still have a slightly lingering question regarding the LCT and reloading assorted, full-power, ".30cal-level" rifle cartridges ... but it easily handled the hundreds of .223/5.56 cartridges that I crafted with it, so ...

Once I get back to reloading the .30cals I may use the JR3 as a separate station for resizing just to minimize stress on the LCT ... then again, maybe not ...

Some of the initial things that drew me to the LCT: I wouldn't have to keep resetting dies as I progressed thru the reloading steps (ala Loading Block Methodology), inexpensive "turrets" (~$10) that could be preset for each caliber, easy/quick to convert/use as either a turret or single stage press, the addition of a real "production mode" to my setup so that I could much more rapidly crank out quantities of cartridges (especially valuable to me for semi-auto pistol cartridges).

FWIW ...

I've always thought it best for a new reloader to start out single stage. It's not money wasted if/when you upgrade to a turret or progressive because a single stage is handy to have on your bench for many reasons.

You will learn what happens with each operation better than when 3 or 4 things are happening at once.

Laphroaig

Relative to Customer Service ...

In my experience, it just doesn't get any better than RCBS. I have had several occasions to contact them about issues with some of my RCBS equipment and each_time they shipped a replacement to me at no charge ... and one of those instances involved me losing some parts in a move! WHOA!

I have had occasion to contact Lee Precision about issues with some of my Lee equipment and was very satisfied with their responsiveness and willingness to supply replacement/corrective parts ...

... just something Above&Beyond-feeling about RCBS CS, though.

Hard to go wrong with RCBS - great company and excellent products. In particular, the Rock Chucker is the perfect single stage press, and I personally believe that ALL new reloaders, without exception, should start with a single stage press to develop not only good and safe ammunition, but the proper loading habits and techniques that will last a lifetime of safe loading. You will ALWAYS have some use for the single stage, even if you later decide to buy a turret or progressive press to go with it.

I think you are VERY smart to start with a quality single stage press.

I personally do not buy RCBS dies anymore because I detest the stupid brass set screw in the lock rings - I only want split lock rings for any dies that I regularly insert and remove from a single stage press. I personally prefer Lee dies, not only are they considerably cheaper than other brands, but they have some special features that you just do not get elsewhere that I think add even more value. AND they come with a shell holder that everyone else makes you buy separately.

The lock rings on Lee dies are different than all others - no set screw of any type - they just use rubber o-rings to make a friction fit - this makes die adjustment without tools very easy, and I think that design is perfect for turret mounting. I do not, however, like the Lee lock rings for use on dies in a single stage press where it is difficult to not mess up your specific die adjustment when spinning the dies in and out. The solution is simple - just buy cheap slit lock rings from either Lyman or Hornady to use on the Lee dies. Or even better, just buy the Hornady LNL bushing adapter kit to use with the Rock Chucker press, and then you will not be spinning dies in and out at all.

When buying dies, no mater what brand you chose, only buy carbide or titanium nitride dies for straight-wall cases. And for any revolver calibers, only buy standard 3-die sets; do not ever waste your money buying 4-die sets with the extra Factory Crimp Die (Lee) - it has absolutely zero value for calibers that roll-crimp. The FCD does have occasional value for taper crimp rounds, such as 9mm, .40S&W or .45ACP, but never for roll crimp calibers (just my opinion, others are free to disagree).

The vast majority of experienced loaders feel that you do not need to trim straight-wall handgun brass, and I almost agree. In fact, until recently I used to agree 100% (and I have been loading for over 40 years). The only exception I have found comes with many reloads for magnum cartridges that need strong roll crimp, such as .357 or .44. If you shoot lots of full magnum loads, and continuously reload the same small group of brass many times, you will eventually start having trouble with a few of them crimping early in the final step, causing slight case bulges that affect chambering in some guns. If that happens, you will either need to scrap the brass or trim it. But do not worry about it - most likely it will be many years before you ever see that, if at all, so absolutely no need to buy case trimming stuff for handgun calibers for a long time.

As for any additional equipment - with a single stage press you WILL need loading blocks - at least two that hold 50 rounds each. Lots of people will tell you that you need a hand priming tool, but I personally disagree. I love using the stock priming arm on my very old Rock Chucker press, and I find that I have excellent feel for how tight the primer pockets are and when the primers are seating properly. I rarely clean brass other than to wipe off any obvious dirt or other crud - I find other cleaning process a complete waste of time and money. It is totally up to you if you value the shine of new brass or not, but it has zero effect on the way your reloads will perform.

I've used the Rock Chucker ever sense they have been on the market and
have been totally satisfied! Turret is faster but I load during the cold months
and burn em in the summer.I also used RCBS dies.
Dan

You might think people are loyal to their local sports team or the car brand they drive but nothing compares to the product loyalty of reloading equipment owners. It's almost like we are getting sales commissions.

As is true of anything, you get what you pay for. If you buy a kit that costs $100.00, it will load ammo. If you pay $300.00 it also will load ammo but will have better workmanship and more robust construction.

When it comes to dies, if you want to buy Lee dies just add a few dollars to the cost and purchase split lock rings from one of the other suppliers and replace the one that come with the dies. This is not something to obsess over as some do.

With a single stage or turret press in general there are options, some not good options for priming. A priming arm that attaches to the press usually requires that you pick up each individual primer and place them in this priming arm cup. Not fun. Other handloaders use and like a hand held tool. I know that RCBS and Redding make optional press mounted primer tools, they cost some but are nice. A good bench mounted priming tool is around $90.00 but work nice.

In addition to the RCBS which is a mainstay in this business, look at the Redding line they are quite robust. One piece of advice since you are asking for advice is figure out which caliber you consume the most ammo and focus on that caliber first. Instead of buying 6 or 7 die sets, take that money and throw it at the best press you can get. Keep in mind you get what you pay for. The Rockchucker kit your considering is good sold stuff. I started out with this 3 years ago, no real regrets however I have at this point vastly expanded my collection of presses and other hardware. Mine came with a 5-0-5 scale which it actually a nice scale. RCBS has made a change in the scale, I tried a friends and it just as good in my opinion. The uniflow powder measure is fantastic. You will however need to buy the small pistol insert drum as another poster has noted. I think it now comes with the Nosler handbook, mine came with the Speer but most seriour handloaders have those two books and a few others also. Again it's a good kit ad worth the cost but it is geared more to the rifle handloader not pistol.

There really isn't a "kit" that is geared to the pistol reloader. If you are loading any more than a few 100 rounds per month of pistol then cut to the chase and get a progressive. I know it seems like a lot of money and I resisted it for about 2 years, going from a single stage then a turret. But then finally reality kicked in and that was that. You may be different but once I started handloading my ammo consumption took a quantum jump in volume. It's getting to the point that 500 rounds per hour seems slow.

Get a chronograph!

I bought a Rock Chucker used a few years back from the father of a friend of my father, whose eyes were too bad to continue shooting. The thing is pretty old, and it still works like a charm. Most people load on a single stage and they do just fine. My brother has a Hornady Lock-N-Load single stage, and he thinks it is the cat's meow.

I personally have started reloading for: 5.7x28mm FN, 9mm Luger, .357 Sig, 9x25mm Dillon, .357 Mag, .40 S&W, 10mm Auto, .400 Corbon, .40 Super, .460 S&W Mag, .50 AE, .223 Rem, .270 Win, and .308 Win. I have dies for .50 GI, .44-40, .44 AMP and .44 Mag, but haven't loaded for them yet

Even with all these calibers, a single stage is just fine for me. There is a reason why I would recommend NOT STARTING on a turret or progressive press: There is a learning curve to reloading, and you are likely going to make mistakes. The single stage press makes you focus on one stage at a time, and that is especially good for new loaders. Start with a SINGLE STAGE press. From there, once you get good, and you have all your loads to all your calibers worked up, I'd recommend you graduate up to a progressive press, if you decide to change press types at all. Non-single stage presses are only really good for "mass producing" a load, and you won't be doing that until you have settled on a particular load. Here is some advice, as I consider myself having just graduated from "beginner" reloader to "novice:"

- Resist the urge to start big. Only load a handful of rounds with each load. Try them out and record their accuracy and velocity. Do a lot of experimenting before going full scale production.
- Straight wall pistol cases have needed no trimming in my experience.
- I have purchased a lot of stuff for relaoding, and a good quality digital scale is always worth the money. Having a second as a backup is not a bad idea. Also, a good powder trickle is an excellent tool to have.
- Having headspace gauges for shouldered cartridges is a good idea.
- Hornady Lock Rings. They do not have the tension screw resting on the die threads like RCBS lock rings, and they have parallel flat surfaces for use with a wrench.
- Ammo boxes. Have enough ammo storage for ALL the brass and ammo you will have. Different colors may help differentiate between twice fired and thrice fired brass, or it could help differentiate between .44 Mag and .41 Mag.
- Collecting data is key. Too much data is better than not enough. Have some sort of standardized document on which you can record data for each experimental load; COAL, charge weight, primer type, individual velocities, velocity statistics (like the standard deviation and extremem spread), group sizes, your perception of recoil, nature of malfunctions, etc.
- But most of all: CHRONOGRAPH! Unless you know how your gun is shooting these loads, and how one loading differs from the next, working up the right load is a futile effort.
- Start with a single caliber. .44 Magnum would be good because there is so much data on it. Play around with it, like trying different bullet weights, or whatever, and find the load or two that both you and your gun like. From there, you can "mass produce" that load. After you are set on a particular load for the .44 Mag, go on to the .41 Mag. Rinse and repeat. As somebody who loads a lot of calibers, I can tell you that trying to develop several loads at a time can be a little confusing. Cut the hassle and go one at a time.

But get a chronograph before you start loading. RCBS markets one. Learn how to use it, and get some replacement parts, because you will accidentally shoot it at some point. If you don't accidentally shoot it, somebody else probably will.

Glad you mentioned the loading blocks. The Rock Chucker kit I'm looking at comes with a hand-priming tool. If you've looked at the press in this kit, does it appear to feature the primer process of your older Chucker too?

Click to expand...

Looks like that kit comes with one loading block - IMHO you will want at least two of them. The press has changed quite a bit since the early 70s, but it seems to still have a priming arm on it (mounted a bit differently, but sticking out in front of the ram. The old ones were spring loaded and standing upright in front of the ram - you do have to pick each primer up and put it in the cup, but it seems a natural motion for me to do concurrently with raising the ram. That new one looks like the arm is hinged to hang upside down - no idea if it will be as convenient to use or not - but what the hey, you are getting a hand priming tool anyway. Most people seem to really like the hand tool for this - I do not simply because it seems like wasted extra effort to have to handle the brass another time to put it in that extra tool. Me, I just stick the primer in while the shell is coming out of the resizer - have to move my thumb maybe one inch to do it - no extra effort at all!

BTW - I just looked at that RCBS kit again - says the loading block that comes with it only holds 40 shells - that will drive you NUTS when loading handgun calibers that typically are 50/box! (I count 50 in the picture, but the description SAYS 40.) Get a couple of GOOD loading blocks that hold at least 50 each. If you can find ones that hold 60 each, that is even better, as it allows you to separate processed cases from those yet un-processed during the batch - for example, while charging with powder, you can have all the uncharged cases on the right side of the block and start placing the charged ones on the left side with an empty row or two between them and the uncharged cases - just an extra safety margin in your process. You can accomplish the same thing by simply using two reloading blocks during the batch.

I agree with Mauser69 40 cavity loading block is going to be a pain. If you have a drill press you can make a bunch of them:

The MTM plastic loading blocks cost about $7.00, the frankford arsenal brand are less but caliber specific.

The priming arm that comes with the rockchucker works but I don't care for it. RCBS makes a larger arm called the universal priming arm, it's about $15.00 better but not my cup of tea. The kit did come with a hand primer which is ok. They make an optional press mounted priming tool $40.00 here it is, this works nice. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/131071/rcbs-rock-chucker-supreme-press-auto-priming-unit This is the bench mounted unit I spoke of , really nice http://www.midwayusa.com/product/457599/rcbs-automatic-bench-priming-tool

Everyone eventually develops their own preferences for equipment layout and workflow, but see my post #33 in this thread for thoughts on positioning the powder measure for efficient use with the press:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=10244523&postcount=33

The great efficiency of this process for me depends on using the press mounted priming arm: I insert empty brass, raise it into the resizing die while placing primer in cup, push primer arm forward with thumb and lower ram to seat primer, grab resized and primed brass from press and move it a couple of inches to the powder measure drop tube and rack the handle to drop the powder, then put the charged case in the priming block (or dump the powder in the scale pan if I am weighing charges). Brass only handled one time (for rifle cases) before the bullet seating stage. Handgun cases need an extra die for expanding, but the process is essentially the same.

Since you will be using an external stage to prime the case, it will not be quite as efficient. For handgun cases, however, the need for the separate expander die makes the process very similar - you would resize/decap as stage one, reprime as stage two, then mount the powder measure under the expander die for stage three and seat/crimp bullets for stage four.

200Apples said:

Oh, outstanding. I see where, while the right hand is poised to operate the press arm, your fingertips are already at the powder measure lever arm... I like the ergonomics, there.

If you look again at the RCBS kit below, do you see a similar mounting strap (similar to the one in your 70's rig, but thinner stock, I'm sure...) at the base of the Uniflow?

And on the base of the press itself, what is that small black arm positioned at 6 o'clock? I've never seen a reloading press up close and personal, so this is a serious Q. BTW, I appreciate your continued involvement in this thread (the rig was ordered yesterday! and will be at my door tomorrow evening).

My order included die sets for .41 and .44 Magnum... and I took your advice and purchased the Hornady LNL Press and Die Conversion Bushing Kit. I'm guessing that the die set includes an expander die? Is that what a die "set" means? It should be abundantly clear that I have no idea what I'm doing at least until I unpack this kit... :-|

Click to expand...

The powder measure does have a flat mounting bracket attached to it - the main difference between it and my old one is that the holes on both ends are round instead of open slots, meaning that instead of just loosening the die it is mounted under, you would have to completely remove the die to take the powder measure off. That problem is easily fixed simply by cutting out the end of the bracket to make that hole a long slot.

Now for some bad news - if you are using the LNL bushings, you will never be spinning dies in and out of the press (that is a good thing), but you also will not be able to put the powder measure bracket under the bushing when you insert the expander die. You would have to remove the die from the bushing to mount the powder measure, and that completely destroys the whole point of having the bushings! The solution is relatively simple - just buy some flat bar stock at the hardware store and make a new mounting bracket for each die set, then leave it permanently attached to the die in the bushing - a little cumbersome for die storage, perhaps, but it is an option. Probably a better solution is to make a single mounting bracket with a hole big enough to go under the bushing adapter mounted in the top of the press (it will replace that big black die adapter you see in the picture) and just leave the mounting bar permanently attached to the top of the press.

And if you have purchased Lee dies, this all becomes almost a moot point - you will find that the Lee dies have a special feature that allows a powder measure to be mounted directly to the expander die and automatically dispenses the powder directly through the die into the case - no need for you to touch anything beyond just raising the ram to expand the case neck. To use this feature you will need to buy the Lee AutoDrum powder measure. You do not NEED to take advantage of that charging feature, but if you have the dies, I cannot imagine why anyone would not do so.

I am not sure which little black arm you are asking about - the one in the middle of the press at the same level as the top of the ram (it sticks out forward and hangs down at an angel) is the priming arm. I am sure it is removable if you are not going to use it. There is another little black appendage at the very bottom of the press linkage - that is different than my old Rock Chucker, but I assume it is just part of the connection between the linkage and the base of the ram.

And now I must chastise you a little - your final question indicates you have done no learning or research before diving into this - very bad. As many of us have said early in this thread, you cannot go wrong with RCBS equipment, so you have not hurt yourself that way, but your lack of knowledge puts you in significant danger if you do not rectify the problem before you try to use ANYTHING. Your kit comes with a reloading manual - READ IT FIRST!!!!! I have not personally seen that book (my only Nosler manual is the very original and quite thin first edition), but I am sure it contains lots of valuable information on leaning to reload in the first 1/2 of the book. READ IT, EVERY PAGE of it up to the point the caliber-specific data starts. Better yet, immediately buy any edition of the Lyman reloading manual (the 49th edition is available cheap now) or my favorite - Richard Lee's Modern Reloading and read that manual too. It is always good to have multiple reference books, and although a fair amount of the instructions and theory in each of them is redundant, Lee's book has quite a bit of information you will not find in any other.

PLEASE do not attempt to use your shiny new equipment without reading all of the info in at least one of these books!!! Do not just read the parts that seem interesting or contain specific how-to instructions, read it ALL. You do not yet have a clue about what you do not know that you do not know, and that is what makes you dangerous. No book will teach you everything, but it CAN enlighten you enough to begin to understand when you do not know something that can hurt you.

Finally, I will answer your question about die "sets" (you will also lean this in any book): All reloading requires at least two dies (the "set"). Bottleneck cartridges can be decapped, resized AND neck expended (required to allow a new bullet to be inserted after resizing) with a single die, but you still need a second die to properly insert and seat a new bullet. Therefore, rifle caliber dies typically consist of a 2-die set. Straight-wall cartridges cannot be neck expanded in the same die that is used to resize the case; therefore, handgun caliber dies typically are 3-die sets.

BTW - you may want to return the "Magnum" die sets and buy "Special" dies instead (depending on what brand you bought). I have no idea if the .41 has a shorter cartridge that can be shot in the same gun, but the .44 certainly does, both the .44 Russian and the .44 special.

Some brands of dies are only made in one size that can load them all (and they are labeled as such), so it makes no difference if you ordered a .44 Special or .44 Magnum, you get the same dies. But Not all brands are like that (unfortunately)!

Lee is an example - they make different dies for the .44 Russian, .44 Spl AND the .44 Mag. If you order the .44 Russian dies, you can load all three calibers with the same dies, but if you order the .44 Magnum dies, that is all you can reload, just the magnums. Most folks will never see a .44 Russian, but just about any reloader with a .44 Mag will eventually want to reload the .44 Spl too.

And now a word on components you will need to buy to get started. First, you should be VERY CAREFUL to ONLY follow the specific relaoding data for you intended cartridge EXACTLY - do not think that you can substitute stuff and be "close enough". That is part of why I am so insistent that you RTFM FIRST!

But now that I have said that, I will give you a few pointers on how to get started (and even violate some of my own advice).

Bullets: Do try to stick to exact load data recommendations, especially at first. While there are many types of bullets that are quite similar and CAN be safely substituted, there are others that can have a big impact on pressure, and you must learn a lot more before you can start making those decisions.

Primers: Most of us feel that just about any brand of primer in the correct size and specification for the load are equally interchangeable. E.g., if the manual calls for CCI primers, you should feel fine using Winchester if that is what you have (and vice versa).

"Magnum" primers need a special note here - magnum primers have NOTHING to do with magnum cartridges! Some powders are a bit harder to ignite smoothly, and those specific powders NEED magnum primers for reliability. Other powders never need magnum primers, no matter if they are used in magnum loads or not. Unfortunately, many authors of reloading manuals seem to be just too danged lazy to properly note the differences, and many books just blindly specify magnum primers for ANY data that is for a magnum cartridge. This is dumb, to the point of being asinine, but it is safe. So if the data you are using calls for magnum primers, it is best to use them unless you specifically know otherwise. And if you buy Winchester Large Pistol primers, you simplify it even more, since those are listed for BOTH regular and magnum loads in the same primer.

Now for Powders - BIG subject with LOTS of possible options (IF you can find them): As a new loader, you are not going to want to buy many different powders to fit all kinds of data, so the challenge is to figure out which ones are most versatile to start with. You have said you will load .41 Mag and .44 Mag, so that gives us a good starting point. No powder does everything well, but there are several that come fairly close in those types of big cases. I will list the ones I know and use - there are many other good options.

Perhaps the two most common and highly respected powders that will give you lots of options are 2400 and Unique. 2400 is one of the absolute best magnum-level powders that is also flexible enough to be downloaded to mid-level in the same caliber. Unique has been around for over 100 years, and there are many of us that feel if we could only have a single handgun powder, it would have to be Unique! Its name specifically says it all, it is unique in that it has more flexibility and performs well is more different calibers, large and small, than just about anything else. It can be downloaded to light levels, and it can still produce impressive magnum-level loads.

If you really want magnum levels and cannot find 2400 or Unique, then consider Accurate No. 7 or even 800-X; both are flexible powders that can get to magnum levels.

If you intend to load mostly mild-level stuff, you have lots of other great options, and Accurate No.5, Zip or 700-X might be my first choice there.

Choosing any of those powders will give you lots of options for a verity of different loads with published load data.

I started out 30 years ago with a Rockchucker. Still going strong. Recently purchased a Dillion 550 for those high count rounds (9 and 223). But everything else will still be done on the RCBS.

One thing I did do on the RCBS a few years ago was to add the Hornady quick change conversion bushing to the top of the press and fitted most of my dies with the quick change bushing. It made changing dies in and out a whole lot easier for me.