Dissapointed and no longer buying Remington

Yo Mama · Sep 23, 2016

Ok, so let's see so far:

1. 870 I own : barrel out of spec, was locking up so bad I couldn't cycle it while bird hunting, Remington told me to polish barrel, then finally sent a new barrel.

2. 700 I own : recall, for decades they knew it needed to be recalled, still won't admit the design of the original Walker trigger was bad, Walker even said it wasn't safe, but the new trigger was supposed to be betterer (yes I made that word up), and still recalled though

3. R51 which I'd never own: recalled immediately after release, years to rerelease the 2nd generation, and I'm seeing these don't work any better with tons of feeding issues.

Why has Remington firearms suffered so bad over the last years? In the future I just don't see that I'd buy another one, which is sad because I was raised that Remington is quality.

I6turbo · Sep 23, 2016

Generally speaking, it's what most of us would call poor management, which is frequently driven by short-term thinking on the part of of company heads. The list of companies (not particularly gun companies) who operate this way is massive.

When high-level decisions are driven by a focus on quarterly profit results, this year's profit results, or even results for the next 3 - 5 years, this is what very often happens. You see it in all manner of companies. By the time a significant percentage of consumers figure it out and the brands are severely damaged or destroyed (that takes a while for a company such as Remington with it's history of quality products - witness the people who still give Remington 2nd and 3rd chances with the disastrous R51), the people who made those destructive decisions are long gone with giant bonuses, and set for life (and probably their kids' lives).

But while we may call it poor management, those people at the high levels probably see it differently. They end up looking at it like strip mining. They come in, do what they need to do to meet the corporate objectives of relatively short term profits, then leave the devastation behind and depart with their rewards.

Shaq · Sep 23, 2016

Outsourcing of parts for cheaper manufacture.

Other manufacturing shortcuts to cut costs. It's happening in all industries.

RavenTai · Sep 23, 2016

This may be my bias showing, but I get the feeling remington had long been a company drirected by MBA types, not really gun people.

I have an 870, my particular example is a good gun, not as smooth as my fabarm but not as expensive either.

The 700 has become the small block Chevy of the bolt action world, with a great potential for accuracy. But many wind up with few Remington parts on them.

Both of these designs are older than I am.

I can't think of another modern remington I would have a desire for?

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Tirod · Sep 23, 2016

By most of the accounts I've read, the latest R51 is working ok. Maybe some links to those who report differently would help as new buyers would like to know.

The 700? Arguable. It's commonly unloaded by racking the rounds thru the chamber, the original triggers were user adjustable, and the public is notoriously adept at reducing the trigger pull to race gun levels while never cleaning or maintaining the trigger group itself. So layers of gun oil congealing onto the operating surfaces is one reason the trigger "fails" and we get ND's. Across the board, most firearms have problems with ammo, mags, and users. I chalk that last one up as the major issue with R700's - tinkering with light trigger pulls and not popping the rounds out of the mag to reduce firing a round off in the chamber.

As for the 870 no company makes a perfect gun every time. Sorry for your experience there - others have made as much of it with other brands. It's a universal problem with firearms manufacturing, if they only ship perfect guns, then the price doubles or triples. All to keep a handful from getting off the dock every year. Sadly, it's cheaper to have a Customer Service Department.

Line up the past five years failures in firearms known on the boards, and every gunmaker should be boycotted for making junk. None have escaped it. What we really are seeing is breaking news on production within weeks of the guns fielding - because Internet. We get feedback much sooner than we used to and in the old days a lot of it was only word of mouth from FFL's and distributors returning a specific model more than normal. If you were in that inside circle you knew about it. Much like when Fram moved a plant to Mexico and their Ford filter became notorious in the industry for losing the end cap and causing motors to seize from no oil pressure. I lost one, nearly lost it's replacement, then found out what was going on months later. Today you would find out about it on the Inet within weeks. You wouldn't need to wait for your FFL or favorite counterman to whisper to you to avoid them like we used to.

If anything the peak of "Don't Buy Remington" passed 18 months back. Their new plant in Alabama is reputedly doing great work. We know because the products there are doing fine and that is the word going around. Now.

Words to the contrary? Link it so we can read it, curious minds like to know. And by the way, I've bought Remington products and am equally disappointed in management's lack of concern about making their production floor their priority, and said so. The Alabama plant seems to be the ticket.

dragon813gt · Sep 23, 2016

Somehow Marlin didn't make it onto the OP's list. They've murdered that brand. I do have a Remington made 1894C that made it out before they shut down production. It's worked flawlessly since I got it. But the QC problems w/ the entire brand have turned a lot of people off. They seem to have gotten their act together but it's taken years.

Remington is part of a large conglomerate that's only concerned about profits. The unlimited growth model combined w/ mergers/acquisitions is killing entire industries. They don't look at anything as a long term investment. It's all about selling it off to the next guy. Not going public would hopefully keep quality high but no one is interested in this anymore.

desidog · Sep 23, 2016

Me too... Too long and too boring to write the saga, but i said "never again."

ATN082268 · Sep 23, 2016

I6turbo said:
But while we may call it poor management, those people at the high levels probably see it differently. They end up looking at it like strip mining. They come in, do what they need to do to meet the corporate objectives of relatively short term profits, then leave the devastation behind and depart with their rewards.

I understand a business needs to make a profit to stay in business. Your analogy of strip mining is very appropriate as it leaves nothing left to continue operations...

Cannibul · Sep 23, 2016

dragon813gt said:
Somehow Marlin didn't make it onto the OP's list. They've murdered that brand. I do have a Remington made 1894C that made it out before they shut down production. It's worked flawlessly since I got it. But the QC problems w/ the entire brand have turned a lot of people off. They seem to have gotten their act together but it's taken years.

Remington is part of a large conglomerate that's only concerned about profits. The unlimited growth model combined w/ mergers/acquisitions is killing entire industries. They don't look at anything as a long term investment. It's all about selling it off to the next guy. Not going public would hopefully keep quality high but no one is interested in this anymore.

There was an article I read in the past few months about the problems with Marlin.

When Remington acquired Marlin they also got the tooling and NO blueprints. The problem was the tooling was old and worn out. The workforce that knew how to build the Marlin stuff didn't make the move.

Now that Remington has switched all the Marlin production to new tooling the problem seems to be solved.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...back-and-its-bad-i-mean-good-i-mean-well-see/

It would be almost like receiving the tooling that Remington Rand used to build 1911 pistols, but the tooling had been in use for 50 years, and NOT receiving any blueprints or dimensional drawings.

JR24 · Sep 23, 2016

Never had a problem with their shotguns that I own/owned. I have stopped using my 700 though, partially due to the safety issues, partially due to the fact that I've been converted to .308 as my favored hunting round.

Warp · Sep 23, 2016

You're a little late to the "Remington is no good" party, but that just means you are far from alone.

Their rimfire/.22lr is garbage as are, seemingly, a lot of their guns

Zaydok Allen · Sep 23, 2016

The only Remington gun I own is a Nylon 66 my grandfather gave me. It shoots straight, but jams a lot.

I have seen a couple of Remingtons with issues, and I've read a lot of really bad stories. And then there's the R51 thing.

Yeah, I've lost confidence in the company and it's going to take a lot to get it back.

Yo Mama · Sep 23, 2016

Tirod said:
By most of the accounts I've read, the latest R51 is working ok. Maybe some links to those who report differently would help as new buyers would like to know.

The 700? Arguable. It's commonly unloaded by racking the rounds thru the chamber, the original triggers were user adjustable, and the public is notoriously adept at reducing the trigger pull to race gun levels while never cleaning or maintaining the trigger group itself. So layers of gun oil congealing onto the operating surfaces is one reason the trigger "fails" and we get ND's. Across the board, most firearms have problems with ammo, mags, and users. I chalk that last one up as the major issue with R700's - tinkering with light trigger pulls and not popping the rounds out of the mag to reduce firing a round off in the chamber.

As for the 870 no company makes a perfect gun every time. Sorry for your experience there - others have made as much of it with other brands. It's a universal problem with firearms manufacturing, if they only ship perfect guns, then the price doubles or triples. All to keep a handful from getting off the dock every year. Sadly, it's cheaper to have a Customer Service Department.

Line up the past five years failures in firearms known on the boards, and every gunmaker should be boycotted for making junk. None have escaped it. What we really are seeing is breaking news on production within weeks of the guns fielding - because Internet. We get feedback much sooner than we used to and in the old days a lot of it was only word of mouth from FFL's and distributors returning a specific model more than normal. If you were in that inside circle you knew about it. Much like when Fram moved a plant to Mexico and their Ford filter became notorious in the industry for losing the end cap and causing motors to seize from no oil pressure. I lost one, nearly lost it's replacement, then found out what was going on months later. Today you would find out about it on the Inet within weeks. You wouldn't need to wait for your FFL or favorite counterman to whisper to you to avoid them like we used to.

If anything the peak of "Don't Buy Remington" passed 18 months back. Their new plant in Alabama is reputedly doing great work. We know because the products there are doing fine and that is the word going around. Now.

Words to the contrary? Link it so we can read it, curious minds like to know. And by the way, I've bought Remington products and am equally disappointed in management's lack of concern about making their production floor their priority, and said so. The Alabama plant seems to be the ticket.

https://youtu.be/fcf1cTJCGk4

Not my video again I don't know anyone, but basic gist is high powered loads did good, the cheap practice stuff not so much.

There are a few reviews on YouTube where people have thrown some rounds through them with higher than acceptable fail rates. The problem is also there's a lot of other reviewers saying that it's fine but they haven't actually shot the guns.

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stchman · Sep 23, 2016

I only own one Remington, a 700 in .223 and it is a tack driver at 100 yards.

I do own an H&R Pardner Pump which is essentially an 870 knock off. It is a HD shotgun so I don't have a lot of rounds through it.

I also own a Marlin Model 60.

All 3 of these firearms are owned and made by the Freedom Group, I have heard of their QC going down a little bit.

I also own a Para 1911, but I do believe that is was made prior to Freedom Group acquisition of them.

hdwhit · Sep 23, 2016

RavenTai wrote:

...company drirected [sic] by MBA types, not really gun people.

You really should reconsider that stereotype. Bad management or an appreciation of firearms isn't connected to the college degree someone has. I've been shooting since I was a child and reloading everything I shoot since I started shooting center-fire at age 17. I run a successful business. I also happen to have an MBA. And I'm not alone.

hdwhit · Sep 23, 2016

Hmm.

Thinking back, I guess I've never owned a Remington gun.

The older of my two sons has a Remington 597 rimfire rifle. It has been trouble free since the day he got it. The magazines for it with the metal box have also been trouble free, while the all-plastic ones will sometimes fail to feed either the first or last round.

I did recently buy my younger son a Marlin XT-22 bolt action rimfire and since they're owned by Remington, I guess that could count. The XT-22 has so far been a solid and reliable rifle. But then that might not be much of a testimony because for a gun maker it would come down to a question of, "If you can't get a rimfire bolt gun to work, what can you do?"

Kookla · Sep 23, 2016

I do own an H&R Pardner Pump which is essentially an 870 knock off. It is a HD shotgun so I don't have a lot of rounds through it.
....

All 3 of these firearms are owned and made by the Freedom Group, I have heard of their QC going down a little bit.

Just a point of clarification- the NEF Pardner Pump is imported and not made by freedom group to my knowledge.

dragon813gt · Sep 23, 2016

Cannibul said:
There was an article I read in the past few months about the problems with Marlin.

The saga is well known and has been for years. Remington had prints. Unfortunately they hadn't been updated w/ the changes made on the line. Since they didn't bring over any of the old employees they proverbially shot themselves in the foot.

It's more in how Remington responded to the issues they had. Sending firearms out w/ canted sights, atrocious wood to metal fit and feeding issues shows they had poor QC. It took them a few years to get it straightened out. And it's still not all worked out. This is six years after they shut down the Marlin plant. I understand that lever actions are more complicated but they have managed to almost kill the brand.

I like Remington so I want to see them do well. Hard to find a family that hunts in this area w/out least one 760/7600 Gamemaster in the family. 870s are everywhere. I will say I've had no issues w/ my R1.....after I throated the barrel. This isn't Remington's fault. I shoot cast and the barrel throat wasn't set up for it.

jmr40 · Sep 23, 2016

reducing the trigger pull to race gun levels while never cleaning or maintaining the trigger group itself. So layers of gun oil congealing onto the operating surfaces is one reason the trigger "fails" and we get ND's. Across the board, most firearms have problems with ammo, mags, and users. I chalk that last one up as the major issue with R700's - tinkering with light trigger pulls and not popping the rounds out of the mag to reduce firing a round off in the chamber.

You're talking about 2 completely different issues. Any gun that has had the trigger improperly adjusted or maintained can fail. This is the smokescreen that Remington lawyers have been using in trials to try to confuse jurors and gun owners for 70 years. They always blame the gun owner.

The problem unique to Remington is that it has been proven beyond any doubt that guns straight off the production line that are perfectly clean and unmodified will fail. Many, many have done so. Their own engineers discovered the problem and urged a re-designed trigger in 1946. It isn't a manufacturing defect, but a design flaw. Even guys who have owned guns 50+ years with no issues could have it discharge the next time it is loaded. Guns that have done it in the past may never do it again. It is just a matter of bad luck with internal trigger parts lining up just right at the wrong time.

Keeping the trigger maintained and clean will prevent the 1st type of discharge, but not the 2nd type.

RA40 · Sep 23, 2016

I'd read with disappointment about the Remington Marlin issues. I picked up a Marlin Model 60 a handful of months back. Seems ok so far. Had an 11-87 back in the mid 90's, no complaints. Other than these two samples, Remington firearms aren't on my list. Only Remington product here is 500 rounds of .22, 6 boxes of .357 and 1 box of 9mm ammo.

Jackal · Sep 23, 2016

Ruger used to put adjustable triggers in their M77 rifles. Due largely to customers unscrewing the sear adjustment to dangerous levels (I was one of them

) Ruger discontinued the adjustable sear. Nothing quite like closing the bolt and having the hammer drop...

DC Plumber · Sep 23, 2016

Oh boy, don't forget the Remington 742 auto loading center fire rifles. Mine still works but I haven't shot it since Clinton was in office.

Replaced it with a Ruger Bolt action.

Black Knight · Sep 23, 2016

It sounds to me you have an 870 Express. I have heard of many that needed the chambers polished. I have an old (1982) Wingmaster that I bought at an estate sale and it has been flawless. As for the 700 I read an article some time ago and a good deal of the problems that I saw was from jack leg "gunsmiths". They know just enough to ruin a good gun but not enough to know when they are over their heads. They will file various parts to make the action smoother and lighter but in doing so make the gun unsafe and then blame the manufacturer. I have no experience with Remington rifles but have run across many of these "gunsmiths" over the years. The only centerfire hunting rifle I have is a Winchester Model 70 Featherweight in 270 with a 3-9 Leupold scope.

bannockburn · Sep 23, 2016

RA40

Only Remington product here is 500 rounds of .22, 6 boxes of .357 and 1 box of 9mm ammo.

I got rid of all my Remington .22 ammo some time back. More often than not I couldn't get it to work in any of my .22s. I was glad to get rid of it. Now all I have is a couple of bulk packages of Remington 9mm. and .45 ACP ammo and some of the 9mm. in 50 round boxes. Haven't owned a Remington firearm in years.

Warp · Sep 23, 2016

bannockburn said:
RA40

I got rid of all my Remington .22 ammo some time back. More often than not I couldn't get it to work in any of my .22s. I was glad to get rid of it. Now all I have is a couple of bulk packages of Remington 9mm. and .45 ACP ammo and some of the 9mm. in 50 round boxes. Haven't owned a Remington firearm in years.

I sold al ~7k of my (crap) Remington .22lr in winter 2013

couldn't be happier about it

Dissapointed and no longer buying Remington

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