In many ways, but CZs have really long trigger reach, and the slide release is more of a stretch.
Glocks feel like 2x4s, but they aren't actually difficult to hold and use. They just don't feel ergonomic. I don't know if that matters.
CZ P10
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Glocks feel like 2x4s, but they aren't actually difficult to hold and use. They just don't feel ergonomic. I don't know if that matters.
DHart
Member
I, too, have far more Glocks than any other brand. And in recent years, acquiring several M&Ps, several P320s, an HK VP40, I've come to view the Glocks, which I engaged with so heavily at one time, as being comparatively unrefined, ill-fitting, and with less-than-hoped for triggers.
Glocks are excellent pistols that do the job well, but they're far from occupying the highest class of polymer striker-fired pistols which are so very well designed to fit and feel great in the hand and offer a softer, more enjoyable shooting experience (this is particularly true when considering pistols chambered in .40S&W; the Glock forties really suck when compared to M&P40, P320 40, VP40, etc.)
These days, my Glocks spend more of their time idle or in the safe. My M&Ps and SIG P320s are seeing most of the range time and carry duty, and I'm enjoying them immensely. I keep the Glocks around because I already have them and they serve a utilitarian purpose. But I always gravitate toward pistols which have the benefit of more thorough and advanced ergonomic design. And today, we've got some real good ones to gravitate toward.
I think a good part of the drop in .40S&W popularity is due to so many agencies and individuals having chosen a Glock platform for their .40S&W caliber hardware. No wonder some people think that .40S&W caliber is undesirable - their only experience with the caliber is likely just with Glocks.
I don't know a thing about CZ .40S&W pistols, but fire a SIG P320 in .40S&W and it will make you want to engage in that caliber even more, not less.
Glocks are excellent pistols that do the job well, but they're far from occupying the highest class of polymer striker-fired pistols which are so very well designed to fit and feel great in the hand and offer a softer, more enjoyable shooting experience (this is particularly true when considering pistols chambered in .40S&W; the Glock forties really suck when compared to M&P40, P320 40, VP40, etc.)
These days, my Glocks spend more of their time idle or in the safe. My M&Ps and SIG P320s are seeing most of the range time and carry duty, and I'm enjoying them immensely. I keep the Glocks around because I already have them and they serve a utilitarian purpose. But I always gravitate toward pistols which have the benefit of more thorough and advanced ergonomic design. And today, we've got some real good ones to gravitate toward.
I think a good part of the drop in .40S&W popularity is due to so many agencies and individuals having chosen a Glock platform for their .40S&W caliber hardware. No wonder some people think that .40S&W caliber is undesirable - their only experience with the caliber is likely just with Glocks.
I don't know a thing about CZ .40S&W pistols, but fire a SIG P320 in .40S&W and it will make you want to engage in that caliber even more, not less.
My first .40 was an old H&K USP I bought used -well used. That was my first experience with .40 S&W and I liked it a lot...
I remember shooting a friends' Glock 22 duty gun sometime after, and I could not believe the difference in recoil. The USP soaked up the snap, made it a very comfortable shooting gun. The 22 wasn't bad, but there was a difference. I think you're right, if they've only tried .40 in a Glock 22 or 27 they might not find it very attractive.
But, .40 is also being dropped because it's fairly well established that improved 9mm JHP ammo us just as effective and is cheaper to buy. I'm sure longevity is a factor, too.
I remember shooting a friends' Glock 22 duty gun sometime after, and I could not believe the difference in recoil. The USP soaked up the snap, made it a very comfortable shooting gun. The 22 wasn't bad, but there was a difference. I think you're right, if they've only tried .40 in a Glock 22 or 27 they might not find it very attractive.
But, .40 is also being dropped because it's fairly well established that improved 9mm JHP ammo us just as effective and is cheaper to buy. I'm sure longevity is a factor, too.
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DHart
Member
Well, I'll agree that 9mm is more effective than it once was, by far. But it certainly is not "just as effective" as .40S&W, nor as .45auto. There are differences between the calibers and the different bullet weights. The larger, heavier calibers still have the advantage in a greater ability to bust through bone barriers (and glass, etc.) and continue in path with little, if any deflection. The lighter weight 9mm rounds are more prone to deflection. And, when they expand, the larger calibers have greater expansion. It is impossible that different calibers, of different bullet weights, would be identical in performance - much as some people would like to believe so.
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If the FBI had adopted USP .40s, longevity wouldn't have been a factor. The Glock 17 is a good 9mm, but that doesn't make it a good .40 platform.
Agreed. The guy I bought my USP from used it in IDPA for several years and still had the original recoil spring and assembly.
DHart
Member
Glock bought their way into many departments and snowed the FBI with Glock 40s. Then, after the Glock 40 experiment had run its course, with relatively poor success, instead of the FBI changing pistols to better .40S&W pistols, Glock snowed them again with financial incentives to stick with Glock and go back to 9mm. Financial motivations (both from Glock for their pistols and a lower cost of Purchasing 9mm ammo) were major motivators in the FBI's move to 9mm. That, and catering to a group of shooters who had difficulty shooting Glock forties.
Glock nines and forty-fives are good pistols, but their reign as top-dog in the polymer world has long since come to an end. Yet, the FBI got sucked back into Glock once again. The G17 and G19 will serve ok for the FBI, all is not lost, but they could have done so very much better for the agents. I would have seen to it that the agents had M&P40s, M&P40Cs, and/or SIG P320s in 40. - retaining the caliber that served them well, but dumping the platform that didn't. Unfortunately, the FBI didn't call and ask for my views on the subject. ;-)
Glock nines and forty-fives are good pistols, but their reign as top-dog in the polymer world has long since come to an end. Yet, the FBI got sucked back into Glock once again. The G17 and G19 will serve ok for the FBI, all is not lost, but they could have done so very much better for the agents. I would have seen to it that the agents had M&P40s, M&P40Cs, and/or SIG P320s in 40. - retaining the caliber that served them well, but dumping the platform that didn't. Unfortunately, the FBI didn't call and ask for my views on the subject. ;-)
The first successful semi-auto pistol with double-action trigger was made by Wiener Waffenfabrik well before advent of the Walther PP. The trigger mechanism was designed by a fellow from Pardubice in what was then the Austro-Hungarian empire.
The "Little Tom". Thank you - I did not know that.
Did a Czech come up with roller locking before the MG34 as well, or did I misunderstand you?
armoredman
Member
BTW, there is exactly one 10mm CZ pistol that I know of in the US, made as an experiment. It works.
Military Arms made some good points. I know of all the handguns I own my glocks are the least ergonomic. However they do grow on you and once you carry and shoot them enough you learn to love them for what they are, a straight up no nonsense business pistol you can depend on. But if you say a glock fits like a glove compared to some other options either 1 of 2 things are true. 1- you are lying because it's your favorite pistol for other reasons or 2- you have a hand made of legos. By the way I carry a g30S and love it
jhb
Member
What manufacturers have learned is that all sorts of people claim they want a 10mm until it comes time to buy said 10mm. 10mm's linger on shelves, mostly due to cost of ownership. The companies that have made them usually stop making them because of poor sales. I love 10mm, but I only have a couple of guns in the caliber. 90% of my handguns are 9mm.
You're one of the few who think a Glock is ergonomic right out of the box. Stop shooting a Glock for a few months and shoot something else. When you go back to the Glock you'll realize the gun is lacking in the ergonomics department. The only people I encounter that claim Glocks are as ergonomic as other guns on the market are the diehard fans. The honest fans will even tell you it's an acquired taste. Few people have picked them up for the first time and said "this fits my hand like a glove!"
I learned how to shoot them and I shoot them well. I own more Glocks that any other handgun type. I carried a G19 for a decade. However, I also know there are other FAR more ergonomic pistols on the market. Pick up a CZ75 and tell me it's not infinitely more comfy than a G17. If you think the G17 fits your hand better, I say you're fibbing.
maybe so. i buy and shoot 10mm. course sigs version and many of the 1911s are quite pricey. so thats gonna limit sales whereas glock version or the eaa witness are more affordable to many shooters. so we have a glock where many dislikes glock, an eaa witness where many dislike eaa and for good reasons, then pricey ones folks cant afford. course there are others but i think you get my point.
on ergos. you assume to much about myself and failed on this one , Sir. in fairness maybe i did the same failure basing folks who dislike glock ergos on what i read from various posters and shooters i know. so ill call us even.
and here's why...i own well over 50+ pistols and only 3 are glocks and they arent my favorites. i shoot all my firearms often. i prefer shooting hi powers of which i have 6. steyrs of which i have 5 and various other pistols and brands. i shoot more platforms than most. course i dont own a gunshop like yourself and access to as many platforms and calibers being a paid youtube channel so i digress as you have much more.... but that wouldnt be my point.
my point would be i disagree on your thoughts on me and glock ergos only being noticed by fan boys. btw my vp9 worked fine in sand and mud.
how about a usp45 tactical test in your gauntlet. that i would enjoy as. own one and id like to see if it can survive your sand packing and mud torture.oh and i own a cz85 combat and a cz75. i prefer the glock 17 and 19 i own to those cause its easier to rack and has more grab area. ergos to me are more than just point and shooting.
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Walt Sherrill
Member
I posted a link to the MAC video in an earlier version of this (reply #40) posted comment...
The first time I went through this message chain, the original link wasn't working on my PC. I saw commenets, but not the video (which I found on another forum.) When I looked again today, I found a working video link. It was probably working properly for all of you. I've removed the redundant link.
The P10 looks to be a great gun and, I suspect, a new branch on the CZ tree. (I predicted a new CZ focus some time back, when I said they'd probably soon come out with a polymer/striker-fired gun -- they did it. After the CZ-100, they needed to do something to make that ugly memory go away.)
I've had a bunch of CZs over the years, still have two, and couple of other CZ pattern guns -- and I like them all. It sounds as though the P10 trigger may be outstanding, and potentially as good a slightly-tuned SA CZ, and maybe with a better reset! That would be pretty darned good.
The first time I went through this message chain, the original link wasn't working on my PC. I saw commenets, but not the video (which I found on another forum.) When I looked again today, I found a working video link. It was probably working properly for all of you. I've removed the redundant link.
The P10 looks to be a great gun and, I suspect, a new branch on the CZ tree. (I predicted a new CZ focus some time back, when I said they'd probably soon come out with a polymer/striker-fired gun -- they did it. After the CZ-100, they needed to do something to make that ugly memory go away.)
I've had a bunch of CZs over the years, still have two, and couple of other CZ pattern guns -- and I like them all. It sounds as though the P10 trigger may be outstanding, and potentially as good a slightly-tuned SA CZ, and maybe with a better reset! That would be pretty darned good.
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Wreck-n-Crew
Member
Sounds like a good enough reason to take a bite out the market. But you forgot to mention the trigger reset!?
By the way I love your channel and watched the P10 video the other day. Keep doing what your doing I appreciate it! Plus appreciate you taking flack and handling it well! I caught a lot of flack for mentioning your HK VP test!
P.S. Welcome to THR!
Wreck-n-Crew
Member
I dont own a 1911, i want to but my short list doesnt have it making a visit to my collection soon. I dont think glocks ( especially full size) are the least bit ergonomic and the worst of the major compared to almost all major pistols on the market today. Ive owen several. Pretty sure im not the only one either. In fact i have heard many glock owners and fans say the M&P has great ergos.
Not sure the argument that its 1911 guys and people that cant adjust are the reason many complain about a glock ergo. Either they feel good or they dont!
Plus why get use to a grip that doesnt fit as you suggest many cant or wont do? What would be the reson to give up comfort and fit? What does the Glock offer to make up for poor ergos that people should want to get use to it?
Aftermarket parts? Maybe! But certainly not reliability! Us older guys know better than that and so do people who own other guns that go bang every time and shoot enough to know!
jhb
Member
lots of opinions on this. they dont feel good to you and people who have your opinion. if glocks were so terrible ergonomically, people wouldnt buy lots of them and shoot decently with them and yet they do. you might not but many many do.
that said the only people who bring up getting used to the glock grip angle are 1911 shooters, which i am one of them, and others who have trained on other platforms first and dont adapt well to many platforms. some do and some dont. it is what it is....
hand a new shooter a glock and they don't complain about grip angles, trigger pulls and glock ergos.
i own and shoot m&p, xd, glocks, steyrs, fns, cz po7, caracal, just about every polymer out there. saying glocks are uncomfortable or hard to shoot well, etc says more about the shooters ability to adapt to platforms and shoot well than the gun and its ergos. you have a different opinion and i respect that, but i stand by my opinions.
how many pistols do you own and shoot? i have currently well over 50 + pistol platforms and shoot many many thousands of rounds a year. it's silly to assume i only own and shoot a glock cause youd be very very wrong.
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The only real ergonomic complaint I have about "some" glock models is the glock knuckle I get after shooting a few hundred rounds. The 19/23/32 seem to callus my knuckle more than any of the others. If glock would just undercut the trigger guard more most of the ergo complaints would cease to exist. I've found the perfect glock for me and that is the 30S which I shoot extremely well and doesn't give me the callus. This Cz will certainly join the other more ergonomic than glock plastic pistol list, but will not kill glock. I can and have adopted to many pistols over the years and glock just doesn't feel as good in hands as almost every other pistol. But will practice and time you learn to love the glock pistol and don't really notice it that much. I love my 30S
papaairbear
Member
jjones45
I'm not recommending you try this as it will void the warranty, but I've heard a Dremel with a 60 grit sanding drum, judiciously applied to the trigger guard undercut, will open the groove to eliminate glock knuckle. I've heard it makes a big difference and makes the ergos much more comfortable. I've heard it tamed the pain of shooting lots of rounds through a G23 and 27 for that shooter.
I'm not recommending you try this as it will void the warranty, but I've heard a Dremel with a 60 grit sanding drum, judiciously applied to the trigger guard undercut, will open the groove to eliminate glock knuckle. I've heard it makes a big difference and makes the ergos much more comfortable. I've heard it tamed the pain of shooting lots of rounds through a G23 and 27 for that shooter.
Wreck-n-Crew
Member
I'm taking that statement to mean, and correct me if wrong, that people would not buy a lot of Glock's if they had bad ergonomics yet they do?
Most people buy what is familiar and popular. IE what they see such as on Police and in video games etc. Glock had the best salesmen at the right time, the best price for LE, and a lightweight and reliable gun that made it popular among Law Enforcement. They are good guns with aftermarket support like no other striker fired semiauto. Beyond that what is so special? What can they do that many cant?
Again why should they? Why should someone buy a gun and try to get use to a grip if there is no real gain by doing so? Plus again I am not a 1911 owner/shooter! so that statement cannot be true as stated! Finally its not the angle that bothers me... the hump on full size does and the fit in the hand on the compacts (19,23, etc) is not as friendly to my hand as other designs. Not a good fit.
Heck just a few years ago all one heard was how reliable they are and no one wants to argue that anymore because the message is finally gotten out they are no more or less than many of the others. Its like the internet and popularity says so it must be so! Not buying that.
What it boils down to is having an open mind. Not being so emotional about our guns that we are blindly defending things that may have value and hold some truth.
Just think about it for a minute! this is a CZ P10 thread and we are discussing another gun and about how good it is and is not! Lets move on...shall we?
P10 :Getting past the distractions of expected forum to and fro, many of us who have different firearms and like different ones (for good reasons of our own) are always looking for the next improvement in an ever evolving gun trade. For me I like A good trigger. I like what M&P did with the back straps and its really become apart of filling the needs of the consumer through easy grip size adjustability. Reset being a important part to some people I like a short one. For me the rhythm of trigger work plays a big part in speed with accuracy. Short resets do that for me. Two big plus's in my book. Anyone whos shot a Semi-auto with a good trigger in SA mode enough (like an Elite match, nice Sig or nice 1911) realizes that the feel is much different in a striker fired pistol.
If I were to design a pistol to my liking it would have an M&P grip, A CZ style slide in frame design for a lowest possible bore axis, a striker fired trigger (losing the hammer) that feels like an SA hammer design, a short reset like a match grade competition trigger that is adjustable with a short take up, no slack, doesn't break too far to the rear like some Sigs, a well placed mag release that is easy to hit with the thumb yet not easy to be accidently hit, A Glock takedown design with a captured spring, an interchangeable caliber capability like a Glock, Fixed novac (yes I know but I like them) night sights, and of course a picatinny rail to start.
I for one care less whether a carry pistol is hammer or striker fired as long as the trigger has a good feel, break, and reset. Since striker fired pistols are more popular among the majority of polymer carry designs, having one great out of the box has more appeal to me. But I would think even more to someone who wants a striker fired pistol but likes the low bore axis of the CZ. That's where I think the P10 comes into play. I would love to be able to try one out. Cant wait....staying tuned!
It's hard not to mention glock in discussion of the Cz p10c since it's obviously going after glock. "Improving on Perfection" is the slogan for this pistol and some believe that's why this Cz looks so bland compared to the others is because the market they are going after, glocks! Glocks don't fit everybody and that's no secret, and Cz is praised for how they feel in the hand so this is a win win situation for the consumer. I love glocks because they work well for me but I will never defend their ergonomics
Yeah, I want a p10c 45acp, but will definitely not hold my breath since CZ show no interest in 45's. The 97 is the only 45 they make. Maybe since they are into this new glock like design they will go ahead and make a 45 version in a year or so. The 97 is big heavy and thick because of the design and since Cz has chose to put the slide on the outside of the frame they should be able to make one a little thinner. other companies have proven that you can make a thin striker fired 45. I can't imagine more people were wanting the 40 over a 45. I don't get the logic on that one
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