Newbie AR15 Purchase Question

Don't get too caught up on what people recommend for tactical training courses. Most of the guys who go to these are weekend warriors, not elite trained soldiers, and more often than not, the rifles which show up in the hands of students have less than 500rnds through them on the first day. The VAST majority of rifles run fine for any course, regardless of brand, and any brand can have failures. I've currently been through over 200hrs of tactical carbine training courses in the last ~15yrs, including a handful of course I've assisted in instruction and/or RSO role - it used to be a ton of Bushmasters and colts in the old days, now a lot more home brews make the scene, and a lot more budget rifles - largely because they're far more readily available than they used to be. I never have seen many Colts on HP or CMP firing lines compared to other makers, have seen a LOT more RRA's and Bushmasters. Probably even seen more Stag's than Colts for that competition - which REQUIRES (or at least used to) military clones. In G3 (glassed Gas Gun) benchrest matches, I've not ever seen a mil-spec colt being used. Sig's have had a good following in a lot of sports in recent years, I've noted, although I've only ever owned one myself, and only serviced a handful. 3Gun matches have ALWAYS been ruled by customs and home-builds, not by Colt carbines, and often single day matches can run a higher round count than any tactical class would over multiple days. More often what fails in matches or in courses are the rifles which aren't appropriately maintained, or especially not properly lubricated. (AR's do NOT need to "run wet," btw).

How pretty the rifle is on the outside and what's engraved on the mag well rarely has any bearing on what rifles shoot the straightest or run the smoothest.

Colts are great rifles, but they're not the only brand which can pull its own weight. Any AR of reputable manufacture - even a parts gun, with documented quality control testing (mil-spec or not), given a proper rattle out period to ensure everything left the factory in proper form, and given proper maintenance & lubrication will run straight, fast, and smooth.

I think you'll be better off building your gun. You'll start be become more knowledgeable about the platform as well as have the ability to build it the way YOU want it instead of buying a factory rifle and spending even more money changing parts and pieces around to the way you want it.

When building your own AR, you can configure it the way you want, but how are you going to know how you want it until you go shoot the rifle?

Specialized rifles are good for what they are specialized for but the tend to be clunky at other tasks. Start with a basic, general purpose rifle, shoot it and let it evolve according to your experience

Colts always have cost more than an equivalent AR that will do the same thing. This certainly isn't going to change anytime soon. I'm not talking about specifications, I'm talking about shooting performance. The Bushmaster is clearly, clearly more suited for your intended purpose. If it's been on the sales rack for a long time, the price is probably negotiable.

NelsErik said:

I want to buy an AR15 for myself for my birthday. Mainly, I just want an AR15, but I also want it to replace my CZ 527 Varmint for predator calling. I initially wanted a Bushmaster Predator, but all my friends suggested the Colt LE6920.

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Get the Bushmaster. Use the savings to buy a good trigger ($200 or so, I'd suggest a Geissele) and some ammunition. The accuracy improvement due to the free floating barrel will be a big benefit for predator calling.

For longer range accuracy with an AR-15, the barrel, the free float hand guard and the trigger are key.

CoRoMo said:

For some unidentifiable reason, the majority of posts in this thread think the OP is looking to buy a fighting rifle. He never said he wanted a patrol carbine for any particular defense role. Had he, I'd also resound the Colt name over the hunting rifle he's found at a discount price.

But he's only mentioned that he wants to use the rifle for predator hunting. Post # 18 was the definitive post IMHO; someone there who knows what they're talking about.

Maybe the tactical operators here thought 'predator hunting' was a new uber operator class that he was going to take.

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My thoughts exactly ... I'll add, that with the Bushmaster you will be set up for what you want now, and if at sometime you decide you want an M4 barrel you can get one from many other suppliers for about $250 or less and share the lower between them.

If you're like many, you've been spoiled by the boring accuracy of the CZ-527. The Colt, while a better built rifle for long term wear and tear, probably won't have that accuracy. So, if you've got the tools or a friend with them, build it, it's not hard with a vise and the right tools. If not, the Bushy Predator is, as many have said, set up for what you want - use the $250 saved as the starter budget for your optic or a camo finish. The scratches will be hidden by a rattle-can spray camo job, Cerakote/Duracoat finish, hydro dip or GunSkin.

CoRoMo said:

For some unidentifiable reason, the majority of posts in this thread think the OP is looking to buy a fighting rifle. He never said he wanted a patrol carbine for any particular defense role. Had he, I'd also resound the Colt name over the hunting rifle he's found at a discount price.

But he's only mentioned that he wants to use the rifle for predator hunting.

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Precisely.

The two rifles mentioned have very little in common aside from being ARs. Comparing a 20" free-floated Bushmaster rifle to a 16" 'fighting' carbine is about as apples & oranges as you can get.

OP - I see you're going for a build, so the point is lkely moot, but for your stated purpose the Bushmaster makes one heck of alot more sense than the Colt, which is not even close to a 'varmit' gun, excepting 2-legged varities.

I have an older 15 + years old Bushmaster A2 20in HBAR Match Rifle that has been very good very accurate and seems to on par quality wise as
any other but I would not buy a new Bushmaster, if the Bushmaster does not have windham stamped on it walk away in my opinion

Time for the Remington bashing folks to pop up but most of them have not purchased a product from the company in years, if ever. I own six Colt AR's and love them, have Colt 1911's also.....but i further have two Bushmaster models that are shooting machines and every bit as good as they ever have been. Two DPMS AR's...a 223 and 308....TheAAC Handi Rifle in the photo in 300 Blackout...two Remington 1911's a RM .380 and finally a gen II Remington R 51. None of these weapons exhibit shoddy maanufacturing and are good reliable shooters with which i have had zero major difficulties, a mag replacement on the R 51 is the only warranty involved.
Back to the OP's original question, the Bushmaster with decent sights and some ammo will come out to the price of the Colt 6920...if i were spending weekends in the desert with fanitical murderers trying to add me to their list....the Colt would be my choice as side by side they (Colt) seem to be made with closer tolerances and better confidence that it will be there iif needed.
In any case buy lots of ammo for the shelf..everyone shood have a minimum of 10,000 rounds in reserve, once it is there simply replace what you shoot as you go along and the supply is maintained.

If you don't want to build your own but still want a rifle for a specific need, go to Palmetto State, buy a clearance "blem" lower ( the never are blemished by the way), and then select the upper that fits your needs. I like an m4 style rifle, so I went with a PSA 16" middy with a chrome-lined FN tube. I put a big scope on it, a better trigger, and it holds.70" 10 round groups at 100 yards. I have 30+ rifles, and none of them shoot like that. Mine is a 1/7" twist, so it likes heavy bullets. My best groups are with 70gr. M262 loads from IMI.

Olympus said:

You're going to get a lot of recommendations for the Colt, but that's mostly because it says "Colt' and that name supposedly has magical powers. Nothing really all that special about the Colt aside from a historic name on the lower. In this market, there are easily a half dozen other brands that are better built than a Colt. My advice is don't get too concerned over the name. I've never bought a factory AR myself, I've always built my own and probably have built 10 or 12 over the years and never had a problem with any of them. Find the gun that fits your budget and fits your style of shooting. Both guns will be good shooters and will be backed by a reputable company if something turns out not to work properly, which I HIGHLY doubt.

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Ok, let's say the OP is looking for a varmint rifle, then the Colt 6920 doesn't fill that role very well because of the way it comes set up but let's not spread misinformation by saying that Colt only gets recommended because the name has magical powers. Colt has been an industry-leader in AR quality because they do NOT cut corners in materials, testing, or quality control. Those all cost money, like magnetic particle inspection or high pressure test, or using 4150 barrel steel, staking the castle nut and gas key screws, etc. I could go on but the AR was a fighting rifle FIRST, and Colt checks all the boxes, so to speak. They've always done this which gives credibility to the Colt name. They're not the BEST ARs but they are building them to a higher standard than most recreational AR brands because they follow the government's Technical Data Package (TDP). That the name is richly intertwined with our nation's history with our fighting men since Vietnam to the present time brings a lot of sentimental value as well but the quality is there in spades.

I'm not saying the 6920 is for everyone, but don't say that there's nothing notable about Colt except the historic name.

I've owned many ARs and currently have everything from home builds to Noveskes, and I do have a Colt 6920 and even though I'm a Colt fanboy, Colt 6920s are not usually my first recommendation to anyone but I had to reply because I hate to see the name basically slandered out of ignorance for the brand or product.

Just a point of clarification Rubber_Duck

The name Colt has been "richly intertwined with our nation's history" for 180 years ... and the AR for over 50 years; since the days of Vietnam.

kimberkid said:

Just a point of clarification Rubber_Duck

The name Colt has been "richly intertwined with our nation's history" for 180 years ... and the AR for over 50 years; since the days of Vietnam.

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I was only referring to the history of the AR as it pertains to this thread.

I would skip the bushy, too much money for a lower end gun. I would also skip the colt for your purposes. My focus would be on finding a varmint type rifle and go from there.

I was essentially in the same spot in 2012. I had a rifle on layaway (mossberg predator) and ended up running into a deal on a stag carbine. I cancelled the layaway and let that rifle go to a friend of mine. Once he got it and I shot it I was kicking myself. If you want a hunting type rifle don't settle for anything else or you just won't be happy. Don't buy one and take a loss on it just to end up buying what you really want now.

Paying $400 extra for gas key and castle nut staking doesn't make much sense to me - and buying a "fighting rifle" for a hunting application doesn't either.

I wouldn't personally, despite all of the bad publicity they've gotten in recent years, consider the bushmaster a lower end gun. Lesser in fit and finish than a colt which costs almost twice as much, sure - but it should be. I have Bushmaster uppers and lowers from 20yrs ago sitting side by side with uppers and lowers purchased last year, and everything in between, and fitting them together, I'm hard pressed to tell the difference. Bushmaster DID piss off a lot of us loyal parts buyers when they converted all of their production over to the ACR and the supply chain dried up, but a guy can't really blame them. They're still making a killing selling AR parts under the DPMS name - and frankly, the same forgings are available at a dozen other manufacturers anyway - but I really do miss their triggers. When it comes to forged uppers and lowers, there's really not much different among 100 different brands, so getting too worked up there isn't really fruitful.

Their barrels, at least in the match grade stuff used in the Varminter, Predator, and NM rifles are as good as I've ever seen them. I've not been quite sure why all of the Bushmaster hate in recent years, other than they've effectively stagnated while a lot of new brands have taken their limelight, AND other than they dried up a parts supply stream which used to be very valuable for a lot of us (I built AR's with over a hundred Bushmaster 2 stage NM triggers - can't hardly find them at all any more!).

Colt, Stag, Bushmaster, Remington, DPMS, Aero, BCM, DD, Wilson, Windham, Ruger, Sig, etc etc - vast majority all deal from the same parts bin anyway, and vast majority will all have the same certifications applied. Flip a coin, worry most about the trigger and the barrel, the rest is really just window treatment.

Well said.

cdb1 said:

My understanding is quality issues didn't start until Bushmaster production was taken over by Remington. I've been told by supposed industry insiders that a lesson was learned so when Freedom Group purchased DPMS, DPMS was allowed to operate independently and quality didn't suffer.

I don't care or know for sure whether it was Remington or Freedom Group, ultimately final reponsibility lies with Freedom since Remington falls under their aegis.

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Not sure I agree with this - from personal experience, I had quality issues with Bushmaster through the years (my first Bushmaster was in 1997, long before Remington/Freedom acquired Bushmaster). Paradoxically, my best Bushmaster was the Patrol model from a few years ago, when Bushmaster came under the Freedom regime. My other Bushmaster has been so upgraded with basic replacement parts, it is only coincidental that it has a Bushmaster logo on the receiver...

My Colt has been superb, no issues over the past - wow its been over 12 years with this rifle already.