AR-15 Long Range Questions

If your set on the AR-15 platform, a 6.5 Grendel would be much better suited for 1000 yards.
If your set on 223 you need heavy bullets and a fast twist to reach 1000. With the longer bullets you may not have enough powder capacity with OAL to fit in mags.

My Dad was a Cabinet Maker/Carpenter. When I was a kid he drilled into me the old axiom; "The right tool for the job".

One CAN make a hit at 1K with a .223 in an AR, but there are FAR more efficient tools for that job.

I shoot LR rifle at steel, each Wednesday, from 675 to 1260 yds. Unfortunately in one of the windier Ranges in Montana. Yesterday was winds at 18-20 with occasional gusts to 25 mph. A .223 even with 90 gr bullets is severely handicapped in that environment. IF You shoot in a relatively CALM environment, You may have yourself a fun project with a .223 for LR.

Before you get too far with this, I'd suggest getting acquainted with LR shooting either by visiting a match or from one of the many LR/Sniper forums on the web.

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/ This forum has a link in the upper left to "AccShooters Site" go there for all sorts of info.
Another good one is Snipers Hide, more tactical type shoots, but still solid LR information.

Hope this helps.

I agree with the 6.5 grendel for 1000yds out of an ar15... If your dead set on a .223, you need a 26+ inch barrel to gain enough velocity to keep you supersonic...

1,000yrds with AR is typically a fools' errand, even with non-223 cartridges. The small cases which fit in the AR platform just don't have the horsepower to really be effective for long range shooting. I would advise against spending the money to build an AR for this purpose. Maybe look into an AR-10/LR-308 platform in 243, 7-08, 6.5creed, 260, 308... You will learn much faster running a better suited cartridge. Frankly, if you want to learn how to shoot at 1,000, you'll be much better served to buy a lower cost bolt action rifle for $350-400 in something like 243/7-08/260/6.5creed instead of any AR-15 or AR-10. Military "snipers" don't typically use AR-15's for their primary rifle - SDM's and the like do, but these are NOT meant for 1,000yrd "sniping." There is a reason for this - the platform isn't up to the task compared to other options.

For 1,000yrd shooting with a 223/5.56 AR, I would recommend a 24" barrel with a 1:7" twist, shooting the 77grain Sierra Matchking or 73grn Hornady ELD-M. I would NOT use less than a 20" barrel. The velocity advantage of the 24" barrel will reveal itself past 800yrds, where an 18" or even 20" might go transsonic, while a 24" will carry just enough to cross 1,000yrds while still over the barrier.

Unlike most others, I won't say there's a lot of difference between the Grendel (or others like it) and the .223/5.56 for 1,000yrd target shooting. The Grendel's trajectory is only marginally better than the 5.56. The 6.5 Grendel just can't capitalize upon heavier 6.5mm bullets to achieve great aerodynamics, so it really doesn't run away from the 5.56 as much as most people will have you believe. The Grendel DOES hit a lot harder at range than the 5.56, since the bullet is much heavier, but it's really not hugely flatter shooting or any better in the wind. For my Grendel, I get 0.8mil MORE drop than with 5.56, and only 1/2mil less wind drift at 1,000 than I do with a 5.56 shooting 73/75/77 grn bullets (10mph wind). Run the numbers yourself - a guy can push 75's up around 2900fps with the 5.56, with BC's .375-400, whereas the Grendel pushes a 123grn pill around 2500fps with a BC around 0.500... It just doesn't make much difference for trajectory.

A side charger will have less aptitude for precision than a conventional AR. I have yet to see a side charging upper design which didn't have a disadvantage for precision. It's tacticool, but not precise.

Most all Adjustable Gas Blocks will let you completely shut off the gas - however it will not improve accuracy significantly. It WILL, alternatively, make the bolt difficult to open , since you don't have any camming extraction leverage advantage with the AR. The AGB is a valuable option, but it is not critical to improving accuracy.

$700 doesn't build a side charging AR with an AGB which is really capable of 1,000yrd shooting. A proper match barrel will cost $250-450 just for the barrel. Side charging uppers and carriers cost considerably more than conventional uppers and BCG's - trading $150 in parts typically for $350+ For the upper and BCG. It's pretty hard to build just a side charging UPPER capable of 1,000 yard precision for $700, before you even talk about the lower. $250 for the barrel, $150 for the handguard, $75 for the AGB, $300 for the upper and bcg, $30+ for muzzle brake and gas tube - that's already over $800 and only counts on a reciprocating side charger, and as CHEAP as things can get. Getting it done properly for around $1000 before optics is probably more realistic, and still doesn't leave you with a great stock or trigger.

$50-150 barrels need not apply. Make a target large enough, any rifle can hit it, but hitting a 60" target at 1,000 with a mil-spec chrome lined barrel isn't really much to talk about.

For starters, Google "1000 yard rifle" - http://lmgtfy.com/?q=1000+yard+rifle

On a perfectly calm day you might be able to walk one onto a gong occasionally, but what's the point? You're looking at 22lr ballistics at that range. Even .308 is a bit anemic for 1k yards. Don't get me wrong, it makes a great youtube stunt, but there's just nothing practical that can come of it. Also keep in mind that you're looking at about 400 inches below POA.

Another thing to think about is if you even have access to a 1k yard range. Have you checked to see if there's one in your area?

Given the cost of long range .223, you might as well get a .308. Or get something better than that even and just reload. You really going to have to reload anyways unless you're independently wealthy, so you might as well go all out. Build yourself an AR10 and get a nice modern caliber for it. Be sure and check out Ritch Precision for your barrel. He resells black hole weaponry barrels and at a substantial discount over the retail price. They're all custom made and by far the cheapest custom barrel you're going to find.

save your money and get a good bolt gun in 308 or 6.5 creedmore. I don't have anywhere to shoot past 600 but I can tell you a 223 at 600 is already out of its comfort zone.

someguy2800 said:

save your money and get a good bolt gun in 308 or 6.5 creedmore. I don't have anywhere to shoot past 600 but I can tell you a 223 at 600 is already out of its comfort zone.

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I certainly agree on the 6.5 Creedmore, but there are FAR better choices than the .308 win for 1K. #1 I'd forget an AR platform and go with a bolt gun.

I built a 6.5 x 47 Lapua and a buddy did a 6.5x.284 Win. He and I had previously shot .308's. With quick twist barrels and 130-142 gr Match slugs, they made accurate hits at long range SO MUCH easier. Why handicap yourself?

Years ago I built a small block Chevy engine for a Corvette. The comment my engine builder made on horsepower , relates to accuracy as well. The sky is the limit...How much can You afford? LOL.

Your going to be building a gun thats terrible at everything. To get decent velocity to get some range out of it means about a 24" barrel which will make it a terrible defensive gun due to the length and balance, and the caliber, budget, and mil spec trigger will make it a terrible long distance shooter. Plus you will have a big 30mm tube scope on it to be able to dial in enough elevation to shoot to 1000, so you will need to take that off every time you get home to use it as a defensive gun. Basically what you are asking for is you want a sports car but need it to be able to tow your 5th wheel camper too. You just can't really have both things in the same gun.

I honestly do not believe you can use "budget" and "long range" in the same sentence.
Capable at 1000? Sure.
Accurate? Not going to be budget.

jmar said:

Here's some more clarification. The reason for selecting the AR platform is mainly for the self defense benefits as well as a gun to learn long range on, the reason I want .223 is the low ammo cost. I'm not going to be competing or hunting so absolute accuracy and stopping power doesn't matter to me. I just wan't something cheap to build and shoot that I can use for self defense until I buy a better precision rifle which will be a boltgun in .308, .243, or .300 Win Mag. I'm not always going to be shooting at 1000 yards, mostly at 500-700 however it does need to be able to reach 1000. I just need help selecting parts for it since builds like this aren't done commonly and i'm new to AR's.

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The closest thing that's going to get you what you want is a RECCE build. I highly doubt it's going to get you anywhere near 1k yards, but it would get you out to 600 or so. You could push the barrel to 18'', but that's not going to get you much range and be pretty detrimental to using it for home defense. But 700 is a pretty tight budget for that kind of build. Be sure and put the money into the barrel (I can't recommend Ritch Precision enough) and trigger. Everything else is pretty much irrelevant. The upper, lower, and handguard can be pretty much anything. I would do Aero blem or Anderson receivers and a Model 1 Sales handguard. The bolt matters to an extent. Ritch may be able to get you a matched bolt from BHW. I would spring for a Young's Manufacturing NM BCG. In general though, any good bolt should do just fine. For the rest of the parts, just try to find them on sale.

And also know you have to be prepared to spend quite a bit on glass. Scopes and home defense rifles don't play together very well. If you really want to go down this road then a 1-6 is going to be what you're looking at. It's not ideal for home defense, but will work. Equally, it's not really enough scope to be a good for 600 yards, and pretty much useless at a thousand. Make sure you have a true appreciation for how far that really is. Mark off 600 and 1k yards on Google earth and see how it looks through a scope (assuming you have one). The most powerful scope I have is a 10x Mk4 Leupold on my Mk14 build, and at 1k yards a target isn't much wider than the width of the crosshairs.

ETA: Probably should have asked this earlier, but does that 700 include tools, or do you already have tools/have access to a friend's? If not, once tools are factored in, 700 is not going to get you a precision build. I think in general you should give everyone more information about your plans, especially in terms of the optic and mount, mainly how much money you're setting aside for them. We might be able to shuffle some stuff around and squeeze more out of it depending on what those details are.

Long-range, accuracy, low-cost.

You can pick 2 out of 3 but not all 3.

BTDT, The guys are right.
I have a LR .223 AR. 28" barrel 6.5 twist as recommended by Sierra for 90 gr MK.
Paper ballistics show it at or near 175 gr .308 performance to 1000. That does not happen on the range with real bullets, real targets, and real wind.
It is, however, a very nice 600 yard rifle. I would have been better off with Eric Stecker's approach with 7 twis for 75-80 gr bullets and higher velocity for such midrange shooting.

Otherwise:
Self defense? Come on, it weighs nearly 15 lbs with scope and bipod.
Cheap ammo? Not in my $400 Krieger barrel, I'm not. Every round is carefully handloaded and shot at a target.

Recommendation to the OP:
ARs are cheap and getting cheaper, a defensive carbine is not expensive. A pump shotgun is even cheaper.
A bolt action "varmint rifle" in 6mm or larger caliber will get you into target shooting with less fuss and better results.

jmar said:

I'm building a long range rifle '1000 yards', and the platform I decided on is the AR-15. This will my first AR and I have a few questions on how to set it up right. I want my budget to stick around $700 not including the scope.

So here's my questions, the caliber i'm going with is .223, so what barrel length and twist would give me the best range out of the .223?

I heard about adjustable gas blocks, is there any you can close completely making the gun bolt action? I think pairing that with a side charger would give me a very consistent gun. Or is it even needed for long range?

I imagine the upper and bolt have a lot to do with accuracy, however does the lower matter at all?

That's pretty much all I'm wondering, any other tips on making a sniper style AR are welcome, I know almost nothing about them.

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I'm building a Drag Race Car, and the platform I've chosen is the VW Beetle. See the similarity?

entropy said:

I'm building a Drag Race Car, and the platform I've chosen is the VW Beetle.

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May not be a good example as there are sub 9 sec VWs - 8.2 sec 1/4 mile @ 159 MPH

entropy said:

I'm building a Drag Race Car, and the platform I've chosen is the VW Beetle. See the similarity?

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No, cuz with a lil welding I can fit a 24 valve 5.9 cummins under the hood and still get great mileage, tow my horse trailer, and bring home track winnings, I'll just haveta get a heavier tranny and differential and beef up the suspension and......ooooohhhhh I see what you did there
There's an ar-15 I'd consider for an amusing 1000 yd plinker (not match accuracy cuz I got other things to do with my time). It's higher than the $700 budget, not really much for factory ammo, expensive to shoot too, and DEFINITELY not something I'd recommend for a novice. As for home defense, well.....it'd get the job done I reckon, but not my first choice! Now that everyone who hasn't guessed where this is headed is on the edge of their seat in anticipation.... go buy the .300 Olympic ossm! After a few boxes downrange, you can check out a self defense weapon you'll enjoy AND a precision long range weapon as well!

Buy a cheap AR...one can find them now well under $500.

Save Your money and build a real LR rifle.

jmar said:

I think having a rifle only 8" longer is being emphasized to much. I would remove the scope and bipod after I get done at the range and put a cheap red dot or something on when its at my house. The odds I will ever need it are so minimal that purposely going with a shorter barrel or stressing about a few extra pounds is silly. The gun's main purpose is to be a cheapish learning gun that I can practice all sorts of techniques with, I chose the .223 round so I don't develop a flinch and I have a long barrel life with cheap ammo. It's understood that this is not going to excel at anything in particular, but I can't afford multiple guns at this point in time. Can we please keep this on topic which is building a long range AR-15. Not a home defense gun.

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Dude, you're the one who brought up self defense. These folks have taken time out of their day to try and keep you from getting too far ahead of yourself. You said yourself you know next to nothing about it, and some of these folks here know a great deal. Some of your questions are simply very difficult to answer at this point.

jmar said:

I'm building a long range rifle '1000 yards', and the platform I decided on is the AR-15. This will my first AR and I have a few questions on how to set it up right. I want my budget to stick around $700 not including the scope.

So here's my questions, the caliber i'm going with is .223, so what barrel length and twist would give me the best range out of the .223?

I heard about adjustable gas blocks, is there any you can close completely making the gun bolt action? I think pairing that with a side charger would give me a very consistent gun. Or is it even needed for long range?

I imagine the upper and bolt have a lot to do with accuracy, however does the lower matter at all?

That's pretty much all I'm wondering, any other tips on making a sniper style AR are welcome, I know almost nothing about them.

Click to expand...

Obviously the longer the barrel the greater the range. The heavier the bullet the tighter the twist rate to stabilize it. Problem number one is that long heavy barrels don't do well for self defense, unless you're defending yourself from stationary targets at long range. Good luck explaining that to a jury!

In general, you're going to want heavy bullets for long range, as they are more resistant to wind due to their greater ballistic coefficient. But when you go heavy you lose a lot of velocity. Which means more drop, which means more elevation, which means more cant in your scope base. This is something you'll want to plan out very carefully. You don't want to get everything set up and then find out you don't have enough elevation adjustment in your scope to even get on target. I would play with a ballistic calculator a lot before doing anything further, and play with different loads, barrel lengths, and scope setups. You can get pretty accurate load info from online tables.

Cutting the gas will not make a bolt action. You still have the gas tube and gas block messing with the harmonics, the AR bolt isn't balanced (it flexes to one side due to the extractor), there's still a gas port drilled in the barrel, and the gas block still squeezes the barrel. The AR flange is also nowhere near as rigid as a bolt action. Furthermore, nothing moves until long after the bullet leaves the barrel, meaning turning off the gas will have no effect on accuracy.

The upper receiver does matter. A more rigid (thicker) upper will flex less and should therefore offer greater accuracy. It's also important that the barrel fit tightly in the flange, and that the flange be square on the face. But such billet uppers are in the 200 dollar range and would totally blow your budget unless you cheap out on the barrel, which would be counter productive to say the very least. Go with a regular milspec forged upper, Anderson or Aero blem. Side chargers can be nice for certain applications, but again, it will totally blow your budget and put you over a thousand.

Making the lower fit tightly to the upper can't hurt. I myself think it must make some difference, but others disagree. From what I hear, the shooters at Camp Perry think it matters. This is easy though, and there are a million products to tighten any lower to any upper. Wouldn't worry about it. Other than that the lower doesn't matter at all. Anderson etc. lowers for 60 a pop are just fine. Same with LPK. All that matters is the trigger. I would be looking for a RRA two stage, which I've seen on sale for around 75 dollars before.

The Young Manufacturing "National Match" carrier is nice, but it does nothing to improve accuracy. I talked to some competitors who have tried it and said it does nothing a standard carrier won't do and costs more. They also said that taking the slack out between the upper and lower does nothing for accuracy.

Billet receivers are heavier because they need the extra material to be as stiff as a forged receiver. They also cost more. Two forged upper receivers made to be stiffer and more precise than standard forged uppers are the VLTOR MUR and the BCM. Both receivers are very close in weight to that of a standard upper.

jmar, shooting a 5.56 AR out to 1000 yards is doable, but a very specialized discipline. There are better ways to go about it. The practical range for a 5.56 falls somewhere between 600 and 800 yards. You can do this with an AR equipped with a 16 to 20 inch barrel shooting the right kind of ammo.

I think you'll be happier in the long run with an AR equipped with a 16 inch barrel. It's just about the most versatile configuration. But if you're serious about stretching it out to 600, go with a 20 inch rifle with an HBar profile barrel. Either way, get yourself a 1-4 or 1-6 power variable.

However, don't let anyone talk you out of doing what you really want. Experience is the best teacher of all, giving the hardest lessons

"Can we please keep this on topic which is building a long range AR-15" I think this is simply a case of not liking the facts given to you. You want a 1000 yd AR-15 in .223....and well, that isn't going to happen in the real world, and espeically isn't going to happen with a budget built of whatever parts you decide to throw together with your $700. You can get into long range shooting fairly inexpensively, but an ar-15 in .223 isn't the platform anyone who knows what they are talking about would recommend for that purpose. You were hoping to hear "I'd suggest this this and this" and instead got wise advice about picking the wrong tool for the task at hand. Sure, I can use a hammer to open a can of soup, but its not going to be remotely the most efficient tool for the job, and the approach is kind of crude......

Have you shot out to 1k?

18" barrel and free float hand guard with a good trigger and good stock. 1-7 223 wild chamber

Put the glass on it and have backup irons or a dot

Start shooting, challenge yourself to 8" gongs at 600yds. When that is easy, shoot farther or at smaller targets

When you realize the limitations of your 223, start gathering parts for a second upper in 6.5 Grendel

Blow your budget on a scope, you cannot hit what you cannot see

z7, have you shot a Grendel out to 1000 yards?