Slide releases - an end to the nonsense in sight?

ATLDave said:

I've decided to stop firing my guns. After all, every time I drop the hammer or the striker, the sear engagement surfaces wear via friction. I will instead use my guns in a way that doesn't wear them out. They will serve me well as paperweights. Sealed in a vacuum bag.

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Now yer talkin'. Not too likely to get sued over a vacuum sealed pistol. Dead maybe, but not sued.

M

ATLDave said:

The decision to make the slide release ambidextrous merely puts the lie to the absurd notion that it is "wrong" or "improper" to use the slide release at all. It's obviously intended to be handled/pressed, otherwise it wouldn't make any difference whether it was ambidextrous. But you'd think the fact that a button was provided at all would have prevented confusion in the first place...

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I'm not seeing the logic on how this is a definitive "use the slide lock" because of ambi. My first read is it simply makes the gun easier for a lefty to engage, in the standard slide lock procedure.

I also fail to understand why this was ever a debate. Glock calls it a slide lock and says slingshot, thats what it is.

Use it differently, who cares? Why such a focus on terminology?

Anecdotally, I've had to switch to the slingshot method once I started shooting/carrying Sigs as my high grip tends to ride the slide lock. I've devated changing my grip, but I also shoot 1911s and Glocks and it works fine for them. So, for now, its slingshot.

ATLDave said:

Same thing I do in competition on the clock. If I've already fired a bunch, reload. If not, diagnose, at least far enough to figure out whether a tap-rack is going to improve or worsen the situation. I've seen a lot of "non-diagnostic" shooters create some pretty egregious jams by blindly going through their "procedures." I'm not a believer in that approach.

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If you’re standing in the open while “diagnosing” during competition then you’re training yourself to stand in the open during a gunfight.

The time it takes to diagnose a stoppage (gee, I shot more bullets than I thought and now my gun is empty) erases any perceived time saved by releasing the slide lock and then there is no practical difference.

Diagnosing a stoppage falls into the “Orientation” phase of the OODA loop, which can be corrupted by stoppages that look alike. You look through the ejection port, see brass and the stoppage can be a doublefeed, an in-line stovepipe, or failure to feed. If you misdiagnose then you don’t clear the stoppage and you have to cycle through your OODA loop again. The danger of diagnosing a stoppage is it sucks your attention into your gun and away from your attacker.

Tap, Roll & Rack can be performed very quickly and it’s an immediate action that will solve many different types of stoppages. If Tap, Roll & Rack fails to get the pistol running or you detect the slide is out of battery while performing Tap, Roll & Rack then, if you’re not already behind cover/concealment, it’s time to get moving and not stand there diagnosing. When Tap, Roll & Rack doesn’t work it’s your cue to get moving because your next immediate action(s) is going to take more time to accomplish. A failure of Tap, Roll & Rack trains you to get moving.

The progression of non-diagnostic immediate actions is 1) Tap, Roll & Rack, 2) Combat Reload, 3) Clear Doublefeed.

Tap, Roll & Rack can sometimes turn a stovepipe into a doublefeed because the slide is trying to feed a cartridge into the chamber, and this is probably why you’ve seen other competitors “make things worse” when they encounter a stoppage. Retracting and releasing the slide to clear the stovepipe may allow the slide to engage the next cartridge underneath the one that’s partially chambered and create a doublefeed. During training most people incorrectly “insert” a stovepipe failure by trapping an empty case between the slide breechface and barrel hood then insert a loaded magazine. This does not replicate true stovepipe conditions. The correct way is to seat a loaded magazine and then “insert” the stovepipe fault. Inserting the stoppage correctly for training is more difficult and more risky when live ammunition is used.

revchuck said:

<thread drift>
IME, this is definitely not an "economy of motion" thing, at least for a right-handed shooter.
</thread drift>

From what I've read, the slingshot method is preferred by some trainers because it works for all autoloaders, meaning they only have to teach one method in a class with various guns. My experience is that it really and truly sucks if you're using it with a pistol with a slide-mounted safety.

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Watch between the 11 - 14 second marks of this video to see the economy of motion in using the same technique between pistol and rifle -

ATLDave said:

Someone doing something inefficiently with two different guns is not "economy of motion."

Racking a slide and pulling the charging handle on an AR both take more motion than hitting a slide or bolt release.

Whatever the benefits of a purportedly-universal approach, "economy of motion" ain't one of them.

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The same motor skills to work the action are fluidly and efficiently employed across both platforms - skilled motor performance.

Hey, if you've 2 hands available to manually retract a pistol slide at any given moment, go for it. Just make sure the way you perform your favored technique doesn't create an additional, unexpected problem.

Also, don't mistake achieving "purity of technique" in releasing a locked slide with the necessary goal to be accomplished (getting the weapon back in operation).

ATLDave said:

Now that Glock's new 5th gen comes with ambi slide stops, can we at last let go of the notion that it's somehow bad or against the design intent to release the slide using the lever/button attached to the stop?

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Unfortunately they seem to have provided those useless slide serrations again. Gee, you think perhaps Gen 6 will come with smooth slide?

murf said:

i suggest you save up your money and buy a slide stop lever just in case yours wears out prematurely. it will probably wear out in a hundred thousand cycles, or so.

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A hundred thousand cycles of the slide lock means a hundred thousand reloads, which means probably two hundred thousand rounds down range.

A slide stop lever every two hundred thousand rounds isn't exactly a crippling cost.

ClickClickD'oh said:

A hundred thousand cycles of the slide lock means a hundred thousand reloads, which means probably two hundred thousand rounds down range.

A slide stop lever every two hundred thousand rounds isn't exactly a crippling cost.

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exactly.

murf

On Post #1. I do not believe that Glock Gen 5 having an ambidextrous slide stop marks the end of the slide-release versus slingshot question.
I believe it simply allows left handed shooters to join the slide-release versus slingshot controversy.

A hundred thousand cycles of the slide lock means a hundred thousand reloads, which means probably two hundred thousand rounds down range.

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Or maybe 5-8 times that number of rounds down range -- unless you only put a couple of rounds in your mags each time you shoot. (If you compete a lot, the round count could be quite high!)

Ahhhhhhhhhhh, and the slide lock release debates continue. I`ll add my own opinion to the mess... So, if i`m in a bad situation, NUMBER 1, all the rules are out the window... i`ll release that slide any way i can to get the gun into battery as fast as possible. If you`re down to one arm/hand, are you gonna wait for somebody to come over to you to slingshot your defense weapon for you...???? I think not. You`ll use that slide "LOCK LEVER" to release the slide if your life depends on it...end of story. I`ve grown tired of people saying it cant be used to release the slide into battery, and slingshot method is law. I have always found that if both your hands are gripping the gun, NOT reaching up to the slide to slingshot it with one hand removed off the grip, you`ll get faster more accurate shots to the target MUCH quicker. And if you cant reach the slide lock to release the slide with your thumb, you might want to re-think about the gun your shooting in the first place. Any gun i carry concealed, has to meet a certain criteria for me to trust it to defend my life. Its not important to me what the gun is, can i operate it efficiently and very quickly. And if i wear out the slide lock lever, i`ll replace it with a new one. They aren`t THAT expensive.

Anyway.... just my own opinion.

Just like brand choice, caliber choice, trigger function, I'll do it my way, no explanation needed.

I have used the tug to release the slide for decades. I teach my students to do this too. That doesn't mean having another option is a BAD thing,

The fastest technique that is a specialized solution to a specific problem may not be optimal. Having a menu of specialized solutions to pick and choose from increases your decision-making time as opposed to a series of sequential immediate actions that build upon one another.

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@Shawn Dodson. I agree 100% with this and all your posts in this thread. I will add that this is the problem with so many of the gun games these days and one of the reasons I quit competing in USPSA matches. I realized that I was training myself to get killed in a real gunfight. That said, I haven't used a slide stop to release a slide after a reload for at least 20 years. I've taken some courses with ex special forces folks (SEALs and Rangers) and none of them released the slide using the slide stop. They're not coming from the perspective of running the gun as fast as possible in order to win a stage at a USPSA match. Their focus is smooth and steady with an emphasis on a reliable technique that gives them the greatest probability of winning the fight.

MCMXI said:

@Shawn Dodson. I agree 100% with this and all your posts in this thread. I will add that this is the problem with so many of the gun games these days and one of the reasons I quit competing in USPSA matches. I realized that I was training myself to get killed in a real gunfight. That said, I haven't used a slide stop to release a slide after a reload for at least 20 years. I've taken some courses with ex special forces folks (SEALs and Rangers) and none of them released the slide using the slide stop. They're not coming from the perspective of running the gun as fast as possible in order to win a stage at a USPSA match. Their focus is smooth and steady with an emphasis on a reliable technique that gives them the greatest probability of winning the fight.

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Just another data point to consider.



I'm not trying to convince anybody to use the slide stop. I'm just pointing out there is more than one way to skin a cat. With some firearms, there is an advantage to using the slide stop, with other guns, there is an advantage to using the over hand.

I never train to use the charging handle on an AR for reloads. Use the bolt release or BAD lever. The charging handle is for charging and malfs only.

If that makes anyone want to use the slide release on a pistol more often, I'm OK with that.

MCMXI said:

I've taken some courses with ex special forces folks (SEALs and Rangers) and none of them released the slide using the slide stop.

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It's important to note that the SEALs do not use the M9, but rather the P226 which may be one of the platforms that work better with the overhand technique. I'm tempted to use it with my P6. I haven't worked on a deployment with Rangers so I can't comment on what they use.

It's important to note that the SEALs do not use the M9, but rather the P226 which may be one of the platforms that work better with the overhand technique. I'm tempted to use it with my P6. I haven't worked on a deployment with Rangers so I can't comment on what they use.

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SEALS also use a number of other handguns, and the Glock 19 was recently added to the inventory of available weapons. I'm not sure there is an actual standard "issued" weapon for all personnel -- as the weapons used appear to be dependent on what they're doing or plan to do... I've read that a number of U.S. Special Operations personnel use Glocks... But, as has often been noted in discussions like this,, handguns are not a primary weapon for most SEALs, Special Ops personnel, Rangers, or regular troops -- and unless the task at hand dictates otherwise (as might be the case when using suppressed/silenced weapons), most would choose something with a longer barrel that shoots more rounds more quickly.

Slide release/lock is faster
Slingshot it more tacticool and reliable, works for nearly any pistol.

I usually follow the manual and release the slide unless I have ever had an issue with ftf, which I haven't

Folks, you do realize it does several things. It can stop the slide. It can release the slide. And, it's used when you take down the pistol.

It doesn't matter what you call it.

I always slingshot. The "slide release" is a slide lock for me.