Worst advice ever printed
- Thread starter WestKentucky
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A. Because of what I consider to be good practice.
B. Because when I haven't "A'd" I've been surprised.
Your conception of "good practice" may differ from mine and there's no point in setting this up as an argument. In other words, YGPMV.
Terry
A. Because of what I consider to be good practice.
B. Because when I haven't "A'd" I've been surprised.
Your conception of "good practice" may differ from mine and there's no point in setting this up as an argument. In other words, YGPMV.
Terry
You still haven't explained why starting with a 35ksi load in a 50ksi system is improper.
You do it all the time with normal starting loads coming directly from the manuals.
It is in fact not just good practice, it is "Standard Practice."
Look it up in any manual. (I suggest Lyman & the 308Win as a classic, or better yet, the 223Rem which is the parent cartridge case here)
You do it all the time with normal starting loads coming directly from the manuals.
It is in fact not just good practice, it is "Standard Practice."
Look it up in any manual. (I suggest Lyman & the 308Win as a classic, or better yet, the 223Rem which is the parent cartridge case here)
The_Next_Generation
Member
Personally, I "start at max" all the time with reloading. Why would I waste my time starting "10 percent" below what is proven and known to get the most out of a chambering?
If I start 10 percent low and "work up" like so many online claim to do, I would waste tons of powder and bullets only re-veryifying what the load manuals, quick-load, and the forums have to say.
Case in point: my 6.5creedmoor bolt gun. I shoot long range, velocity is king. If max is 42.1gr, I might try 41.7, 41.9, 42.1, and 42.3 just to see where the accuracy node is. It wouldnt be published if it wasn't safe.
Same applied to my AR. Look for an accuracy node "at max" and be done with it.
Ill probably get flamed for this, but its the truth and what plenty of shooters already do. I dont know anybody that takes a 42gr Max listing and starts at 38gr "just to be safe."
If I start 10 percent low and "work up" like so many online claim to do, I would waste tons of powder and bullets only re-veryifying what the load manuals, quick-load, and the forums have to say.
Case in point: my 6.5creedmoor bolt gun. I shoot long range, velocity is king. If max is 42.1gr, I might try 41.7, 41.9, 42.1, and 42.3 just to see where the accuracy node is. It wouldnt be published if it wasn't safe.
Same applied to my AR. Look for an accuracy node "at max" and be done with it.
Ill probably get flamed for this, but its the truth and what plenty of shooters already do. I dont know anybody that takes a 42gr Max listing and starts at 38gr "just to be safe."
Arizona_Mike
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Are you trolling or are you serious?
If the max is 42.1, 42.3 isn't safe.
Arizona_Mike
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It might be safe with his gun, chamber, throat, brass, choice of bullet and primer, crimp, etc. because those things can introduce a lot of variability in both directions. That is precisely the reason to back off a bit from max in the first place, a point he seems to be missing.
The_Next_Generation
Member
The story on that gun I believe is that it was chambered in 257 STW, which is a huge round. When the smith did the barrel work, there wasn't enough meat left around the chamber to be safe which resulted in a kaboom. At least that's the theory anyways. Link to original 2007 thread: http://204ruger.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2469&sid=8a1adbbf3069496b5eedc85dc2a6cb0b&start=15Agree 100%. You don't start at max, and you certainly don't go over it.
I stand by my practices. Double charging a handgun case, shooting with an obstructed barrel, filling a rifle case with handgun powder, sketchy gunsmith work - these are things that cause a "kaboom." Many competitive rifles shooters start at or just below max (for the sake of finding an accuracy node) because it is a waste of time otherwise. Plenty of shooters go safely past max with no issues. As for 42.3gr not being safe when 42.1gr is listed as max - I understand how you may have misunderstood my position. If I shoot the published max (or a load just under - looking for accuracy), and see no pressure signs I continue working up in small increments. This is SOP as far as I've read and heard from others. The gun isn't going to be fine at 42.1, then explode at 42.3. The primer might start to flatten out, or maybe the bolt gets sticky - but there won't be a catastrophic failure.
For these reasons I think starting at max 357mag loads for the 357 AR is just fine. As stated by others, the pressures just aren't enough to be unsafe. I'd bet the AR could handle 35rem loads if they would just fit in the mag.
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I get what you're saying, but if 42.3 was the max, then it wouldn't be 42.1 in the book. 42.1 came from somewhere, and even if it is based on a safety margin, that margin also exists for a reason.
Also, I don't understand why an extra 10fps is going to help you hit a target any better.
The_Next_Generation
Member
I hear what you are saying, and its a good point that I don't have any ammunition against. Perhaps its for semi autos or other weaker designs that aren't a typical bolt gun like what I run (and is why I'm not concerned with exceeding max, especially when I'm not the first one to do it for a particular bullet/powder/rifle combo).
The extra .2gr might tighten the group up a smidgen, the velocity gain isn't the primary reason for a .2gr increase.
Dropping a full grain may also tighten up the group. Why start so close to the max? The best harmonic might be at 41.2, but you aren't going to find it if you are only using the last 1% of the load range.
The_Next_Generation
Member
Because dropping a full grain of powder would be a detriment to velocity. There's always a compromise, and I'd rather have a .4moa group at 2850ft/s than a .2moa group at 2700ft/s.
It looks like 1 grain is about 60 FPS in 6.5 Creedmore. I would have thought a 2% velocity reduction would be worth halving group size. But it's not my sport.
I'll just drop this here: http://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/04/28/how-much-does-muzzle-velocity-matter/
WOW, your totally right, but this may be the first time iv'e seen it in writing. Iv'e actually only seen pressure signs in one firearm ever, and it was a 9nato Beretta m9, running 124fmj at 1250fps. I think the cratered primers were more about the breachface, than high pressure. But yea, hard to think, buying 1lb, and burning through 1/3 working up a load.
shootniron
Member
Whatever happened to personal responsibility...like...know what you are doing before you delve into something.
If some clown comes along and just takes this info on a developmental cartridge and runs with it...his fate is on him.
If some clown comes along and just takes this info on a developmental cartridge and runs with it...his fate is on him.
Wildcatting can be dangerous, proceed at your own risk. No need to keep beating a dead horse...
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