6.5cm GSR

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swampcrawler

swampcrawler

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So I'm sure most of you are aware that Ruger has introduced their Scout Rifle chambered for 6.5 Creedmoor. What are the thoughts here on the compatibility of that cartridge and platform?

I would think that the CM, having a shorter barrel life than 308, would be less than perfect for a rifle which in theory could be fired for fairly sustained strings during practice or a class of some sort. I know my American Predator barrel is screaching hot after 5 rounds, so I would imagine sustained fire would be bad news for the already reduced barrel life?

Then again, I'm working off of the 2k or so rounds that I'm seeing quoted for the creed. I assume that these are competitive shooters who rebarrel at the first hint of accuracy reduction. On the other hand, for a Scout rifle, 2moa is quite good enough, so it would probably take more rounds to get to that point?

I adore the Creedmoor, and many other cartridges such as 243, 7-08, 257 Roberts, 7x57, 6.5x55, etc. Not for any long range advantage, but for sufficient power and mild recoil.
 
Maybe the CM is popular enough not to be considered a boutique cartridge anymore.
The Col. made several Scout configuration rifles in larger cartridges than .308, but nothing smaller, AFAIK.
 
swampcrawler said:
I would think that the CM, having a shorter barrel life than 308, would be less than perfect for a rifle which in theory could be fired for fairly sustained strings during practice or a class of some sort. I know my American Predator barrel is screaching hot after 5 rounds, so I would imagine sustained fire would be bad news for the already reduced barrel life?
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I think you're right.
 
Who cares what Cooper did. He wasn't right about a lot of stuff and his ideas about the perfect "scout" rifle evolved over the years while he was alive. If he were still alive I'm certain he would still be tweaking the concept. Personally I like the scout rifle concept, but believe in modifying the rifle to suit my personal tastes and needs rather than trying to follow someone else's concept of the perfect rifle. Cooper wanted a rifle capable of killing a 200 kg animal, that is about 440 lbs. The 6.5 Creed has taken elephant and the 6.5X55 is commonly used on elk. I think it meets his criteria on power.

The Col. made several Scout configuration rifles in larger cartridges than .308, but nothing smaller, AFAIK.
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He felt 308 or 7-08 were ideal. 7-08 primarily in countries where military cartridges were banned. But he also recommended 243 for recoil sensitive shooters and larger calibers in areas where predators larger than the 200 kg weight lived.

I like the Creedmore a lot. But at least at this point would pick 308, or even a 223 for the scout concept over the 6.5. Primarily because of easy access to ammo. But the Creedmoor is certainly popular enough to be considered.

The target shooters are claiming 2500-3000 rounds for a Creedmoor barrel and 5000 or so for the 308. I can believe the Creedmoor will shoot out a barrel faster, but have a hard time wrapping my head around there being that much difference. Maybe so, but I don't think I'd let that influence my decision. For the scout rifles intended purposes I'm thinking double that many rounds before you'd notice any problem in either chambering.
 
jmr40 said:
Who cares what Cooper did. He wasn't right about a lot of stuff and his ideas about the perfect "scout" rifle evolved over the years while he was alive. If he were still alive I'm certain he would still be tweaking the concept. Personally I like the scout rifle concept, but believe in modifying the rifle to suit my personal tastes and needs rather than trying to follow someone else's concept of the perfect rifle. Cooper wanted a rifle capable of killing a 200 kg animal, that is about 440 lbs. The 6.5 Creed has taken elephant and the 6.5X55 is commonly used on elk. I think it meets his criteria on power.

He felt 308 or 7-08 were ideal. 7-08 primarily in countries where military cartridges were banned. But he also recommended 243 for recoil sensitive shooters and larger calibers in areas where predators larger than the 200 kg weight lived.

I like the Creedmore a lot. But at least at this point would pick 308, or even a 223 for the scout concept over the 6.5. Primarily because of easy access to ammo. But the Creedmoor is certainly popular enough to be considered.

The target shooters are claiming 2500-3000 rounds for a Creedmoor barrel and 5000 or so for the 308. I can believe the Creedmoor will shoot out a barrel faster, but have a hard time wrapping my head around there being that much difference. Maybe so, but I don't think I'd let that influence my decision. For the scout rifles intended purposes I'm thinking double that many rounds before you'd notice any problem in either chambering.
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I've also long been baffled about all the online hair splitting about what us and isn't a scout rifle. Isn't the spirit of the concept one of a short, fast handling multi purpose rifle that's made to be carried long distances and fired from field positions? I don't see how a rifle being an inch too long and a few ounces to heavy really changes anything.

As for the 6.5 creedmoor in a short barrel, it seems like it would be giving up. Wasn't it designed for long range shooting out of long barrels? Not that it wouldn't work for most applications, but it couldn't really shine out of 16" to 18" barrel.

What I'd like to see are more scout offerings in medium and large bore rounds.
 
Jason_W said:
I've also long been baffled about all the online hair splitting about what us and isn't a scout rifle. Isn't the spirit of the concept one of a short, fast handling multi purpose rifle that's made to be carried long distances and fired from field positions? I don't see how a rifle being an inch too long and a few ounces to heavy really changes anything.

As for the 6.5 creedmoor in a short barrel, it seems like it would be giving up. Wasn't it designed for long range shooting out of long barrels? Not that it wouldn't work for most applications, but it couldn't really shine out of 16" to 18" barrel.

What I'd like to see are more scout offerings in medium and large bore rounds.
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They're also offering the GSR in 450 Bushmaster. :)
 
swampcrawler said:
They're also offering the GSR in 450 Bushmaster. :)
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That is a neat addition. I personally can't justify it as I don't hunt anything big enough to make use of it and it would be an expensive way to poke holes in paper.

Now, if I had too much money, I could potentially convince myself to have one made in this http://www.45raptor.com/45RAPTOR/performance/

At the end of the day, however, if I need a short barreled rifle in a heavy hitting round, I think I'll go with one of the CZs in 9.3x62. I've always wanted something in that round for no practical reason at all.
 
Why does the 6.5 Creedmoor have a shorter barrel life than a .308? It's not pushing bullets any faster. Does it operate at higher pressure?
 
.308 Win and 6.5CM loads use similar amounts of powder and therefore generate similar volumes of gas which are trying to exit the case mouth. The smaller diameter of the 6.5CM case mouth might increase the nozzle effect (higher gas velocity) which in combination with the reduced surface area in the throat might result in a higher rate of throat erosion. The surface area in a .308 cal barrel is about 36% greater than the surface area in a .264 cal barrel of the same length. Combine that with a more intense and directed flame front due to the smaller nozzle and perhaps that accounts for a 50% reduction in barrel life.
 
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Personally, I would like a longer barrel like the 22" on the predator model to get more muzzle velocity. Aren't long eye relief scopes generally lower power? For a 6.5 CM I would be trying to squeeze all the velocity and have good magnification to get the most out of the round for distance. If I was to get a scout type rifle, I think I would go with 223.
 
If probably prefer a 20" for a shorter 6.5, but I think the 18.7" of the GSR would provide enough velocity for most hunting type uses.

http://www.barrettfieldcrafthunting.com/RZkeZ/

That guy chrono'd his 18" 6.5cm Barrett Fieldcraft with factory ammo and got:

143gr ELDx: 2,605 fps
140gr Amax: 2,559 fps
130gr Prime: 2,729 fps

That's not too bad, the 140/143 velocities are about like what you'd see out of a 20"-22" .308 with factory match loads in the 168gr - 178gr range but with much higher BC bullets.

My loads for my 22" 6.5 run 2,760 fps with 140 gr Accubonds, and 2,920 fps with 127gr LRX..... Drop maybe 100fps off of that for the 3.3" barrel loss and you'd still be doing pretty well.

I am surprised that the synthetic 6.5CM GSR is a whole pound heavier than the .308 version, I guess the 2.6" off extra barrel and smaller hole down the middle is responsible unless it has a different profile.
 
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The GSR seems a silly platform for the new wunderkartridge. The cartridge was designed as a low recoil precision paper puncher. The Scout Rifle was not designed to be a precision, long range rifle, nor will it deliver in such a capacity. You can't blame Ruger, the gunrags have gone gaga for 6.5CM and every company is pumping out 6.5CM rifles at a frenzied pace. Can't blame them for trying to cash in, but in this case, the cartridge and the rifle just don't match.

7mm-08 and 308 are good choices for the GSR. 358 Win would also be interesting. And while 450BM is a little silly, it's still in keeping with the Scout concept, just. I admit, its addition to the line-up has been the only thing to make me even consider the GSR or the Ranch (also offered in 450BM now). Wish they would do one in 454 Casull....
 
RPRNY said:
Wish they would do one in 454 Casull....
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Now that would be cool.

Heck even if they could do something similar to the 77-357 and 77-44 with the American action and a price point to match. I'd be all over a cool little bolt 357 for $500 or so.
 
If you want a grendel SR, brownells is offering howa barrelled actions in that caliber on sale for about $400 and you supply the stock.
 
boom boom said:
If you want a grendel SR, brownells is offering howa barrelled actions in that caliber on sale for about $400 and you supply the stock.
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I was going to go with one of those a little while back, but I went with the Ruger American Predator in 6.5 cm instead. I still want one of the little Howas in the future though.
 
swampcrawler said:
I was going to go with one of those a little while back, but I went with the Ruger American Predator in 6.5 cm instead. I still want one of the little Howas in the future though.
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I consider it but went with building a 6.8 SPC II upper instead. Like you, still on my list though. I don't have a 6.5 Creedmoor though but I have large ring mausers that might serve as a host for a new barrel. How do you like you 6.5 cm?
 
boom boom said:
How do you like you 6.5 cm?
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I absolutely adore the cartridge. I know there are other rounds that could fill my needs just as well, but I love the creed.

I don't do any long range shooting, I just wanted a sufficiently powerful medium game rifle with mild recoil, good factory ammo, and a good support structure (community, component availability, rifles and barrels) and man does it deliver.

It's a sweetheart to shoot, and mine is just under MOA with $15 per box federal fusion. And it turns pig to pork quite well.

IMG_2159.JPG
 
swampcrawler said:
I absolutely adore the cartridge. I know there are other rounds that could fill my needs just as well, but I love the creed.

I don't do any long range shooting, I just wanted a sufficiently powerful medium game rifle with mild recoil, good factory ammo, and a good support structure (community, component availability, rifles and barrels) and man does it deliver.

It's a sweetheart to shoot, and mine is just under MOA with $15 per box federal fusion. And it turns pig to pork quite well.

View attachment 761594
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I agree, I have come to really like both of my 6.5s. The RPR shoots very well, has non-existent recoil and does nicely in the wind at longer ranges. The Montana is right at 6 lbs ready to shoot, has low enough recoil to shoot 30-40 rds in a range trip, but still carries 1,500 ft-lbs to 400 yds.

The 6.5CM was optimized for target shooting, but that doesn't mean it isn't an excellent medium game cartridge. After all, the hunting performance of the Creedmoor mirrors the highly regarded .260 and 6.5 Swede in a better short action package. I probably won't buy a GSR in 6.5, but I honestly don't think it's any worse a chambering for the platform than the .308, and makes a lot more sense than other more traditional options like .243 Win or .358 win.
 
If I could build the "Ideal" scout rifle for myself, It would be a 9.3x62 with a 20" barrel. Thats just my take on it if I am going to use it for my "go to" rifle. I have two 9.3'x62's with longer barrels and really like the cartridge in general, especially for anything under 200 yards. I would give up little in velocity with the 20" barrel, but its not something I would use past 300 yards.

In regard to the 6.5CM, I think that if it fits your needs, I think it would be ideal. Ammo is available from many retailers as the round seems to have taken off quite well and is not longer just a nitch round for the matches.
 
Folks act like the fact the 6.5 creed was designed for competition automatically negates its application for killing game. If a 140grn bullet at 2700fps can't be used effectively on game, then I sure missed the memo...

Barrel life for the Creed is less than that of 308win, but so it is also for the .30-06, 270, 243win, 260rem, 7-08... The 6.5 creed is not a barrel burner - no barrel lasts forever, but the creed certainly does not abuse barrels. If you really want a barrel to last, don't shoot.
 
Varminterror said:
Folks act like the fact the 6.5 creed was designed for competition automatically negates its application for killing game. If a 140grn bullet at 2700fps can't be used effectively on game, then I sure missed the memo...
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I agree. I think some like to low rate it because it's popular and they think it's for foolish souls who are being duped by marketing. To me it's just background noise.
 
CraigC said:
I agree. I think some like to low rate it because it's popular and they think it's for foolish souls who are being duped by marketing. To me it's just background noise.
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I've been accused of being a "cartridge hipster" because I love oddball/obsolete/wildcat cartridges.. but the Creed is an excellent round, and it's nice to see an excellent new cartridge actually gain a foothold after all the flops that have come and gone.
 
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