Rem 870 vs win model 12

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milemaker13

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Stopped at LGS today, just nosing around looking at shotguns. They have a couple in the used rack. One is a Remington (Ilion, ny) 870 in 20 ga. selling for about $350. Another is a Winchester model 12 in 12 ga. Selling for about $500.

The 870 looks almost unused, and 20 ga would probably suit my needs (all day range use and wife shooting it) better.

The model 12 is older, about 1930's IIRC, and well used but in good condition. It does not have choke tubes.

Any opinions on these couple guns? And compared to ordering a Maverick 88 with both barrels for about $250 said and done.

Ok, across town to another LGS;)
 
Next LGS had a couple interesting shotguns. Keep in mind I'm looking for a budget gun for some clay birds at the range, nothing too serious yet. I like the older stuff, but everything has a mechanical life so..
Winchester M12 in 20ga with a cutts comp on the end. Looks to be in decent shape for $225.
Ithaca 37 in 20ga with 2 barrels (one skt, other I didn't see) for $375. Good shape.
One other was a western field in 20 ga. Well used, selling for $100. This one is obviously a utility grade gun, not very attractive.
They also had an older (still Ilion, NY) rem 870 in 20 ga, selling for $575.

Wish pawn shops around here handled firearms. Maybe I'll head out to some shops farther out this week and see what I can find.
 
The first 870 seemed like a good choice. Nearly new (no noticable wear marks). IIRC, that 870 also had interchangeable choke tubes... What's a reasonable price on that? I seem to remember that was one of the black Friday deals for about $200(camo 12 ga)@ Bass pro this year.
 
milemaker13 said:
The first 870 seemed like a good choice. Nearly new (no noticable wear marks). IIRC, that 870 also had interchangeable choke tubes... What's a reasonable price on that?
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Is it an Express or a Wingmaster, matte finish with plain wood or a nice gloss with walnut? Not a horrible price with choke tubes, but a steal if it is a Wingmaster.

milemaker13 said:
Ithaca 37 in 20ga with 2 barrels (one skt, other I didn't see) for $375.
Click to expand...
I never liked the way the Ithacas shot, and always pounded my shoulder, but some people like them. They have a bit different dimensions in the stock than other guns.


milemaker13 said:
Winchester M12 in 20ga with a cutts comp on the end.
Click to expand...

Will be a good gun, but LOUD, and I believe the Cutts had choke tubes, but if they didn't come with it good luck finding any.

The Western Field is most likely a Mossberg hardware store brand that Sears carried.
 
Hard to give advice on used guns without seeing them.
I would take a look at a new Mossberg 500.
You should be able to get one for about $350.
 
I don't care for expresses. If its a wingmaster, then it could be a good deal. Of the mentioned, id take the ithaca. But as drunkenpoacher said, its hard to know withought looking. Can't go wrong with a new mossberg 500 though. Beats the expresses imo.
 
milemaker13 said:
Winchester M12 in 20ga with a cutts comp on the end. Looks to be in decent shape for $225.
Click to expand...

kudu said:
Will be a good gun, but LOUD, and I believe the Cutts had choke tubes, but if they didn't come with it good luck finding any.
Click to expand...

If that Model 12 is in serviceable shape I would jump on it for that price!! I totally agree with kudu. That gun is probably set up for skeet and has an IC or Mod choke tube. I think it would be great for skeet or an upland bird gun as it is chambered for 2-3/4" shells. The Cutts was actually a very popular modification back in the 50'-60's.

When I worked as a puller/setter at a trap/skeet range in 69-70 I had a shooting buddy who had a Model 12 20 gauge with a Cutts who let me shoot it once in a while. Smooth, sweet gun, and kudu is right: it is LOUD, and teen dummies like me shot with no hearing protection back then!

If you don't want it, buy it and send it to me.

All this coming from a Rem 870 Wingmaster fanatic.

Jim
 
Virginian said:
The Model 12 has almost a cult status among some, but I would definitely take an 870. Just feels different and better to me.
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I totally agree, sir! The 870 Wingmaster is a heavier gun in the same gauge/barrel length as a Model 12 and, therefore, is harder to stop the swing of the gun allowing a better follow through.

I would rather tote a Model 12 throughout the day as it is lighter in weight and faster to mount to the shoulder and one just has to make the extra effort to keep swinging ahead of the bird, no matter if it is a clay or a live bird.

The longest shot I ever made on a pheasant was 60+ paces using my Dad's Model 12 16 gauge field grade 28" FC on a crossing shot. I wish I had it but when he died in 2010 his widow took it and I have not seen it since. She probably pawned it. She was not the sharpest tack in the box.

There is actually no comparison between those guns. Each is so dissimilar.

And I am primarily a 870 Wingmaster guy. IMO, forget about the Expresses and all the newer tacticool 870's.

I am old school.

Jim
 
Shotgun prices are falling a bit here in Indiana since they opened up deer season to include rifles of most calibers, not just a select few handgun calibers. People are dumping their slug/field shotguns in favor of a new .30-06. Prices at the gun show I was at a couple weeks ago were pretty good. Saw several older 870 Wingmasters between the $300 and $400 range and quite a few Express' in the $200-$250 range. Mossberg 500's were all over for under $200. The 870TB I bought for $500 will probably get sold once I determine if I am going to be able to get a handle on how it shoots or not. A couple decent M12's were in the $600 range, a bit over priced for my taste.
 
My trap gun is an 870 TB Wingmaster, using continuously since '72. My skeet gun is a M12 with a Cutts, made in '47. The Rem is easier to service and repair or change components. The Win is slick but getting expensive to fix.
I'd buy both.
 
In your instance, milemaker13, I recommend the 870. I myself would be tempted by that Ithaca, depending on what the other barrel is.
 
I actually own all three! The Winchester, the 870, and the Ithaca 37 all have their place. If all are functional and comparable, then get the one that fits you best when shouldering it!
 
I think the first 870 was an Express, matt finish and non glossy wood. Second 870 was a wing master.

On the M12 in 20 ga with the cutts: what would I look for in determining serviceability? Outter finish looked ok, not great but not bad. The S/n on that one was 1503044 IIRC. Can anyone translate that into year of mfg? What about parts for older m12's? Easy to get/ readily available?

The first m12's I saw today we're mfg in late 20's and early 30's . I must admit, that definitely turns me on. How do these guns generally hold up?
 
drunkenpoacher said:
Hard to give advice on used guns without seeing them.
I would take a look at a new Mossberg 500.
You should be able to get one for about $350.
Click to expand...
If looking at the moss 500, I think I would just order the mav 88 new. 18.5 and 28" barrels, I think the field barrel has interchangeable choke tubes.
Honestly, that may just be the best value for my intended purposes.

First shop had a couple Beretta autoloaders for about 500/700 bucks. Nice... But I kinda think I want a pump...

As an aside... I'd always had a hard time cycling pumps... Couldn't get my finger on that danged little tab to release the action... Duh. I learn something new every time I visit my friendly LGS for a chat.
 
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Seems like the M12 with the cutts is 1955 mfg... S/n 1503044. Price $225.
What specifically should I look at to determine mechanical condition?

The comp will make the gun louder? Does it soften the felt recoil? Is this an accessory you would want on your shotgun? I don't care for the way it looks...
If the barrel was shortened and the cutts added could this account for the lower price tag (compared to other m12's)?
 
Let's talk 12 vs 20 gauge....

I like the idea of 20 for all day family fun.

16 & 28 have kinda gone the way of the dodo, yes? Harder to find ammo for these...
 
20 gauge will take everything up to and including pheasant. 12 gauge better for taking wild turkey. You could always buy a 12 and shoot light loads. Or a 16 or 28 and shoot heavier loads. I wouldn't make the gauge the deciding factor if I found the gun I wanted. It is a little harder to find 16 and 28.
 
milemaker13 said:
If the barrel was shortened and the cutts added could this account for the lower price tag (compared to other m12's)?
Click to expand...
Yes, lots of older guns have them and the value is significantly reduced. I wouldn't buy because of it but I'm not saying you shouldn't.
A 20 gauge would probably be a better choice if the wife and kids will be using it.
16 & 28 gauge are less common but ammo is available, just not at Wal-mart.
 
I'm reading that factory installed cutts compensators we're discontinued in 1954, and this one seems to be 1955 I think. The barrel looked rather short. I should bring a tape measure next time.
 
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