Warfarin approved to help control wild hogs.....your thoughts?

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When the first Eagle dies from consuming "Poisoned Pork" all Hell will come down on Hog hunting. No lead bullets very controlled hunting seasons. These never work according to PETA. "SO" then they become an endangered species. :eek:
This is certainly a concern. Last weekend I trapped and killed a couple of small hogs. I took the hindquarters and dumped the rest for the buzzards and coyotes. A day or so later there was a bald eagle feasting on the remains.
 
Yes, Just look at how lead bullets are being banned in California Condor habitat. Lead shot was banned decades ago for migratory water fowl. If the "Greens" can find one dead Eagle with a lead bullet or rodent poison it will not be good.
 
"I have left cameras in that area and have yet to see one hog eating on a carcass."
Interesting; I had assumed, since you know, hogs eat practically everything, they knew how tasty they are.
 
They bleed out quicker when ventilated than with warfarin. Hogs will eat pork, they do all the time in feed. Toss your excess bacon (an oxymoron if I've even seen one) in the sty and watch it disappear. But gnawing on a body lying there, I suspect a pig would be less likely to do so, unless it were a zombie. (Although I have heard of some late-night (human) body disposals done that way...)
 
I'm mainly a deer hunter. I'll shoot a hog if he comes by but don't go after them or trap them.
Hogs compete with deer for food (acorns, etc.) and areas with no hogs have better deer populations so I would love to see hogs eradicated in my area. Unfortunately, this is where the Spanish explorers landed (DeSoto et al.) and we have had them for ~500 years. I doubt they will be eradicated in my lifetime, if ever.
 
Just read an article ref warfarin /hogs in Texas. It said it has been used in testing for over a decade. Good article. Should clear up a lot of you said ...he said.
 
Will this stuff kill off the vultures? If other animals feed off hogs killed with this poison, what will that do to them?
 
We constantly see statements published as facts about how many millions of dollars of damage hogs do annually to any given area....and I know of no way this can be verified. Do a group of people sit down at a table and debate how many millions they will put in their latest statements. I can see no way any of these statements can be verified, and cannot put any confidence in a governmental agencies that use fabrications as facts.

It's a lot easier than you're assuming.

You see, us farmers and ranchers who make a living from the land have insurance on our production. When an invasive species, inclement weather, wildfire, or teenage joy-rider damages our crops or livestock, we file a claim, and we're effectively paid back on those acres or animals. We till under the remainder, per our insurance policies. All of that insurance info is easily sought out and the state/county extension offices typically put out reports on them each season.

I'm sure some statistician can line out how many claims are not made per how many are, and it's a very simple equation to determine the actual financial damages (insurance pays on APH, not on actual economic potential for a given year), but such doesn't really matter - to the point at hand - cataloging insurance claims by farmers and ranchers is really quite straight forward.
 
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It's a lot easier than you're assuming.

You see, us farmers and ranchers who make a living from the land have insurance on our production. When an invasive species, inclement weather, wildfire, or teenage joy-rider damages our crops or livestock, we file a claim, and we're effectively paid back on those acres or animals. We till under the remainder, per our insurance policies. All of that insurance info is easily sought out and the state/county extension offices typically put out reports on them each season.

I'm sure some statistician can line out how many claims are not made per how many are, and it's a very simple equation to determine the actual financial damages (insurance pays on APH, not on actual economic potential for a given year), but such doesn't really matter - to the point at hand - cataloging insurance claims by farmers and ranchers is really quite straight forward.

The taxpayer pays about two thirds of the crop insurance premium. The insurance adjusters (I know a few) are very creative in finding and generous in paying for crop damage.
 
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The taxpayer pays about two thirds of the crop insurance premium. The insurance adjusters (I know a few) are very creative in finding and generous in paying for crop damage.

Complaining about how the system works doesn't change the facts - the damages are measurable. Whether the payouts reflect the actual damages or not is irrelevant - the stats on national per annum damage total reflect the actual payouts.

I can say, I'm glad MY adjuster gets creative in payouts. As an example, I lost a field in 2013 on a fluke hail and wind storm, corn was sky high. It did some-odd 260bushel/acre the year before and some 280bushel/acre the year after, and a field I have 4miles away which usually lags behind that field was 260's that year. My extension record, which my insurance payout was based on, was mid-170's. So... $7/bu corn, and a misrepresentation of my losses by 80bu an acre (probably would have been 100), my payout would have been short by $560/acre, on a 138acre circle, I'd have lost over $77,000 if the claim paid out as it was supposed to be on the APH.

Just based on those numbers, a guy can see how significant the damages hogs can cause really are. A few piggies knocking out a few acres here and there might not seem so bad, but when thousands and thousands (or millions?) of hogs root under thousands and thousands of acres of crops, real live people can't pay for their kids tuition that year. Many of the areas where hogs run aren't farmed nearly as densely as the real food belt, so I expect there won't ever be a tolerance for sport hunting in those states - to listen to a lot of other Kansas farmers, there's going to be a fenceline of rifles on the border if they start making too much of a showing here which would put Trump's wall to shame.

What I would be interested to see - if you consider non-target poisoning and carcass chain-poisoning, how much faster will the OTHER species back-fill an area compared to the hogs? Effective blanket poisoning is going to wipe out a lot of animals of many species in a given area. That would tell me whether it's really sustainable or not - if the poisons push hogs out for a season or two, but kill off too much of the local species population for two or three seasons, it's not sustainable and not responsible. Kill off the bottom of the food chain and the top will die off too - kill the rats, the cats, coyotes, and birds will suffer, whether they're a direct or subsequent poison kill or not.
 
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Complaining about how the system works doesn't change the facts - the damages are measurable. Whether the payouts reflect the actual damages or not is irrelevant - the stats on national per annum damage total reflect the actual payouts.

I can say, I'm glad MY adjuster gets creative in payouts. As an example, I lost a field in 2013 on a fluke hail and wind storm, corn was sky high. It did some-odd 260bushel/acre the year before and some 280bushel/acre the year after, and a field I have 4miles away which usually lags behind that field was 260's that year. My extension record, which my insurance payout was based on, was mid-170's. So... $7/bu corn, and a misrepresentation of my losses by 80bu an acre (probably would have been 100), my payout would have been short by $560/acre, on a 138acre circle, I'd have lost over $77,000 if the claim paid out as it was supposed to be on the APH.

Just based on those numbers, a guy can see how significant the damages hogs can cause really are. A few piggies knocking out a few acres here and there might not seem so bad, but when thousands and thousands (or millions?) of hogs root under thousands and thousands of acres of crops, real live people can't pay for their kids tuition that year. Many of the areas where hogs run aren't farmed nearly as densely as the real food belt, so I expect there won't ever be a tolerance for sport hunting in those states - to listen to a lot of other Kansas farmers, there's going to be a fenceline of rifles on the border if they start making too much of a showing here which would put Trump's wall to shame.

What I would be interested to see - if you consider non-target poisoning and carcass chain-poisoning, how much faster will the OTHER species back-fill an area compared to the hogs? Effective blanket poisoning is going to wipe out a lot of animals of many species in a given area. That would tell me whether it's really sustainable or not - if the poisons push hogs out for a season or two, but kill off too much of the local species population for two or three seasons, it's not sustainable and not responsible. Kill off the bottom of the food chain and the top will die off too - kill the rats, the cats, coyotes, and birds will suffer, whether they're a direct or subsequent poison kill or not.


I do not fault farmers for using the system that is in place, nor do I deny there is crop damage from hogs and many other factors. Congratulations on your claim.
For most of us insurance is not subsidized by the taxpayer. If a claim is paid it minimizes the loss rather than maximizing the profit.
Living in the heart of corn country I have always been amazed a how hail hits only the very best corn.
 
If a claim is paid it minimizes the loss rather than maximizing the profit.

When I put seed in the ground, pay property tax, pay to own and operate all of my equipment, pay for ag chemicals, pay for water rights (in some cases), pay my farm hands, and then have a field get knocked out, I guess I can't fathom how you see that as maximizing profits instead of minimizing losses. If a field WOULD have yielded 270 and sold at $7 corn, that's potential. It's not just profit. In a year when corn is at $3, and I'm paying $275 per bag (about half a bag per acre to plant it) out of pocket, then won't get paid back when I sell a year from now, it's about stopping my losses.

Consider yourself going to work every week, then not getting paid until the end of the year. Oh, and by the way, lay out a few hundred thousand dollars in investments towards land, equipment, fuel, labor wages, seed, fertilizer, and ag chemicals, so you're not just working for free, you're paying to work.

And then have your boss tell you at the end of the year you're not getting the wage you expected, but since it rained too much back in April last year (and ONE field flooded out), you're gonna be short 25% on your income this year. So as you're trying to sell your year's work to get back to zero, then have something left to count as income to keep the lights on at your house and keep your kids fed, now you're looking at a loss of $260,000.... But you paid insurance all year to make sure you don't get left homeless if one of your 4 fields floods out and takes 25% of your gross with it, so how much of that $260,000 are you still going to lose? But just like the those car insurance commercials where they talk about driving around in 3/4 of a car, if my insurance only wants to pay on my APH at the extension office, which is lagging way behind my actual average, since it includes 2012 when we lost almost all of our acres and a zero doesn't play nice in a rolling average, do I want insurance which pays based on my APH which might be 80-100bu/acre behind my actual average? If we paid out in 2013 on my APH, I'd have still lost $77,000 compared to my actual yields. That's still almost 30% on that field! And all the while, my kids have been eating, my payments on equipment and property tax payments on the land are coming out of my pocket, I'm paying my hired hands, and I'm paying for seed I won't harvest for a year and might not sell for a year after that... So should my crop insurance really only cover me for 70% of my crop? Should your car insurance really only repay you for 70% of your car? Do you really want your insurance to help you only get 70% out of the hole you dug all year?

Tell me again how I'm maximizing profits instead of minimizing my losses?

Living in the heart of corn country I have always been amazed a how hail hits only the very best corn.

Pretty simple there. On my low yielding corn acres - what little dry land corn I put in, if it gets damaged, I'll chop it for silage and still make about the same value as it would have brought at 50-80bu/acre, and if I file a claim on every year dry land corn takes damages, my premium is going to go up a lot. On my best performing fields, the lost grain actually makes a difference, so even if my premium goes up, the insurance is worth paying. Most folks ding their car in some way which they'd like to get fixed, but they ignore because it's not bad enough to off-set the cost of the premium increase if they filed to get it fixed. It's no different with crop insurance - if you total your car, I bet you file it. If you get a door ding in a parking lot, I bet you don't.

Hogs are doing real financial damages, and the numbers we play with are huge. Acres add up REALLY fast into really big dollar amounts, so it's not a joke when folks talk about keeping hogs out of the heartland where our nations food is made.
 
Well, I don't grow corn, but I do hunt/trap hogs. Lately they've been coming in more frequently, nearly every night, and more'n one at a time. My neighbor was out back with a rake and shovel trying to smooth out the rooting the other day. I just disc it, myself. Yeah, when it rains, gets a little muddy back there. LOL I planted a food plot back there, so far so good. I noticed clover coming up today. :D

Hogs were in my back yard last night. They rooted up across the fence pretty bad, had lots of BIG hog tracks on my side, but they left my grass alone. My neighbors either side of me (they're absentee land owners, only here on weekends) are begging me to shoot all I can. They seem to be trap wise, can't trap 'em, so I've got my M4 ready loaded with 62 grain Barnes TSX handloads and a green light on the rail and I'm going to go back there early in the morning and see what I can see. It's cloudy and the moon is on the dark of the moon, so I guess I'll be hunting by sound until I decide to shine my green light on things.

Heck, I need the pork. I didn't get a deer this year and the deer AND the hogs have been absent due to all the acorns they've had to munch on, bumper crop. But, they're back on the corn, hogs and deer, so I guess the acorns are gone, finally.

Yeah, folks around here are mostly small acreage hobby farmers or just absentee land owners. Mostly 10-20 acre places. there are some big land owners around, though, but they're all ranchers, not farmers. The soil and the thick woods around here sorta dictate things. Planting isn't in the cards, but there's lots of cattle. I'm not sure how "crop damage" can be calculated when it's not a direct crop involved, just grass for the cows.

I do know there are some hunting ranches around here that make good money off hog hunting. A hog eradication might benefit corn farmers, but it sure wouldn't benefit those hunting ranches. They make some amazing dollars off hogs.

http://www.wolfpenhunts.com/

This vid is made not far from me. Typical woods and pretty much what most of the western part of the county looks like. Eastern part is rice fields and snow goose hunting is king there.

 
As I understand it, warfarin is distributed throughout an animal's bloodstream, and kills above a certain level through spontaneous hemorage, and hemophilia from injury before that, and is rapidly metabolized all the while. For another animal to be poisoned, it would have to eat enough meat to reach the same concentration as the poisoned animal (i.e. more than its own body mass by a good amount) fast enough or consistently enough to outrun its own metabolism of the compound. Think of it like getting aspirin poisoning by eating a poisoned animal; if the animal was not given much more than a lethal dose (i.e. properly metering the deployment of warfarin) then between its liver & your own, it is rather difficult to eat enough, fast enough, to meet the same fate. Might make you sick, though, especially if it becomes a habit. So maybe some slight risk of bykill initially, when the fatalities are highest for a week or two.

This isn't a persistent compound like DDT that hangs around for a long time, nor something that acts on a specific organ in trace amounts like strychnine or cyanide that can be easily administered at many times above a lethal dose. This is something that will probably kill a pig only after several frequent feedings while poison is actively being administered.

Maybe farmers will simply start leaving out bales of rotten sweet clover for the hogs, since warfarin is a naturally produced toxin of certain fungi.
 
Warfarin has been used as rat poison for an awful long time, and we still have rats. Warfarin hog baits will probably have local success in some instances, but I suspect the wild hog population will not go extinct with its use. It's pretty clear that hunting and trapping will not wipe out the hogs; if use of warfarin has undesired consequences in other wildlife and carrion feeders, I'm sure its use would be reconsidered. Those hunters who are worried about consuming Warfarin in a hog they shoot should be aware that bruises in the hog's muscles would show up if the hog had consumed even a sub-fatal dose. Not eating a hog that has bruised or "speckled" flesh is a wise precaution, even though I suspect it would be difficult to consume enough meat from a hog that consumed Warfarin to cause a problem.

I'm basing this on 11 years experience in hog and beef slaughter houses, inspecting carcasses for the USDA. And I take Warfarin myself as I have increased risk of stroke and pulmonary embolism.
 
I suspect the wild hog population will not go extinct with its use
I don't think anyone is promising that; this is simply a way to effectively manage the populations, to push them out of areas where they are not wanted (i.e. producing land as opposed to game ranches). The same way in which rat poisons or roach poisons are used to push these pests out of a structure where their presence is not desired, but not to eliminate the entire species. Roaches, rats, hogs, and humans are actually quite similar as far as we are all quite adaptable survivors that can live almost anywhere on anything, and can only be pushed around through rather draconian methods. You don't fix a rodent or roach infestation by throwing a shoe across the room whenever you see one ;)

Been more than just 'tested' in Australia, where it was actually used, then subsequently banned.
Do we really want to take that country's advice when it comes to banning anything? Lead rifle bullets were banned by the state of California for hunting; does that mean lead rifle bullets are a danger to allow elsewhere, or does it mean their pandering politicians passed an unwise policy? Lead shotgun pellets were banned in all wetlands because of bird ingestion problems in a specific area with specific geographic traits, even though we know the same risks do not apply elsewhere and never did. Heck, DDT had darn near annihilated many species of disease-carrying mosquitoes and bedbugs, as well as malaria & yellow fever (dengue and others soon to follow) that kill millions annually and stunt entire societies, in the short time it was globally deployed, but "muh Silent Spring" and worries over some fancy buzzards put a stop to what was perhaps one of the greatest advancements in human quality of life since antibiotics.

There needs to be more information about the Aussies' decision to glean anything useful from it; did the Aussie officials raise anything beyond nebulous 'concerns' over warfarin deployment, or were secondary poisoning or general ineffectiveness the cause? The reason I ask, is the A&M group promoting this aren't exactly corporate hacks shilling for 'big warfarin' (I find the suggestion this is some big payout scam rather humorous) but a respected academic group with countless useful findings for society & industry. IIRC, they were a major force behind the 'green revolution' that has allowed us to all become fat amid unending plentiful harvests the world over (though yes, there are some people who see this golden age as a bad thing).
 
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