Loose rifle stock: effect on load development

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Tony k

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Mods: this might be better off in "rifle country." Wasn't sure.


Last few weekends I've been working up some .270 loads with Hornady gmx 130s, IMR 4350, IMR 4451, and H4831. I went bananas on load development. I had a great time, and even found one (yeah only one) consistantly sub moa load. I shot 99 gmx bullets, which is about $60 bucks worth.

I clean/ remove copper after about every 20 rounds because it builds up fast in this rifle. This last time I noticed excessive play between the stock and barrel/reciever. It was enough that I could see movement as far back as the middle of the ejection port. Both bolts securing the receiver to the stock were completely loosened.

I'm now worried that all the accuracy data is contaminated with erratic barrel/stock interaction. Rifle is a Savage 111 with standard barrel profile, so I know barrel whip is a consideration.

What would you do?

Just retest the most promising loads?
Or try again from scratch?

Or just roll with the one good load you know is accurate (59.5 grains of H4831 shot a .59moa 3 shot group and a .89moa 5 shot group based on "range buddy" app).
 
Tonyk wrote:
Both bolts securing the receiver to the stock were completely loosened.
Click to expand...

Do you know if they were tight before you began testing your various test loads?

If so, my first concern would be how 100 rounds caused the screws to loosen that much. Are these loads close to maximum? Over maximum?
 
Well, the good news is that even with a loose stock, you found a sub moa load. :thumbup:

How many different loads do you need? You could always retest later on, after you've first established that your one good load is still working for you.
 
hdwhit said:
Do you know if they were tight before you began testing your various test loads?

If so, my first concern would be how 100 rounds caused the screws to loosen that much. Are these loads close to maximum? Over maximum?
Click to expand...

I suspect they loosened up early in the testing based on how my accuracy results didn't seem to jive from one outing to the next.

No, all the loads were within data from Hornady 10th addition. In fact, with the imr 4350 and 4451 I stopped about 2/3rds of the way to Max due to flattened primers. Highest I went with h4831 was 60 grains.

I used think I used blue loctite on the threads when I first installed this Boyd's stock. It was about 4 years ago though.
 
WrongHanded said:
Well, the good news is that even with a loose stock, you found a sub moa load. :thumbup:

How many different loads do you need? You could always retest later on, after you've first established that your one good load is still working for you.
Click to expand...
I only need one good load. But I was hoping for better results from the Imr 4451 because of it's copper fouling reduction claim. .
 
WrongHanded said:
Then that's worth trying again. Don't you think?
Click to expand...
Yep. In fact, I kinda hope the barrel rattling around against the forend was the reason I got such erratic results. I was really hopeful about these new enduron powders. This series of tests were a disappointment.
 
This goes back to check EVERYTHING first when accuracy testing. I have been bitten by a loose scope mount twice so now I always check torque settings on the scope mount screws, rail, action bedding screws etc., and thoroughly clean the firearm each time before I test things out. IMHO it is well worth the up front time invested. Also doing it all again or not is going back to how thorough you want to be. I would retest the promising ones first then adjust as necessary.
 
Fix the stock and go for it again of course starting with what was best before , you know you have to fix the stock so do it and re confirm accuracy that's all you can do. Always always degrease all screws and properly torque all screws and maybe add blue loctite if found necessary especially for everything that involves the scope, you have to have confidence and a firm starting point in the world of consitent accuracy.
 
Tony k said:
I only need one good load. But I was hoping for better results from the Imr 4451 because of it's copper fouling reduction claim. .
Click to expand...
Since you said H4831 gave you the best accuracy try using IMR4955 instead of IMR4451 which is actually closer in burn rate to 4350. IMR4955 is manufactured with the same process and also includes a copper fouling reduction agent.

You can use up the 4451 for loads the 30-06 or 308 Win if you have them.
 
ArchAngelCD said:
Since you said H4831 gave you the best accuracy try using IMR4955 instead of IMR4451 which is actually closer in burn rate to 4350. IMR4955 is manufactured with the same process and also includes a copper fouling reduction agent.

You can use up the 4451 for loads the 30-06 or 308 Win if you have them.
Click to expand...

I was thinking along the same lines. I've had good luck with IMR 7828, and now it seems that H4831 works in my 270 (gee, image that, a 270 that likes h4831). Seems like I should do more with the slower end.

We'll see how the retests go. I just got 100 more bullets in the mail today.
 
I retested the four best loads from previous tests. All loads were with gmx 130s seated about .060 off the lands. New Hornady brass. WLR primers

IMR 4451 @ 53.6 grains. 5 shot group measured .61 moa on Range Buddy.

KIMG0149.JPG

IMR 4350 didn't do as well, but still delivered good results, imo. 51 grains gave me 1.5 moa 5shot group.
KIMG0150.JPG

54 grains gave me 1.2 moa group
KIMG0150.JPG
 

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Continued from previous post
H4831 actually did slightly worse that previously due to a "flier", but I consider this group acceptable as well. Range Buddy calculation is 1.23 moa. Without the flier it's about .5moa KIMG0152.JPG
 
Several things strike me as problematical. You did not identify the action you are using???
Torque it to about 60 inch lbs and try it again.

Copper fouling may be detrimental and then again in some rifles is beneficial.

After you snug everything down try you best load (loose) and shoot 30 continuous rounds) at the rate of one shot per minute in three 10 shot groups in order to determine if build up is detrimental.

At Aberdeen when we shot dispersion on the 100 yard indoor ranges we shot 10 rounds off the side of the target to condition the barrels. Shot out barrels sometimes shoot very well for about 5 rounds then open up.

Beware, changing anything in your scheme (change of primer lots, change of propellant lot, different box of bullets) can be detrimental to the ballgame.

I note on your groups you seem to get a low right shot about every time. Do you plot shots at the bench of where they were in the sequence fired?

In 5.56 I noted when the barrels started to get tired I sustained a wide shots at 9:00 and the Test Operation Procedure called for discounting wild shots out of the groups.

Some barrels will go "walkabout" starting from cold/clean be it from fouling or getting warm it relaxes a bit for lack of a better term.

I had a New England 223 Single shot rifle that gave me 1" groups at 100 yards that was 12" high ! ! ! ! ! Per the factory personnel those barrel were not stressed relieved.
 
You may want to give this article a read:Savage Action Screw Torque Tuning.
What is the torque spec for my action screws?
Accustock models - 40 inch pounds (including wedge screw)
Centerfire w/ synthetic stock - 30-35 inch pounds
Centerfire w/ wood stock - 30-35 inch pounds
Centerfire w/ laminate stock - 30-35 inch pounds
Rimfire w/ any stock - 15 inch pounds

The above numbers are approximation and while I never played this game with a Savage my brother-in-law did with his Savage Match Rifle and achieved really good results. I played the game with a Remington 700 VSSF in .223 Remington and it really made a difference. I would work with the load which gave you the best results rather than start at square one.

As to the cold /clean? I have watched the bench rest guys shoot 3 rounds and clean the bore, then shoot three more and repeat. When I start I shoot a few fouling shots, maybe five rounds. Then I just shoot till I am done. I do like to monitor my barrel temperature and as long as it is not hot to the touch I don't worry about it. That is for .223 Remington and .308 Winchester bolt guns. Maybe about 45 seconds between shots with an ambient air temperature around 75 F.

Ron
 
Hummer70 said:
Several things strike me as problematical. You did not identify the action you are using???
Torque it to about 60 inch lbs and try it again.

Copper fouling may be detrimental and then again in some rifles is beneficial.

After you snug everything down try you best load (loose) and shoot 30 continuous rounds) at the rate of one shot per minute in three 10 shot groups in order to determine if build up is detrimental.

At Aberdeen when we shot dispersion on the 100 yard indoor ranges we shot 10 rounds off the side of the target to condition the barrels. Shot out barrels sometimes shoot very well for about 5 rounds then open up.

Beware, changing anything in your scheme (change of primer lots, change of propellant lot, different box of bullets) can be detrimental to the ballgame.

I note on your groups you seem to get a low right shot about every time. Do you plot shots at the bench of where they were in the sequence fired?

In 5.56 I noted when the barrels started to get tired I sustained a wide shots at 9:00 and the Test Operation Procedure called for discounting wild shots out of the groups.

Some barrels will go "walkabout" starting from cold/clean be it from fouling or getting warm it relaxes a bit for lack of a better term.

I had a New England 223 Single shot rifle that gave me 1" groups at 100 yards that was 12" high ! ! ! ! ! Per the factory personnel those barrel were not stressed relieved.
Click to expand...

Action is a long action Savage model 111, as described in the first post.

Barrel has between 500 and 1000 rounds through it. Bore was cleaned repeatedly with gunslick foaming bore cleaner until no blue discoloration was visible on the patches.

Stock is a Boyd's plywood. Action screws torqued to about 25 in/lbs using a needle style torque wrench (I've got a more appropriate one on order).

I think 30 continuous rounds in 30 minutes is unnecessary for a hunting rifle. That's a recipe for premature barrel wear. I understand the value in doing that in military rifles, though.

I shoot 4 foulers, then proceeded with the test loads, then let it cool for 10 minutes. I then shoot each 5shot group then let the rifle cool with the action open for 15 minutes between groups. I've considered trying the technique where you shoot one round from each load, but I always worry I'll shoot the wrong Target.

No, I haven't been charting each shot, but I might start to see if there is a pattern to when the low/right shot occurs.
 
Reloadron said:
You may want to give this article a read:Savage Action Screw Torque Tuning.
What is the torque spec for my action screws?
Accustock models - 40 inch pounds (including wedge screw)
Centerfire w/ synthetic stock - 30-35 inch pounds
Centerfire w/ wood stock - 30-35 inch pounds
Centerfire w/ laminate stock - 30-35 inch pounds
Rimfire w/ any stock - 15 inch pounds

The above numbers are approximation and while I never played this game with a Savage my brother-in-law did with his Savage Match Rifle and achieved really good results. I played the game with a Remington 700 VSSF in .223 Remington and it really made a difference. I would work with the load which gave you the best results rather than start at square one.

As to the cold /clean? I have watched the bench rest guys shoot 3 rounds and clean the bore, then shoot three more and repeat. When I start I shoot a few fouling shots, maybe five rounds. Then I just shoot till I am done. I do like to monitor my barrel temperature and as long as it is not hot to the touch I don't worry about it. That is for .223 Remington and .308 Winchester bolt guns. Maybe about 45 seconds between shots with an ambient air temperature around 75 F.

Ron
Click to expand...

I've been researching Savage torque specs since this issue popped up. Once I get my fat wrench I might try torque tuning the action.
 
Tony k said:
I've been researching Savage torque specs since this issue popped up. Once I get my fat wrench I might try torque tuning the action.
Click to expand...
Just something you may want to play around with. As mentioned we tweaked and peaked my brother-in-law's Savage rifle this way and got really good results as to shrinking groups.

Ron
 
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