Clemont & Gibbons

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Here's a rare confed revolving belt pistol for you:

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/738858860

Clemont & Gibbons. Looks kind of like the modern .44 brasser repros, no? Pare one with a Dance bbl (if it'll fit) and you could have a little repro going boys. Not much in the history books about these but looks a dandy fightsman's pistol.

-CD

Cooldill,

Thanks for posting this. I learn something new everyday, which is a good thing! I will be trying to find out more but probably a non-starter.

I would not think there are many folks who own a Pietta repro 1860 Army .44 fluted cylinder brasser (maybe Cullen Bohannon) and a Pietta repro Dance .44. If so, it would be a good try.

The Pietta Dance does not have a rebated cylinder, and the cylinder is quite a bit larger in diameter than their 1851 Navy .36 cylinder. Their Dance .44 is different than anything on the market.

First stage:

If I wanted to attempt this project, I would start with a Pietta 1851 Navy .44 brasser (with manufacture date of 2015 [CN] or later for a more accepted grip profile), have a machine shop flute the cylinder (or find a used one), and purchase a VTI Pietta Confederate .44 Round barrel @ $125 (P/N A345/CF44), and use the load lever, rammer, and screws from the original octagon barrel. Cold blue the cylinder flutes (if machined). So far I am up to at least $450 in costs. It will look good in pics. The original pistol has the rammer pivot screw entering from the left and the load aperture is very similar to the modern day Pietta.

Second stage:

To further create a more "perfect" repro, defarb the frame and new barrel of the proof marks, billboards, and serial number.

Obtain a set of stamps with a similar font to mark the various numbers and manufacturer's name/patent pending similar to the OP's pics. Pick your serial number and reblue the various parts.

If one does everything, the teller will be the metric screw threads as opposed to SAE screw threads.

I am not a defarb fan. As you can tell, I am a devoted fan of parts exchanging on Pietta 1851 Navy .36 pistols to create various Colt and Confederate models and I keep the proof marks and billboards on my guns.

Again, Cooldill, thanks for entertaining my fantasies!

Regards,

Jim
 
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Highly suspicious. How a couple of obscure northern rifle/musket makers half a country apart could be attributed to a brass framed revolver is ludicrous at best.

To duplicate this one, all you would need is a current production Pietta .44 cal brass framed G&G. Their ref # is CFT44 any number of which can be found on Gun Broker (with incorrect pictures). Then add a half fluted rebated .44 cylinder and defarb and antique it and voila, there you have it, a hitherto unknown Confederate revolver that was made in the North.
 
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Highly suspicious. How a couple of obscure northern rifle/musket makers half a country apart could be attributed to a brass framed revolver is ludicrous at best.

To duplicate this one, all you would need is a current production Pietta .44 cal brass framed G&G. Their ref # is CFT44 any number of which can be found on Gun Broker (with incorrect pictures). Then add a half fluted rebated .44 cylinder and defarb and antique it and voila, there you have it, a hitherto unknown Confederate revolver that was made in the North.

I agree with your historical assessment, but until it can be proven that this is not a real original revolver, I won't toss it aside. After all, there are only 3 proven Schneider and Glassick revolvers in existence to my knowledge, 2 brassers and an iron framed one.

Pietta G&G revolvers are .36 caliber. Any Pietta .44 brasser is not a G&G, no matter the cat #, and I know that you know that. Insofar as defarbing, the Piettas have deep billboards on the barrel. Not good for this purpose.

If one just wants a BBQ gun/safe queen, this might be a better way. The pics are few and don't show much detail, but it looks to me as if the cylinder is not engraved. It is an older Navy Arms repro and, as such, the defarbing would be easier. Just find a machinist who can ball cut 6 flutes into the cylinder (probably $100 +/-), and the owner can perform judicious use of hand stamps to remark it. The bottom of the backstrap does not have a cutout for the shoulder stock, whereas the Pietta will.

I have a Q to the seller about the cylinder.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/739920454

Jim
 
Message from seller:

"The Cyl is plain, very authentic looking gun , really nice vintage holster, the reserve is $199.00"

There you go!

Jim
 
I agree with your historical assessment, but until it can be proven that this is not a real original revolver, I won't toss it aside. After all, there are only 3 proven Schneider and Glassick revolvers in existence to my knowledge, 2 brassers and an iron framed one.

Pietta G&G revolvers are .36 caliber. Any Pietta .44 brasser is not a G&G, no matter the cat #, and I know that you know that. Insofar as defarbing, the Piettas have deep billboards on the barrel. Not good for this purpose.
Jim

I would think that proof that the gun was authentic is what would be desired - not the other way around.

OK maybe "any Pietta .44 cal brasser with round dragoon style barrel" would have been better since everyone knows that all G&Gs are .36 Cal - tell that to Pietta, many gun dealers and sellers on Gun Broker that mis identify .44 cal models.
 
To sell this revolver on Gunbroker raises some questions also as does his 'return policy' listed as "No refunds or exchange"

Before purchase that revolver needs to be looked at and inspected in person before laying out the cash. Plus he has not provided or even mentions any Letter or Letters of Authenticity from any expert.

The price of $9,000.00 is a drop in the bucket to a collector but no collector would rely on this sketchy information prior to purchase. That in itself raises some questions. Knowing that any real collector wouldn't touch this thing prior to a hands on inspection or Letters of Documentation, who exactly is he looking for?
 
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We need to get one of the repro makers to remake this gun!! Who's in??

I'm very much against forgeries. Bill Edwards (dec.), author of Civil War Guns, wasn't above it. Anyhow, if I were to do it, I'd learn engraving and make my own stamp and harden it.
 
Upon closer inspection, the lettering on the top flats of the barrel doesn't look period, but quite modern.
 
Didn't Pietta used to make an 1860 Army .44 with a fantasy half-fluted cylinder? If you could find one of those then all you would need is a Pietta fantasy .44 G&G like fingers said and then switch the cylinders. You'd then have a proper Clement's & Gibbon's and a proper 1860 Army. Assuming the Clement's & Gibbon's is a real revolver, something of which I am skeptical.

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https://www.gunbroker.com/item/738858860
 
Didn't Pietta used to make an 1860 Army .44 with a fantasy half-fluted cylinder? If you could find one of those then all you would need is a Pietta fantasy .44 G&G like fingers said and then switch the cylinders. You'd then have a proper Clement's & Gibbon's and a proper 1860 Army. Assuming the Clement's & Gibbon's is a real revolver, something of which I am skeptical.

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https://www.gunbroker.com/item/738858860


I think they still make the fluted 1860. It isn't really a fantasy; Colt offered that option on a special order basis. I have an old book from the 1940s about c&b revolvers with a photo of one. I have no idea how many were actually made.
 
The stamping does look a bit crooked as though it was done with individual letter stamps but maybe it was done crudely in the 1800's!
This Pietta half fluted 1860 has been around several cycles on GB:
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/741623622
And here is an 1851 Pietta Reb .44 with dragoon barrel:
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/741771591
If I remember correctly the frames on the 1860 and 1851 .44 Piettas are the same so the cylinders may swap.
Some one can have their very own Clemont & Gibbons for $295 + $277 plus a set of stamps.
And recoup some of the cost by selling the remaining parts as a Pietta normal steel frame 1860.
 
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Here is a .36 caliber one on Armslist a while ago:
http://www.armslist.com/posts/19887...ders-for-sale--clements---gibbons-36-revolver

While the GB link in this thread from "The Black Powder Revolver Collecting Forum" from 2011 no longer works, read the third post down on page four by Smokin_Gun regarding a SN 27 Clements and Gibbons and Fingers McGee's rebuttal:
http://blackpowdersmoke.com/revolvers/index.php?topic=140.15;wap2
Deja Vu all over again, Fingers?
What are the chances of two SN 27's C&G's?
Am I just imagining it or do I see a Pietta tail on number 27???

Current GB#738858860 C&G SN 27 text:
"E016U, (MAKE AN OFFER) A very rare and obscure Confederate revolver of the Civil War, serial number 27 all matching. Sometimes referred to as; "the gun that never was", only a few ever made. Although it is stamped PATENT APPLIED FOR, no patent was ever found on it by North, or South. Both maker's show up in research as W.T. Clement who partnered with S Norris in the huge MASS firm which produced thousands of 1863-64 58 caliber rifled muskets, marked SN & WTC FOR MASSACHUSETTS. Thomas Gibbons was an independent gun maker of St Louis MO from 1859-65. How the 2 came together is unknown, much akin to the mystery of the CSA marked pin fire revolvers that came out of Connecticut. Nobody knows where/how they came to be, but nobody can deny their existence, age and authenticity either. Both did extremely great work with fine engineering and design. Given the small number of these made and even fewer of them remain today, it obviously never made it to full scale production before the end of the Civil War. The specimen employs the rebated cylinder of the M1860 Army and the fluted cylinder design of some Colt and foreign revolver in use to lighten weight without weakening chambers. Brass frame and brass trigger guard are consistent with other Confederate revolver designs and barrel design too. 13.25" long overall, steel surfaces bright, brass surfaces stained with corrosion, but sound. Very smooth pitting overall indicates this gun was once brown, but gently cleaned off. Screw head slots good, showing wear. All nipples fine, cylinder retains hammer rest pins. Good rifled bore, missing front sight bead only. All tight and crisp action, fully functional. Fine dark walnut grips. Due to it's obvious rarity (ditto the CSA pin fire revolvers ) and a host of other antique weapons which time has since forgotten. Therefore, none are mentioned in our history books. Anyways, here it is and it does exist and only a few upscale collections have one, no doubt. All original and complete, ship weight 4 pounds. Will be shipped via ***registered mail, so it can be fully insured*** SAFETY NOTICE: We do not sell firearms, only collectibles, if you shoot them it's at your own risk and we are not liable for anything you do."

2011 GB#227885310 C&G SN 27 text:
"CS Clemen, ts [ibid] & Gibbons" marked, .44 caliber percussion revolver, an obscure Confederate model of the Civil War, serial number 27 (all matching). Sometimes referred to as "the gun that never was," only a few are known, and although it is stamped, "patent applied for", no patent for this gun has ever been found, northern or southern. Makers show up in research as W.T. Clement (mispunctuated on the gun, should be "Clement's") who partnered with S. Norris in the huge Massachusetts firm which produced thousands of 1863-1864 .58 caliber rifled muskets, marked, S.N. & W.T.C. FOR MASSACHUSETTS. Thomas Gibbons was an independent gun maker of St. Louis, Missouri from 1859-1865. How they came together to produce this gun is not yet known. This is one of those anomalies which came out of the Civil War, similar to the CSA-marked pin-fire pocket revolvers that came out of Connecticut. No one knows where/how they came to be, but none can deny their existence, age and authenticity. The Clement's & Gibbons is extremely well engineered and designed (probably Clement's influence) and extremely well built (Gibbon's work). Given the small quantity and few survivors known, it obviously never reached full scale production before the war ended. It employs the rebated cylinder of the Colt M1860 Army, and the fluted cylinder design of some Colt (and some foreign) revolvers in use, to lighten weight without weakening the chambers. Brass frame and brass trigger guard are consistent with other Confederate revolver designs, barrel design as well. 13-1/2" long overall, steel surfaces bright, brass surfaces stained with corrosion but sound. Very smooth pitting overall indicates gun was once brown with patina, but gently cleaned off. Screwhead slots good, showing wear. All nipples fine, cylinder retains the hammer-rest pins. Good rifled bore, missing front sight bead only. All tight, crisp action, fully functional. Fine dark walnut grips. Because of its nebulous background and extreme rarity and lack of more information, this Civil War revolver is not listed anywhere in the history books. Neither is the CSA pin fire revolver, and the host of other antique weapons which time has forgotten. Anyway, here it is, it does exist, and very few collections have one. Now, you can, too ... and your collection will never be complete without it. Complete, as-is. Disclaimer: This collectible is an antique or antique reproduction. {My Boldface} Antiques and replicas of antiques are sold by us as collectors' items only, and any attempt to fire them is not recommended. We do not accept any liability if the buyer chooses to fire these antiques or replicas of antiques and does so at his own risk. ATTENTION GUN SHOP OWNERS: Our antique guns are exempt from registration and we will not participate in unnecessary registration of our guns by gun shop owners.

Current Bid $0.00 Reserve Not Met Started at $8,895.00
buy it now! for $9,300.00"
 
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I am not sure that this is the same seller.
Fingers - as you noted in your 2011 post, the 2011 seller had a disclaimer that it might be a reproduction and JPettit Antiques does not so list it.
JPettit is a pretty reputable dealer as far as I know.
I sent them a link to the old GB description and suggested they talk to their consignor about provenance to avoid any legal hassles.
 
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