Rem 870 vs win model 12

Status
Not open for further replies.
Cutts compensaters were cutting edge in their time, had choke tubes and reduced recoil and muzzle rise. Ugly and loud, but worked surprisingling well. Rare to see one on a 20 gauge. 20 gauge will work for all clay sports games, but will leave you lacking slightly in trap and sporting clays. If you are just in it for fun, get a 20. Offer is still open when we get good weather to visit with me and see our gun club.
 
The 12's were fairly bombproof.
Barring anything obvious/dramatic on picking up and handling, I'd open the action and use your index finger to feel up into the top of the action where the bolt stop is. If the edge remains smooth (no jagged edge from slam-firing/partially locked up), you're good to go.

As to the Cutts, I've got three M12s (& two 870s).The two M12s w/ the Cutts swing and point far more naturally. Go figure.


FWIW, these guys are the experts: http://www.wrightsgunsmiths.com/wrightsgunsmiths_004.htm


.
 
Last edited:
Very nice looking gun triple D! I can agree with that statement. I've been reading and the craftsmanship of a model 12 is very alluring.
I like the classic look of the wooden " corn cob" fore arm vs the larger fore arms on many shotguns.
A couple 12s I looked at were made back in the 20s and 30s. They looked well worn but I would love to own a working gun of that vintage.
Has internal parts changed much over the years? For example, would parts made many years later still fit a gun that old?
I've read that the internals are hand fitted, would this mean that many replacement parts need to be hand fitted in order to work (ie- a little filing or such)?
 
For $225, assuming good condition, I would be all over that 20 ga. M12 like stink on poo!! Then it would go either to Briley or Simmons to have the Cutts removed and choke tubes or PolyChoke installed. The Poly is ugly, but not as ugly as the Cutts. And, has been mentioned, the Cutts is LOUD! Either option is $250 or less, plus shipping of the barrel.

I have 5 Model 12s and 3 870s (all Wingmasters). They all work, and work quite well. My oldest 870 is from the late 60s. My oldest M12 is from 1919, and was by Grandfather's shotgun. First gun I ever bought, at age 13 in 1962, was a M12 made in 1921. Paid $40 for it and still have it.

Bottom line is both the 870 and M12 are excellent shotguns. Get the one that you like and enjoy it.
 
Your older m12's are still running well I take it? Being new to these particular guns (I had some shotguns years ago but didn't know much back then and foolishly traded them away) its difficult for me to assess condition.
I can say that in my area, and with the internet, the shops are not known for 'amazing deals' on guns... Especially potentially collectable ones.
I'm sure there is a reason the price is $225 vs 5-6-700 like the other 12s in the shop. This is the only one with the ugly cutts (& possibly shortened barrel). I'm may go back today and take a closer look. My phone camera isn't working so I can't get pics.
Outward appearance isn't my priority on this one, but mechanical condition and continued serviceability is.
I wouldn't be sending this in to remove the comp, for the added cost I would purchase a different gun.
On the cutts comp: I was looking at pics to determine what is the choke tubes, in order to determine what is actually included on the gun. Can you guys help clarify this point? Is the actual choke tubes what screws on past the slotted body of the comp? Pics I've seen long and short ones.. I believe this gun has a short one(spreader?).
 
Looking at replacement parts I'm finding they can be quite expensive, and allot of parts for 20ga guns are out of stock (numrich). I'd hate to buy an inexpensive older gun and then spend 3 times its cost on a few replacement parts or barrels.
 
That's the main problem with the model 12; it's been out of production for so long that replacement parts or other barrels can be tough to find, and pricy when you do! 870 parts and barrels are just about everywhere, and simply taking them down to repair or deep clean is just a you tube video away.

The original 870 Wingmaster also has some (increasing) collectibility and nice older barrels can also bring a premium... but they are usually less expensive and easier to work on than the m12.

My m12 is a solid rib 16 ga with the 28" FC barrel. It originally had an 18" plain bead Cyl barrel/ forearm set that had matching serial numbers to the frame and 28" barrel, but for some reason my grandfather traded the short barrel off back in the mid 1980's before it was gifted to me in 1990.
 
I am one of many that consider the Model 12 to be the best pump gun ever made. If I were buying a shotgun for the purposes you have stated I wouldn't buy a Model 12 unless it was in excellent condition and maybe not even then. Good current production shotguns can be found at very reasonable prices. Parts and accessories are easy to find. Choke tubes and extra barrels add versatility.
Before choke tubes and easily changed barrels the Cutts, Poly choke and others were a practical accessory. Now they are an irritating blemish on many fine old guns.
 
Let's talk 12 vs 20 gauge....

I like the idea of 20 for all day family fun.

16 & 28 have kinda gone the way of the dodo, yes? Harder to find ammo for these...

Assuning Remington is 20ga Wingmaster made on scaled frame (not one of them earlier ones made on 12ga action) I would pick that over standrd 12ga Model 12. If winchester was Featherweight 12ga or standard model 12 16ga I would take the Winchester.
 
Let's consider one of the 870s I saw at the second LGS. A little over budget at $575, but I may be able to get that down a bit.
This gun looked older, a wing master in 20 ga. IIRC it also had two barrels.
Again, if I'm remembering correctly, the 870 has twin action bars, whereas the 12 & 37 have singles. May not make a difference (considering they all work;)) but I like the advantage twin bars seem to offer.
Now the mav 88 has twin bars and twin extractors... I know that Walmart carries the 88, but not in my area (no guns, only ammo at certain stores:(). Maybe I can call around and check stock... Save a transfer fee and be out the door at $200..
 
A single action bar because the barrel is threaded into the receiver on the Model 12 and Model 31 and Model 17 and Model 37, its a stronger hook up between receiver and barrel so you don't need dual action bars.

http://www.randywakeman.com/Ithaca37_Browning_ BPS_Compare.htm

The way I see it you have to look at the Model 12 and its stellar history. That damn shotgun excelled at everything it did. The American gold medal winning Olympic trap team in 1920, Model 12s were used by some members. The 1924 American gold medal winning Olympic trap team all members used Model 12s except one who used a double, The Individual Olympic gold medal winner in either 1952 or 1956 was a Canadian who used a Model 12.

You may say, so what, Perazzi and Beretta are dominating today. But now you look at its military record. The acclaim in both World Wars plus our military ordered more Model 12s in World War Two than any other shotgun and its use is documented throughout the Pacific Theater. You don't see to many Perazzi shotguns on the battlefield.

In my opinion, that is documented with facts that are easily verified, there isn't a shotgun made on this planet that can match its history.

But its now 2017 and its old. Some say they use steel in their Model 12s but I've never seen it and according to the last story I've heard all Remington 870s are steel capable. If you have to use other types of non toxic shotshells they're very expensive in relation to steel, which can be used in the Remington you're looking to buy.

Its your decision but with this lead shot controversy it may get worse or other states may adopt California's draconian laws. Then where will you be 10 or 20 years down the road?
 
Last edited:
Assuning Remington is 20ga Wingmaster made on scaled frame (not one of them earlier ones made on 12ga action) I would pick that over standrd 12ga Model 12. If winchester was Featherweight 12ga or standard model 12 16ga I would take the Winchester.

Important Note:

Standard (12 ga.) Receiver "X" 20 ga. 870 WM Bbls other than the OEM 28" MOD are hard to find.

Other than that?

Like it a lot.




GR
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top