National CCW for Police Passes Committee
- Thread starter shep854
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Deavis
Member
CCW is something best left to the states. The last time I checked the 18 enumerated powers of Congress, I didn't see anything in there that indicated they have the authority to create a law like this. I'm not trying to be too harsh, but seriously, what are they going to file this under, Interstate Commerce? Seriously, what power does Congress have to force the states to accept the carry of weapons by people of different states?
FedDC, I've read your posts before and I think your posts are the only ones that make me sick to my stomach. This isn't personal, but your opinions on law matters reinforces everything I despise about LEOs who think they are better than the citizens they serve.
damn right and when you are off-duty, you are one of us. That means it would give you carry rights, unless you think that you are a cop first and an ordinary peon second? It is a job, not a class.
This attitude is because you don't think you are one of us. As long as your dad can carry his 1911 and you can eat ice cream with your nephew, who cares what happens to the common folk, right? I could quote numerous posts to show the sort of attitude I am trying to highlight but I think this is enough.
Your views are exactly why people don't support LEO carry and not civilian carry. It just reinforces the gap between LEOs and citizens. Either honest law-abiding persons have the right to carry or they don't.
FedDC, I've read your posts before and I think your posts are the only ones that make me sick to my stomach. This isn't personal, but your opinions on law matters reinforces everything I despise about LEOs who think they are better than the citizens they serve.
damn right and when you are off-duty, you are one of us. That means it would give you carry rights, unless you think that you are a cop first and an ordinary peon second? It is a job, not a class.
Guess what, you chose to be a cop, quit whining about doing your job. You get paid to serve warrants and risk your life standing there waiting for the crackhead inside to grab his gun after you knocked. Don't like it, quit. Don't try to make people on here feel bad about it because you are afraid of the job you took.
This attitude is because you don't think you are one of us. As long as your dad can carry his 1911 and you can eat ice cream with your nephew, who cares what happens to the common folk, right? I could quote numerous posts to show the sort of attitude I am trying to highlight but I think this is enough.
Your views are exactly why people don't support LEO carry and not civilian carry. It just reinforces the gap between LEOs and citizens. Either honest law-abiding persons have the right to carry or they don't.
Police officers are never off duty. If an officer sees a crime in progress while off duty he is obligated to take some sort of police action. This does not neccessarily mean rush in head first with no vest, radio or backup, it could simply mean taking a detailed description of a crime and the suspect. If someone's life is in danger however, most guys that I know, including myself, would take action to protect someone else.
Is it really whining to want to be able to do your job with the best possible tools available and at all times? Police officers put themselves at risk for the safety of everyone. That doesn't mean that a non LEO has any less right to self defense, but how many of you actively go out seeking a situation to put yourselves in danger?
And you don't think that your attitude contributes in any way to him feeling the way he does? Facts of life are if you are treated differently you're gonna think you're different.
alan
Member
Dbl0Kevin:
Re your comment about how them antis work, a piece at a time, you are, of course, correct there.
Having said this, what then would you suggest "our side" do. Possibly oppose the anti's piecemeal, as with raising hell about this special privilege for retired police officers? I thought that that was what I had suggested.
My reference to repeal of existing legislation sought to raise a philisophical point, as follows. Let's do something that puts the anti's on the defensive, for a change.
By the way, re your reference to those with security clearances, once upon a time, I held a rather high level clearance. That was then, and this is now. At that time, I had access to all manner of "classified data", some of which was actually properly classified, and quite important. Currently I have no such access, and with good reason, for as the old saying goes, I have no need to know.
I submit that exactly the same situation exists respecting allowing former or retired police officers to carry concealed nationwide, when licensed, private citizens who were not previously involved in law enforcement cannot. It has absolutely nothing to do with capitalism, or the fact that the rich are different, or is it that they are treated differently?
Das Pferd:
Some of the worst gun handling that I have ever seen was perpetrated by "trained professionals", otherwise known as police officers. These people had no more business being armed than does my 3 year old nephew, yet they were armed.
Re your comment about how them antis work, a piece at a time, you are, of course, correct there.
Having said this, what then would you suggest "our side" do. Possibly oppose the anti's piecemeal, as with raising hell about this special privilege for retired police officers? I thought that that was what I had suggested.
My reference to repeal of existing legislation sought to raise a philisophical point, as follows. Let's do something that puts the anti's on the defensive, for a change.
By the way, re your reference to those with security clearances, once upon a time, I held a rather high level clearance. That was then, and this is now. At that time, I had access to all manner of "classified data", some of which was actually properly classified, and quite important. Currently I have no such access, and with good reason, for as the old saying goes, I have no need to know.
I submit that exactly the same situation exists respecting allowing former or retired police officers to carry concealed nationwide, when licensed, private citizens who were not previously involved in law enforcement cannot. It has absolutely nothing to do with capitalism, or the fact that the rich are different, or is it that they are treated differently?
Das Pferd:
Some of the worst gun handling that I have ever seen was perpetrated by "trained professionals", otherwise known as police officers. These people had no more business being armed than does my 3 year old nephew, yet they were armed.
I'm not suggesting that law-abiding permit holders shouldn't be able to carry across state lines, but as I said before one step at a time. The fact is that retired police officers have spent long careers locking up dangerous criminals. As most of you know our justice system does not always hold these criminals forever and as such the officers who arrested them and their familys can end up as a target for retaliation. Not many average citizens will be walking down the street and run across someone they put in jail and probably wasn't too happy about it.
Oh and if you think retaliation is far fetched, my own father once had a $5,000 bounty put on his head by a heroin dealer that he had arrested. There was an ambush set up for him on his way home from work one night. Thankfully because he was tactically sound he never went home the same way all the time and as fate had it the ambush was on the wrong road.
alan
Member
Dbl0Kevin:
Re the dangers of police weork, I grew up in NYC, and lived there for many years, having left in 1967, for reasons not germane to this discussion.
Anyhow, I knew a couple of people who were on the NYPD, one of them was a first grade detective in Brooklyn West Homicide. I used to hang around a small auito repair garage run by a fire dept. lieutenant. The detective I mentioned was a friend of the owner.
Anyhow, one day, in the course of a discussion on the relative dangers of the two jobs, fire fighting v. police work, Tom the detective offered the following, and mind this was in NYC.
"That the average cop, perhaps most cops could go through 20 years on the job, and never fire a shot in anger, nor be fired upon either".
While retired now, I worked in design and construction for years and years, having gone through a couple of chemical plant/oil refinery "process upsets" a polite word for explosions. Nobody was shooting at me either, however I've seen people all chewed up as a result of "process upsets". By the way, with oil refineries, the question was never, will the thing blow up, because that's what refineries do. It turns out that the question was WHEN and WHERE, as with when will it blow and where will I be when it does?
Re the dangers of police weork, I grew up in NYC, and lived there for many years, having left in 1967, for reasons not germane to this discussion.
Anyhow, I knew a couple of people who were on the NYPD, one of them was a first grade detective in Brooklyn West Homicide. I used to hang around a small auito repair garage run by a fire dept. lieutenant. The detective I mentioned was a friend of the owner.
Anyhow, one day, in the course of a discussion on the relative dangers of the two jobs, fire fighting v. police work, Tom the detective offered the following, and mind this was in NYC.
"That the average cop, perhaps most cops could go through 20 years on the job, and never fire a shot in anger, nor be fired upon either".
While retired now, I worked in design and construction for years and years, having gone through a couple of chemical plant/oil refinery "process upsets" a polite word for explosions. Nobody was shooting at me either, however I've seen people all chewed up as a result of "process upsets". By the way, with oil refineries, the question was never, will the thing blow up, because that's what refineries do. It turns out that the question was WHEN and WHERE, as with when will it blow and where will I be when it does?
JPM70535
Member
Being a retired LEO as well as a firm believer in the RKBA, I have mixed feelings as to any National CCW for LEOs, active or retired.
We already have the right to carry "Keep and Bear Arms" Nationwide, although to try and exercise this right would most certainly result in more troubles than most of us are willing to cope with.
From a personal perspective I have to admit that I would not be opposed to a law that enabled me as a retired LEO to carry Nationwide. While not a solution to the RKBA, it would at least establish a precedent to be used in future arguments for National carry.
One short thought on the comments made by several posters that there is no difference between LEOs and the rest of us. LEOs (Not including Rookies) constantly demonstrate their ability to face high stress situations without resorting to use of deadly force. Their skill levels with the weapons they carry are regularly examined (Requals) and mental fittness is constantly observed and evaluated. Who evaluates the Civilian CCWer? There most definitely is a difference between LEOs and the rest of us.
We already have the right to carry "Keep and Bear Arms" Nationwide, although to try and exercise this right would most certainly result in more troubles than most of us are willing to cope with.
From a personal perspective I have to admit that I would not be opposed to a law that enabled me as a retired LEO to carry Nationwide. While not a solution to the RKBA, it would at least establish a precedent to be used in future arguments for National carry.
One short thought on the comments made by several posters that there is no difference between LEOs and the rest of us. LEOs (Not including Rookies) constantly demonstrate their ability to face high stress situations without resorting to use of deadly force. Their skill levels with the weapons they carry are regularly examined (Requals) and mental fittness is constantly observed and evaluated. Who evaluates the Civilian CCWer? There most definitely is a difference between LEOs and the rest of us.
fix
Member
Kindly point out exactly where that difference is spelled out in the text of the 2nd Amendment.
lostone1413
Member
- Joined
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The bottom line is they want to give the right to carry in any state to people who the majority think the common citizen shouldn't be allowed to have a hand gun let alone carry one. All you have to do is look and see who their union backs and remember it if the rank and file that puts them in office. One more thing they would want you to thinnk that a LEO is more law abiding then 95% of the citizens out their that is a big mistake because the percentage of good citizens is just as high if not higher then the percentage of honest LEOs
How about
The fact that LEO Certification isn't the same in every state? I know here in Iowa for example you arent qualified or considered certified unless you were certified a certain time frame ago? I don't think every state has the same POST certs either?
Ok my drivers license is recognized in every state, now badges? Someone tell me the difference and why they can just all of a sudden pass law saying so?
Thing that bother me is this is further propigating the belief that only cops are qualified to handle guns. We say this is a step towards everyone having it but no, they will look at all the "accidents" that the cops have and say - Look the police can't even do it safely all the time, we cant trust citizens then -EVER
ahh I am so PO'd I can't type straight
The fact that LEO Certification isn't the same in every state? I know here in Iowa for example you arent qualified or considered certified unless you were certified a certain time frame ago? I don't think every state has the same POST certs either?
Ok my drivers license is recognized in every state, now badges? Someone tell me the difference and why they can just all of a sudden pass law saying so?
Thing that bother me is this is further propigating the belief that only cops are qualified to handle guns. We say this is a step towards everyone having it but no, they will look at all the "accidents" that the cops have and say - Look the police can't even do it safely all the time, we cant trust citizens then -EVER
ahh I am so PO'd I can't type straight
Speak up LEO
In public and outside of your employment or employee orgs.
Why don't you speak up for every one's right. Make this a non issue.
NY IL CA NJ are just a few of the states that need reforms in RKBA direction.
I know LEOs and have a lot of respect for the job. I'ts a job I will not endeavor into purposslly.
I do though expect civility and respect in kind.
Any LEOs taking THR and speaking up in front of the people who need to see it? Hope this rant will end.
In public and outside of your employment or employee orgs.
Why don't you speak up for every one's right. Make this a non issue.
NY IL CA NJ are just a few of the states that need reforms in RKBA direction.
I know LEOs and have a lot of respect for the job. I'ts a job I will not endeavor into purposslly.
I do though expect civility and respect in kind.
Any LEOs taking THR and speaking up in front of the people who need to see it? Hope this rant will end.
Sam Adams
Member
Ideally, there would be no need for any concealed carry laws, and we could all act like we lived in Vermont or Alaska and really be free. However, since it has become generally accepted that obtaining a permit to exercise a Constitutionally-protected right is necessary, the laws MUST be applied using concepts of equality under the law. That's why
is dead wrong. The police are not some kind of super-citizens, even when on active duty. To codify that even a retired cop (i.e. a civilian) should get some type of special treatment because of a job they once held is an abomination.
Shep854, with respect I believe that you're wrong. This will NOT be a first step, but the last on the federal level. There is NO WAY that the Congress is going to pass a national concealed carry bill for all citizens after a few years - those representing the big cities and the anti states won't allow it - and such a bill would be filibustered to death in the Senate as long as there were at least 40 antis there (and there are at least 52, based on the AWB vote this past March).
Nope, Shep, I must disagree. I know that you're on our side, but this is one piece of bait that we shouldn't go after. Regarding CCH/CHL, I'd rather wait a few more years to see more reciprocity among the states (plus more states with mandatory issuance of licenses), and to get another state's license to broaden my area of carry than to see a class of super-citizens designated under federal law.
is dead wrong. The police are not some kind of super-citizens, even when on active duty. To codify that even a retired cop (i.e. a civilian) should get some type of special treatment because of a job they once held is an abomination.
Shep854, with respect I believe that you're wrong. This will NOT be a first step, but the last on the federal level. There is NO WAY that the Congress is going to pass a national concealed carry bill for all citizens after a few years - those representing the big cities and the anti states won't allow it - and such a bill would be filibustered to death in the Senate as long as there were at least 40 antis there (and there are at least 52, based on the AWB vote this past March).
Nope, Shep, I must disagree. I know that you're on our side, but this is one piece of bait that we shouldn't go after. Regarding CCH/CHL, I'd rather wait a few more years to see more reciprocity among the states (plus more states with mandatory issuance of licenses), and to get another state's license to broaden my area of carry than to see a class of super-citizens designated under federal law.
Aguila Blanca
Member
Sorry, but I believe you are mistaken. You may be considered to be on duty anywhere within ghr state (or county) in which you are sworn (this depends on state laws), but once you cross out of your jurisdiction you are not an LEO and you have no more obligation to intervene than any other private citizen.
Aguila Blanca
Member
Now fast rewind to the case last year in which the CHIEF of the Tacoma PD shot and mortally wounded his estranged wife, then sot and killed himself -- with his duty weapon. In my own state there have been several cases within the past year of active duty LEOs beating up their girlfriends, assaulting their wives, as well as the occasional sexual tryst in the community substation while on duty. And these are supposed to be those who can handle stress better than I, who enforce the laws that I am supposed to obey whether or not I agree with them, and who y'all apparently feel are far better qualified than poor little me, who is nothing other than an average, middle-aged citizen (qualified in the miltary on an assortment of weapons and a former military competition shooter).
Why am I not convinced?
TimW
Member
Dbl0Kevin
I complain all the time about it. We should be able to own all the same small arms equipment the military does. Period. If a soldier carries it, we should be allowed to own it.
I complain all the time about it. We should be able to own all the same small arms equipment the military does. Period. If a soldier carries it, we should be allowed to own it.
Shovelhead
Member
I know I'll feel much safer in Virginia after the Washington DC cops are allowed to "carry" outside of their juristiction.........at least those who aren't in jail......yet.
Ed
Ed
Hawk, Come on now, compared to the number of LEOs on the job, the % of them that make mystakes and or commit crimes is very very small...and you can bet that it will get a mountain of attention when one of us is arrested, even for a minor charge. I have seen several guys with CCWs arrested, two while they were carrying (not for carrying) and neither event made the news...but it did stack up the charges. There will always be a few idiots that have bad judgement but I think the point was that yes, LEOs as a group are far more screened and better trained than your average guy that just guys a gun and then considers himself a gunfighter. I know that in my case, I had to get a 2k$$ physical, meet with a psych, take a poly, go through a full backgound investigation including every job I had ever had and every place I had ever lived (They did talk to every neighbor) and just to top it off, they did the investigation a second time after I got on the job. That is way way way more screening than any CCW permit holder will ever go through.
Then, top that off with 6 months of training on laws, use of force, stress management, defensive tactics, using different levels of force etc. and you can see how someone would say that LEOs are much better trained and prepared to carry a weapon.
And, just to polish it off, add in the on the job experience of actually pulling that weapon on duty which most of us do on a regular basis. The exerience of having to pull a gun on another person with the intent to use it can not be replicated by reading SWAT Magazine or going to a CCW class and it is invaluable when it comes to carrying a pistol. Many LEOs do that daily.
Having said all of the above, I do look forward to the day that universal CCW is passed for all of us, but until then I see it as a good idea for us top get a foot in the door with LEO CCW.
Have any of you guys that are complaining thought about joining your local reserve program? It may be a way to circumvent the LEO only requirement if this passes?
Then, top that off with 6 months of training on laws, use of force, stress management, defensive tactics, using different levels of force etc. and you can see how someone would say that LEOs are much better trained and prepared to carry a weapon.
And, just to polish it off, add in the on the job experience of actually pulling that weapon on duty which most of us do on a regular basis. The exerience of having to pull a gun on another person with the intent to use it can not be replicated by reading SWAT Magazine or going to a CCW class and it is invaluable when it comes to carrying a pistol. Many LEOs do that daily.
Having said all of the above, I do look forward to the day that universal CCW is passed for all of us, but until then I see it as a good idea for us top get a foot in the door with LEO CCW.
Have any of you guys that are complaining thought about joining your local reserve program? It may be a way to circumvent the LEO only requirement if this passes?
biere
Member
Stick my vote in the no way section.
Can'thavenuthingood
Member
Until they amend it to include CCW for retired Marines also, I'm against it.
Okay, if they include all retiree's, I could be for that.
Issue the CCW with your first pension, social security check.
Gy Vick
Okay, if they include all retiree's, I could be for that.
Issue the CCW with your first pension, social security check.
Gy Vick
alan
Member
Re the "inherent virtue" of the fuzz, I didn't quite catch the entire story, there was mention on a news broadcast today, yes, I'm fully aware that "media" often does not get the facts straight, of the LAPD having, once again, stepped on it's collective dick, respecting the beating of a black male by an officer using a large flashlight.
There have been a number of other examples of questionable actions involving LA and California cops, as well as those of other parts of the country too, so respecting all this hogwash about the "trained professional" an example of which we all saw in the performance of the FBI in Miami a few years back, give me a break please.
Also, note the following. I shoot IPSC competition, admittedly far removed from the real world, it being simply a game played with real guns, where I shoot either Limited 10 or Production, sometimes revolver, no "race guns" or anthing particularly fancy.
Now and then, we've had police officers join in, trained professionals if you will. Respecting the way some of then handle their issue handguns, they have no more business carrying arms than does my three year old nephew. Additionally, some of the above mentioned couldn't even shoot straight. I remember one in particular, he was a Pittsburgh PA. city cop. The stage we were shooting was "revolver neutral", that is 6 shots were fired at three targets, 2 on each, mandatory reload, with 6 more shots fired at the same three targets, a total of 12 rounds. This fellow was using his "duty rig", and a 38 caliber revolver. He fired the first 6 shots, ejected 6 empties, and stood there, speed loader in hand, acting as if he hadn't been formerly introduced to this strange looking woman. This folks is supposedly going to "serve and protect" me. Give me a break.
The foregoing is not to say that one never sees civilians doing something silly with firearms, but remember this, they are CIVILIANS, they aren't any of those TRAINED PROFESSIONALS we hear so much about, people who, in the last analysis, are human, exactly like the rest of us.
There have been a number of other examples of questionable actions involving LA and California cops, as well as those of other parts of the country too, so respecting all this hogwash about the "trained professional" an example of which we all saw in the performance of the FBI in Miami a few years back, give me a break please.
Also, note the following. I shoot IPSC competition, admittedly far removed from the real world, it being simply a game played with real guns, where I shoot either Limited 10 or Production, sometimes revolver, no "race guns" or anthing particularly fancy.
Now and then, we've had police officers join in, trained professionals if you will. Respecting the way some of then handle their issue handguns, they have no more business carrying arms than does my three year old nephew. Additionally, some of the above mentioned couldn't even shoot straight. I remember one in particular, he was a Pittsburgh PA. city cop. The stage we were shooting was "revolver neutral", that is 6 shots were fired at three targets, 2 on each, mandatory reload, with 6 more shots fired at the same three targets, a total of 12 rounds. This fellow was using his "duty rig", and a 38 caliber revolver. He fired the first 6 shots, ejected 6 empties, and stood there, speed loader in hand, acting as if he hadn't been formerly introduced to this strange looking woman. This folks is supposedly going to "serve and protect" me. Give me a break.
The foregoing is not to say that one never sees civilians doing something silly with firearms, but remember this, they are CIVILIANS, they aren't any of those TRAINED PROFESSIONALS we hear so much about, people who, in the last analysis, are human, exactly like the rest of us.
Ok, if you want to throw some mud as far as bad gun handling goes, I can sling some your way with a mountain of stories about non LEOs too, but I doubt that it is going to change anyone's mind. Don't say that all cops can't shoot just because you saw one fumble a reload or because some FBI Agents in the 1980s had problems in a gunfight. As a whole, LEOs receive much more training than your average CCW holder. That is a simple fact. Some LEOs stop at the minimum and others go on to advanced training as I have done just as some CCW holders spend their time and money to train as you have. Both are commendable, but neither is a basis for a sweeping generalization.
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