Slide releases - an end to the nonsense in sight?

[Zaydok Allen]

Whether you call it a slide stop or a slide release, the end result is the same. If you use it to release the slide, there is friction occurring. The name simply indicates the possibility that you may need to replace the part more often.

I've used the slide release on 1911's, HKs, Beretta, Sigs, and a few others. Never had a problem. I will eventually though if I keep those guns long enough....... and that's fine.

 

[armoredman]

To me this is indicative of a poorly engineered/manufactured gun....

We do the sling shot method because the notches on our Glock 17s and Glock 19s were getting rounded....

 

[JohnKSa]

But there's that argument that pulling the slide back let's it slam home with the "full force" of the spring. You know, because that extra 2-3mm of travel is going to add soooooo much more force.

I've actually had a situation where a gun would reliably load the first round from a full mag when using the slingshot method but would jam when using the slide stop.

The gun was dirty enough that it required that extra little bit of oomph to make it work reliably. It only took about 970 rounds without cleaning to get it to that point! That said, that's not the reason I train to drop the slide manually--I don't shoot my carry guns anywhere near that much without cleaning them.

The reason I drop the slide by retracting/releasing it manually is because some of my pistols (including one of my carry guns) don't have an external control that drops the slide. The manual method is the only way to do it. I figure it's best to have one approach that works for everything.

 

[Dain Bramage]

The CZ-52 doesn't have an external slide catch. You have to sling-shot the slide to release it from lock back. I consider that the final word on the subject.

Every other pistol ever made having an external catch, with grooves or other non-skid texture meant for human skin, is just wrong.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Decision-making is a good reason. However, from "an economy of motion" standpoint, the overhand is a less economical method than the slide stop/slide release.

See ATLDave's comment just above your post.

With training the time difference to perform the physical action is negligible. What matters is the time it takes to make the decision as to which action to perform. Using two different physical methods to put the slide in battery (retract and release AND release the slide lock) also increases the risk of making the wrong decision under stress, such as after a clearing a stoppage when the slide is already in battery when you seat the magazine (Do I rack the slide or hit the slide release?). It may seem like the choice is a no-brainer until someone is trying to kill you or you’re having to work your pistol with only your support hand due to injury. Make the wrong decision under stress and you encounter an unexpected situation, and then you have to start the decision-making process all over again. Doing it right the first time make take a little longer but doing it all over again takes even longer. The idea is to perform immediate actions that have the highest likelihood of success under challenging and extremely stressful conditions.

 

[ATLDave]

With training the time difference to perform the physical action is negligible.

I suppose that depends on whether you think a couple tenths of a second are negligible. They are not in competition. I suppose people might disagree about whether they are in a gunfight.

Using the slide release is faster because it can be done concurrently with re-establishing the firing grip.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I suppose that depends on whether you think a couple tenths of a second are negligible. They are not in competition. I suppose people might disagree about whether they are in a gunfight.

If you "slingshot " -- which you aren't advocating, here -- you MUST move the gun away from your point of aim -- and it will take more time than a couple of extra fractions of a second to get the gun/sights aligned again. (Funny, but nobody ever seems to mention THAT sort of lost time!)

In the competitive shooting I've done or observed, darn few of the shooters use the slingshot, but some WILL use a hand-over technique. If you use a "hand over the slide" technique you still have to move your hand UP to move the slide back and that HAS to take MORE than using your strong-hand thumb (or several fingers of the off-hand) on the slide stop/release lever. The time it takes to push the slide back and reposition the hand for the next shot is NOT negligible, and it will likely take a bitlonger than just using the strong-hand thumb or the fingers of the off-hand to press the slide stop/release lever.

Using a hand-over technique or pressing the slide stop/release will allow you to keep the gun up at eye-level and relatively on target. Most of the best shooters I've watched (i.e., most accurate and fastest) do keep the gun up and pointed in the right direction and at or close to eye level. (I try to do that, it's a goal, but I'm not one of the best shooters.) If you can use your thumb without shifting the gun, you've got the best option, but not all hands and all guns (for a given person's hand) works well that way...

And since we're talking competition, many competitive shooters have guns that automatically slam the slide shut if the mag is inserted with sufficient force. More than one of them will tweak their guns so that the slide slamming shut isn't an accidental/serendipitous action, either.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

In the context of combative shooting the time difference is negligible - seat, roll & rack and drive-on. Quickness comes from the motor repertoire of using the same technique to solve multiple problems (loading, unloading, reloading, clearing stoppages) with less decision-making. Combative techniques are not always about absolute speed because the fastest technique may not be the best and most reliable technique for any given situation. "Speed" versus "Quickness" -- Is the technique robust (insensitive to variable conditions)? Is it effective? Can it be performed quickly with high probability of success?

 

[ATLDave]

In the context of combative shooting the time difference is negligible - seat, roll & rack and drive-on.

If I'm in imminent danger of deadly injury - and, as a civilian, that's the only time I'm going to be trying to shoot someone - I wouldn't concede that a few tenths of a second is negligible.

Don't confuse an approach that is chosen as being suitable for the lowest common denominator of a large number of students with being the one that is actually optimal.

Or do, what do I care?

 

[JTQ]

In the context of combative shooting the time difference is negligible -...

Couldn't you just say, "sure, using the the slide lock/release is faster, but to simplify my training, I choose to use the overhand power stroke."

Why all the quibbling?

 

[murf]

glock slide stop lever w/spring $7.99 at brownells.

if you use the slide stop as a slide release, i suggest you save up your money and buy a slide stop lever just in case yours wears out prematurely. it will probably wear out in a hundred thousand cycles, or so.

murf

 

[MTMilitiaman]

It's not a slide release. It is part # 26 "slide stop lever" on the Glock schematic: https://www.google.com/search?q=glo...i=gZ6kWcOTCenj0gKhybyQBQ#imgrc=SlPSYFdXKJ3m-M:

It's point is to manually catch and hold the slide to the rear to allow you to clear the pistol. To release the slide, it is still correct to "slingshot" the slide. The reason for as this mentioned is two-fold; first operating a lever under duress is a fine motor skill and secondly, slingshot-ing the slide is more universal. During high stress encounters, blood is diverted from extremities to vital organs and larger muscle groups to prepare the body for fight or flight. This makes you less coordinated with your fingers but gives gross motor skills like grabbing with your hand more strength. So operating a small lever with your thumb will become more difficult under stress, even with training, whereas caveman-gripping the slide and racking it becomes easier. And while slide stop levers are generally located in similar places among different designs, they do vary sightly in location and operation among different designs. However, slide location and operation remains consistent. Therefore if you are training yourself in a particular manual of arms, it makes sense to consider how that manual of arms applies to other designs. You may only have (insert Kool Aid brand here) but it doesn't hurt to know how to use other designs and if there is something simple you can do that you should probably be doing anyway for other reasons that makes it easier to use not only your auto, but everyone else's as well, why wouldn't you?

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Why all the quibbling?

You're right -- it IS quibbling.

It is the rarest of civilian self-defense shootings that ever go past 3-4 rounds, and if either of the shooters is using an semi-auto, almost NONE of the shootings ever involve a second magazine. In THAT context, an extra fraction of a second spent reloading probably is neglible.

In the GUN GAMES, a the winning scores seem to be put up by the shooters who move from one position to another with the greatest efficiency and who, when taking their shots, place them with the greatest accuracy and speed. . All other things being equal, a faster reload is NOT NEGLIBLE, but all other things are seldom equal.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

It's not a slide release. It is part # 26 "slide stop lever" on the Glock schematic:

I wonder why Glock offers an extended slide stop -- as an extended lever is clearly unnecessary if Glock really thinks you should ONLY slingshot the slide?

Kahr, which also calls the part a slide stop says,in the owner's manual, to release the slide by pressing the slide stop lever and says DO NOT slingshot it.

As I've noted before, the U.S. Department of Defense has been teaching our military to use the slide stop to release the slide for over a decade! Why? Because in combat in Afghanistan and Iraq many shooters found that releasing the slide using the slingshot method didn't work well -- and to get the gun running the shooter had to either manually close the slide (by hitting it) or rack it again, losing a round in the process. Some folks with big hands, when using the handover technique with the M9, could unintentionally decock the weapon or engage the safety..

 

[larryh1108]

I don't know, after punching my nose a few times with the overhand power stroke I decided to do the slide release technique. It seemed to be less painful.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

If I'm in imminent danger of deadly injury - and, as a civilian, that's the only time I'm going to be trying to shoot someone - I wouldn't concede that a few tenths of a second is negligible.

What is your immediate action after you press the trigger and your pistol doesn’t fire? Release the slide lock? Look at your pistol and diagnose the problem? Move off the X? Move to cover? Tap, roll & rack? Perform a combat reload? The time difference is negligible in this context.

Don't confuse an approach that is chosen as being suitable for the lowest common denominator of a large number of students with being the one that is actually optimal.

The fastest technique that is a specialized solution to a specific problem may not be optimal. Having a menu of specialized solutions to pick and choose from increases your decision-making time as opposed to a series of sequential immediate actions that build upon one another.

 

[ATLDave]

What is your immediate action after you press the trigger and your pistol doesn’t fire? Release the slide lock? Look at your pistol and diagnose the problem? Move off the X? Move to cover? Tap, roll & rack? Perform a combat reload?

Same thing I do in competition on the clock. If I've already fired a bunch, reload. If not, diagnose, at least far enough to figure out whether a tap-rack is going to improve or worsen the situation. I've seen a lot of "non-diagnostic" shooters create some pretty egregious jams by blindly going through their "procedures." I'm not a believer in that approach.

You are. That's fine. My point is that surely we can now leave behind the absurd claim that it is "wrong" to use a slide release to drop the slide.

 

[hdwhit]

My RG-25 relies on a tab in the magazine to hold it open after its last shot so there's no release to push.

My Taurus PT-111's slide release is so stiff that I can't activate it with just my thumb so I usually have to manually pull the slide back to release the slide stop.

On the 1911 I inherited from my grandfather, the slide stop is so well used that it presses down with a very comfortable level of pressure so I use it to release the slide. It is the way I saw my grandfather do it from the time I was old enough to realize what he was doing.

So I guess where I come down on the OP's question is, "If there is a slide release, it can be reached while holding the gun and it can be activated with reasonable pressure, I use it."

 

[Walt Sherrill]

What is your immediate action after you press the trigger and your pistol doesn’t fire? Release the slide lock?

I think this discussion is about the best way to release a locked-back slide. Not the steps used when doing a clearance drill or dealing with a failure to fire. Different situations require a different response.

• If the slide was locked back, I'd probably mentally kick myself in the butt and swap mags. I think it would be a silly waste of time to rack the slide as part of a clearance drill when there was an empty mag in the gun!
  
  
• If the slide wasn't locked back, I'd probably do a clearance drill.

If I was in a real-life self-defense situation and I couldn't tell the difference between those two conditions I'd probably be better off throwing the gun at the bad guy while trying to run away!

 

[Zerodefect]

I always tilt the gun back to see into the chamber when it fails or needs reloaded. The time it takes to grab a fresh mag off of my belt is more than enough to look in the chamber simultaneously.

If there's anything in there: lock, strip, rack, reload.

 

[cfullgraf]

I've gotten into the habit of racking the slide as opposed to using the slide release because of two main reasons.

My main defense pistol is a Walther PPK which does not have a slide release.

A couple decades ago a famous 1911 pistol smith told me it was hard on the sear in a 1911 to let the slide crash home on an empty chamber. So, I got in the habit of riding the slide closed when working on it when empty or racking the slide to chamber the next round when the magazine was charged.

It is where I have elected to concentrate my muscle memory regardless of the semi auto handgun in my hand.

If I was competing or in a profession where firearms were an important part of my kit, I'd probably use the slide release to recharge the gun on a magazine change, assuming the allowable firearms had slide releases. It is a bit more efficient than other charging methods.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

My main defense pistol is a Walther PPK which does not have a slide release.

A couple decades ago a famous 1911 pistol smith told me it was hard on the sear in a 1911 to let the slide crash home on an empty chamber. So, I got in the habit of riding the slide closed when working on it when empty or racking the slide to chamber the next round when the magazine was charged.

I think the 1911 is about the only weapon that is potentially damaged by letting the slide slam shut. There may be other, similar designs that can be damaged by similar treatment, but 1911s seem to be the only ones ever mentioned.

Keep in mind, however, that you almost never have a reason to let a slide crash home on an empty chamber, as the slide can be released slowly. Then, too, EMPTY CHAMBERS were never part of this discussion, as we've been debating the most effective way of loading the first round when inserting a fresh magazine.

If the PPK is your primary carry weapon, it makes sense to concentrate on that functionality.

 

[RA40]

Those with high round count semi's, any pics of the notch or stop wear? On mine they exhibit a thin strip where the surfaces contact though they are still pretty squared off.

 

[ATLDave]

I've decided to stop firing my guns. After all, every time I drop the hammer or the striker, the sear engagement surfaces wear via friction. I will instead use my guns in a way that doesn't wear them out. They will serve me well as paperweights. Sealed in a vacuum bag.

 

[revchuck]

I also retract and release the charging handle on my AR, instead of manually operating the bolt stop...

<thread drift>
IME, this is definitely not an "economy of motion" thing, at least for a right-handed shooter.
</thread drift>

From what I've read, the slingshot method is preferred by some trainers because it works for all autoloaders, meaning they only have to teach one method in a class with various guns. My experience is that it really and truly sucks if you're using it with a pistol with a slide-mounted safety.