S35VN now available from Cold Steel. I wasn't expecting that...

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JohnKSa

JohnKSa

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I was poking around the other day and noticed that Cold Steel is now offering some knives with S35VN blades.

I poked around some more and it appears that they are offering a decent variety of decent steels now. I knew that they had added a couple of steels by Carpenter, but I wasn't really expecting them to continue to increase the variety...
 
Yes, their quality of manufacture has also gone up on their high-end knives, although I'm not sure who their OEM is. I still won't buy them, too many other companies that have more consistent quality and less goofy CEOs.
 
Not sure what you mean by that. Most company CEOs are just business guys; at least Cold Steel's head (Lynn Thompson) is a pure knife guy who participates in martial arts and can design some pretty good blades himself.
 
Old Dog said:
Not sure what you mean by that. Most company CEOs are just business guys; at least Cold Steel's head (Lynn Thompson) is a pure knife guy who participates in martial arts and can design some pretty good blades himself.
Click to expand...

Most knife company CEOs are pure knife guys, because most knife companies are privately held, family-run businesses. Benchmade, Spyderco, Buck, Chris Reeve, you name it, most of the decent modern manufacturers are led by knife people.

I don't really have a problem with Lynn's schtick to the same extent that many do, but I don't buy it, either. Just like I don't buy into the Emerson or Strider tactifoolery and fanboyism. Although I will give Ernie and Mick/Duane credit, they make consistently quality knives. Cold Steel doesn't. Cold Steel makes some good knives, some mediocre knives, and some pure garbage.

Most companies have budget lines, but the quality difference between Spyderco's Byrd line or Benchmade's Black Class and their primary and high-end lines is fairly narrow, so I feel confident I can rely on them. The quality of manufacture and fit and finish will still be there, just with less expensive materials. But you know that they will never turn out a product they don't feel is quality. With Cold Steel, you might get a fantastic knife... or you might get a knife made out of the cheapest material possible and finished by a drunken monkey on a 100-grit belt.

Combine that with Lynn's goofy, over-the-top mall ninja personality and marketing, and I'll pass. If he ever tones it down and can improve Cold Steel's overall quality control across the whole brand, not just their high-end, then I'll take a second look.
 
Sigh. It's all marketing. Seems some just take a lot of stuff way too seriously these days.

Stick to discussing a company's actual product quality, fine, but if you start talking about its CEO's personality being a major factor in why you don't care for its products, eh, well. The goal of most businesses is above all to make money. That company fills a few niches (not a lot of other places offer you decent off-the-shelf swords, for example). Got a couple of them Spetsnaz shovels, too ...

And returning to the topic, if CS is using some good steel in some of its production knives, give 'em a chance. Maybe they'll come up with something worthy at a decent price.

Speaking of goofy and over the top, I still like some ol' music by Ted Nugent ...
 
I agree with a lot of what has been said. I don't know, something about CS just rubs me the wrong way. Mostly, I dont like how they dont make anything in house.

However, I decided to give them a try. I had to see what the hype is all about, but not until they stepped up their game from AUS-8. I picked up an American Lawman in XHP. To be honest, I kind of wanted to hate it. But I don't. It is actually quite nice. The pocket clip is though, and the lock is stiff, but these are just part of the character of the knife. It is ergonomic, thin and light, yet rock solid. My only real grip is that is made in Taiwan.

Now I have other Taiwanese knives. That fact alone is fine. I just think that if you call something "American" Lawman, it should be made in America.
 
Old Dog said:
Sigh. It's all marketing. Seems some just take a lot of stuff way too seriously these days.

Stick to discussing a company's actual product quality, fine, but if you start talking about its CEO's personality being a major factor in why you don't care for its products, eh, well...That company fills a few niches (not a lot of other places offer you decent off-the-shelf swords, for example).
Click to expand...

Considering that the US knife scene is filled with people I respect immensely (Sal Glesser, Ethan Becker, Jerry Busse, etc, etc) that a company is headed by an arrogant, pompous jerk who's especially known for profiting off others' designs, frequently without acknowledgement or payment, could reasonably be a factor in whether I consider buying that company's products.

"Battle ready" economical swords can be had from Condor, Hanwei, Himalayan Imports, Ronin, and Windlass, to name just a few. This Dojo Pro Ronin, for example, is a better-balanced sword than CS offerings, at a very reasonable price. (Note that this is one of Ronin's upscale models. They make "starter" swords for beginning martial artists for about $130.). The Hanwei Dark Sentinel sword is a hybrid sword with aspects of both European and Japanese swords. It's a very real, quality sword that you can get, delivered, for about $150.

John
 
Wow, think I'll stay out of the knife sub-forum, as people seem more judgemental and opinionated than even the pistol folks ...

I had no idea Thompson was such a controversial figure (not being a frequenter of the internet blade world). Nor was I aware that he is apparently a well-known plagiarist. My only production knives are Buck, ZT, Kershaw and Spyderco; I don't typically worry about companies such as CS or SOG, though I am acquainted with some of their products. Note: JS, I am somewhat aware of the market for Japanese-style martial swords, I was speaking to the budget repros of other swords (not intended as actual fighting swords) CS seems to put out. Perhaps I need to look about more ...

Thank you guys for straightening me out. Consider me duly chastised.
 
No chastising intended. You gave your opinion, and I gave a reasoned counter, based on both knowledge of CS' product line, and having met the man, and many others in the knife world.

Cold Steel does in fact push the idea that its repros are functional swords, not wall hangers, so whether the sword was a pure (wall) hanger or intended to be used is actually relevant- though since you included the word "decent" in your description of CS' swords, the ability to actually be used instead of merely flourished seemed clear.
 
JShirley said:
and having met the man, and many others in the knife world.
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That's a great point. I was able to go to Blade Show once and met hundreds of knifemakers. Once you meet these guys you see better where we come from as most don't "borrow" others' designs and have over-the-top advertising.
 
Old Dog said:
Thank you guys for straightening me out. Consider me duly chastised.
Click to expand...

The most important benefit, IMO, of being a contributing member to these fora is that you have access to other incredibly informed submissions. Don't get all butt-hurt if your opinion on a particular subject isn't accepted forthwith ... you aren't being chastised; rather accept that someone else has a different view.

What matters to others here is that your opinion is important ... please continue to offer your thoughts.
 
I don't care much for CS as a company and consider their CEO to be a clown. But I will give them some credit for having some good knives. I think their lowest end is the best value and the only area where they outshine the competition. The Pendleton Lite is a great knife for $15 and the Kudu is beyond belief for $5. Literally $5 from Amazon with free shipping! You can't get a toy out of a gumball machine for less money and the Kudu is actually sharp and sturdy. Even manufacturing in Asia I don't understand how they sell it so cheap (and still have a decend knife).
 
Cold Steel's swords are generally heavy, but they are real swords. I own one. Bought it on a whim. Never used it.

Yes, CS has responded to market demands and offering higher end steels now on some models. Many folks have issues with S35VN however. I generally do not for my knife needs.

John Shirley pretty much summarized why knife folks generally aren't regular Cold Steel customers.
 
Cold Steel is not a manufacturer. They have other companies make all their products.

Lynn Thompson reminds me of a ninja Chris Farley.
 
A lot of guys in the knife business seem to be a little goofy to me. The guy that runs cold steel seems goofier than some others. There's something about most Cold Steel Knives that turns me off. Not sure quite what. Might be the marketing. I do have several of the Bushmans though. They're a neat design and I got 3 of them for $40 a few years ago. The sheaths they came with were really awful though.

I'm not a knife guy. I have a few knives because they're handy to have around. Kind of like I have a handful of screwdrivers because they're useful. I don't really care what tools look like as long as they work for what I need them to do.
 
Mikhail Weiss said:
...especially known for profiting off others' designs...

Curious about this. Details?
Click to expand...
This has been Cold Steal's MO since almost the beginning. The CS Tanto is an original design, and many of their folders, but I'd say over half of their fixed blades were designed by others. They sometimes acknowledge that the design was from someone else, but (unlike Spyderco) usually don't pay royalties to the designer.

Here are just a few:
The Cold Steel Finn Bear is a low-cost copy of the Tapio Wirkkala puukko

The Cold Steel Master Hunter (a knife CS has made for many years) is a clone of the Fallkniven F1

The Cold Steel GI Tanto Survival/Tactical is a clone of the Strider BN fixed blade

The Cold Steel Canadian Belt Knife is a clone of the D.H. Russell Canadian Belt Knife

If you look at the archives, you can see in 1988, CS had original designs, but by 1993, offered their own versions of several classic designs (kitchen knives and kiridashi), as well as unlicensed copies of the Randall R1, Fallkniven F1, and Marbles Bird and Trout Knife*. And that's without even cracking open their Special Projects catalog...

*Marbles BnT is available now in 420 from China, but here is a pic of an original, well before CS made unlicensed copies.
 

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Let me preface this post by saying I haven't done any research on this topic and have no real information about the legalities behind knife design royalties.

So I'm trying to get educated on the topic and here are some questions along those lines.

1. Is it uncommon for a knife company to sell items that are very similar in design to those of other knife companies/manufacturers/designers without giving credit/paying royalties? It seems fairly common in the gun market, I didn't know if the knife market was different.

2. You mention the Marbles Bird & Trout knife. Hasn't that design been around for something like a century? What are the laws about how long a knife design must be in existence before it goes into the public domain and no royalties/rights must be paid/purchased?

3. You mention the Cold Steel Master Hunter being a clone of the F1. Would you say that the Benchmade Rant is also a clone of the F1? It seems similar to both the CS Master Hunter and the F1 though neither the CS nor the Rant have the exposed tang of the F1 and both have blades that are longer than the F1. I'm just trying to get a handle on how much similarity is required to establish that one knife is a clone of another.

4. Along the lines of 2 & 3, isn't the puuko a very old design and aren't there many companies making such knives? How does one establish that one puukko design is a clone of another puukko design given the proliferation of, and the general similarity between all puukko designs? What sort of royalties would be due (and to whom) if such a determination could be made? Also, CS calls the Finn Bear a low cost version of their Sisu knife. Is the Sisu also a clone/ripoff design?
 
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John,

Maybe you could help me understand something, while we're at it. Why is it okay for a company like Cold Steel to take a famous design like the Randall, talk about how classic it is, and offer a copy of a knife *still in production* while giving no licensing fees to the designer or his company? How is that okay?

FWIW, there have been many suits in the gun world because of gun makers offering gun too much like a competitor's design. The Glock and Sigma is an easy example. The case was brought in 1994 and resolved in 1997, with S&W paying a financial settlement and making at least one technical change to the Sigma.
 
JS, I'll play devil's advocate here. Didn't the first gen Sigma violate Glock's patents, not their trademarks? What about Colt, who bought JMB's patents on the design and still produces 1911/Government Model pistols, of which they were the original mass producer. Numerous other companies also make / have made 1911 clones while the original manufacturer was/is still producing them. The patents have expired, so should no one but Colt be allowed to make 1911 pattern pistols? What about AR-15 pattern rifles? Is Glock morally/ethically obligated to acknowledge that their pistols use John Browning's (patent long) expired tilt breech locking system? Are all knife companies morally / ethically obligated to call their frame locks "Reeve Integral Locks", and their Liner Locks "Michael Walker Liner Locks" (both locks were never patented) even when the rest of the design is original?
 
Why is it okay for a company like Cold Steel to take a famous design like the Randall, talk about how classic it is, and offer a copy of a knife *still in production* while giving no licensing fees to the designer or his company? How is that okay?
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Who said it's ok?

I know how things work in the gun market, that's my frame of reference. I'm asking you about how the knife world works.
FWIW, there have been many suits in the gun world because of gun makers offering gun too much like a competitor's design.
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I'm aware of a very few examples like you state, but also of many more situations where guns were copied/cloned and no recourse was sought. The Ruger LCP/Kel-Tec P3AT is one example as is the SIGP238/Colt Mustang, the South African Beretta clones, and, of course, there are any number of clones of older designs which have presumably passed into the public domain. In fact, a huge part of the gun industry consists of making clones. AK-47s, AR-15s, 1911s, CZ-75s and derivatives, various SIG pistols, etc.

It clearly seems like there's a divergence in how the gun industry works and the knife industry works and that's why I asked the questions I did.
 
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Patents expire. There are patents on new firearms, and once those patents expire, other companies can copy those firearm designs without legal retribution. The patents on 1911s and AR-15s expired long ago.

Most knives aren't covered by patents. Those legal protections are a little harder to enforce, but unlike patents, don't expire.
 
Those legal protections are a little harder to enforce, but unlike patents, don't expire.
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See, that's what I'm talking about. I know absolutely nothing about those legal protections or how they work.

  • What are the protections called?
  • Are they something like copyrights?
  • How does one file for such protections and do the protections extend outside of the country where the protections are filed?
  • Can the rights be passed down to heirs or sold?
  • If a company were to start manufacturing a knife that is similar to an existing design that is very old (e.g. the Marbles BnT design), how would the company go about finding who owns the "rights" to that design?
 
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