Testing the trigger on rifles, true test or not?

It's valid in my opinion. There IS a possibility of a rifle being droped like that. It's also one of the checks I use when adjusting a trigger.

The old savage 110 trigger while extremely easy to adjust, is not safe at low pull weights, and short engagements. There are some things you can do that help, but at the end of the day there's quite a bit of slop in the mechanism, and the tension spring just isn't ment for that low a pull weight.

Mine would fail that test at anything below about 4 lbs, unless the sear engagement was set at Max. Remington 700s usually fail that somewhere below about 2lbs, again you can increase engagement and keep it from happing longer. Haven't gone looking for bottom line on other actions.

My two savages (both newer accutriggers, one centerfire, one rimfire) will both click if you bump the butt on the floor firmly enough, but they would not go off because the accutrigger blade stops the sear movement. Both of them are stoned with very light springs and trigger weights under 1 lb. The rimfire is actually probably 8 ounces but I can't measure it. This is one of my standard test after doing a trigger job on a rifle. I drop them on the butt onto a rubber mat that does no damage to the rifle.

I'm okay with a target rifle falling off the sear when dropped from a couple feet, but not if its barely bumped like if it dropped 6 inches on the butt. But I will not accept that on a hunting rifle. If I'm going hunting with it I better not be able to make it go off with any reasonable bumping, dropping, or jostling.

I butt bump after tuning any trigger, including sidearms. I suppose dropping the striker/hammer would be ok for a bench-only target gun, but I don't want a trigger that fails that test.

Well, I am not sure what your test was testing unless it was whether or not the gun could discharge if dropped on the butt from that height. If so, it is "a" valid test. It is but one test, however. The potential is there that the gun will fire with a lateral impact and/or frontal impact as well. Since the test was only from one height, the test did not determine if the gun would be discharged from a lesser height/lesser impact.

There are a couple of well-known test protocols used by many firearms manufacturers when designing and testing new firearms. ANSI/SAAMI Z299.5-1996 and TOP 03-2-504A both describe drop tests from 4 feet (to CG) and 5 feet respectively, but in both cases the firearms are dropped in the "safe carrying condition" i.e. safety on. TOP 03-2-504A is a US Army test document related to hand and shoulder fired weapons and they don't drop test a rifle with the safety off. The Army does drop the weapon with different starting orientations as does the SAAMI/ANSI test, but SAAMI/ANSI goes even further and mentions minimal trigger pull force as specified by the manufacturer, min and max configuration weights, fully loaded magazines etc. I don't know of any industry drop testing of rifles with the safety off.

My gf has an FN rifle with the old Winchester style trigger and I had to adjust it to prevent it from releasing with minimal impact on the butt of the rifle. The trigger was around 1.5 lb and now is around 2.5 lb. From what I've read, the old Winchester trigger is well-known for "bumping off" when adjusted below 2 lb. Personally I like 3 lb to 3.5 lb on a single-stage trigger and 2.5lb followed by 1.5lb on a two-stage trigger.

Another one that I recommend especially on old milsurps. With an unloaded gun, work the action, and put the safety on. Pull the trigger, and then release, and then move the safety back to the 'Fire' position.

I had a Yugo M48 Mauser that was 100% unmodified original. I personally cleaned all the cosmoline off. And it would drop the firing pin if you pulled the trigger with the safety on, and then took the safety off.

A gunsmith fixed the trigger for me. Not sure what he did.

I would not want to own a rifle that would fire from a butt bump even if it took an extremely hard bump to set the rifle off. I have a few bench rest rifles with nice light after market triggers... None of them have gone off when I test them by bumping the butt on a floor.

I would replace the trigger with a quality after market trigger if a satisfactory trigger pull can not be achieved by adjusting the factory trigger to the desired weight AND keep it from firing when bumped on the floor. I can't fathom not fixing a rifle in such a condition before putting a single round of ammo in it.

The jar off test is pretty standard fare for the kitchen table smiff but it won’t tell you everything. There are plenty of well designed triggers that will trip with a good enough whack which is a good indication that they could use a bit more engagement or spring force (or both) to make them safer. No firearm is safe, that is decidedly a function of the user. Simply failing the test does not discount a trigger as defective or poorly designed.

There's nothing wrong with a trigger that will do that, just that it's not appropriate for all rifles. My hunting rifles are all between 3 and 5 lbs, will "pass" that test. Varmint and target guns are a different story, with triggers as light as 8 oz. But the latter aren't carried through the woods with a round in the chamber; they are used almost exclusively from bench or prone positions, and not loaded except in those positions.

IndianaBoy said:

A gunsmith fixed the trigger for me. Not sure what he did.

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I have fixed this problem by swapping out sears and cocking pieces, and, improved things by using a stronger mainspring. The trigger sear surface and the cocking piece surface have to be angled so that they push each other into a safe condition. The angle is tiny, I can't measure it. Those surfaces often have to be stoned, (you will ruin several before you get the trick) or, swapped out with parts that work. ( I recommend this) I bought multiple sets of triggers, sears, cocking pieces for Mausers, Nagants, and Mausers, and played around with the different combinations until the triggers were safe and I had a good second stage release. It is often surprising how often a new mainspring will fix things.

MikeInOr said:

I would not want to own a rifle that would fire from a butt bump even if it took an extremely hard bump to set the rifle off. I have a few bench rest rifles with nice light after market triggers... None of them have gone off when I test them by bumping the butt on a floor.

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I agree. I don't want a trigger mechanism that will jar off. I know there are reasonable limits, like dropping the rifle from 30,000 feet out of an airplane, and expecting the mechanism not to jar off, that would be unreasonable. But, falling off a table, that is very realistic, and I would expect some margin above that. Guns should only go bang when you want them to go bang.

I used to work for a Smith who was a really good trigger guy. He wouldn't let a trigger out of his shop if it failed a reasonable butt stock bump test for the type of rifle it was. That doesn't mean he wouldn't take a trigger down pretty low, it just meant that he would do the job right.. If, after a trigger job, the trigger failed a bump test, he would remove mass from the trigger, change the sear engagement or spring weight. He knew based on experience how far the factory triggers of various models could be taken down before they would be unsafe or need to be replaced with a full on target model trigger.... I've never seen anyone get better feeling triggers from stock trigger components and still be safe and long lasting... He's retired now but I still have several of his trigger jobs in my gun collection, they still feel great and I've never had a problem with them for years.. The trigger jobs he did on his personal Colt Python (single and double action) and 1911's were amazing...

Buy a quality 2 stage trigger, they can render an effective low 2nd stage while still being safe to handle.

Geissele is coming out with a drop safe 2 stage for the Remington 700 and compatible actions.

Accuracy International equips their rifles with 2 stage triggers too.

The single stage trigger is for bench guns. Real rifles should get a 2 stage.

Coal Dragger said:

Buy a quality 2 stage trigger, they can render an effective low 2nd stage while still being safe to handle.

Geissele is coming out with a drop safe 2 stage for the Remington 700 and compatible actions.

Accuracy International equips their rifles with 2 stage triggers too.

The single stage trigger is for bench guns. Real rifles should get a 2 stage.

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No thanks

Your loss.

What's the advantage to a two stage.
Admittedly the only ones I've used are the howa hact and a few on air rifles. Basically they just felt like a long take up to the point the trigger would break.
Is it that the longer trigger reduces the chance of an accidental discharge?

The military bolt guns ive used that had them were not particularly nice to use, but judicious polishing smothed them out enough to make them fairly easy to shoot.

If you can shoot a stock Mosin trigger you can shoot anything.

Double Naught Spy said:

Well, I am not sure what your test was testing unless it was whether or not the gun could discharge if dropped on the butt from that height. If so, it is "a" valid test. It is but one test, however. The potential is there that the gun will fire with a lateral impact and/or frontal impact as well. Since the test was only from one height, the test did not determine if the gun would be discharged from a lesser height/lesser impact.

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Not using this method. Scopes could be broken or mis-calibrated, for example. Just have so many things to do, figuring out the correct
"accidental drop firing height" for my guns just isn't on the list.

Danoobie said:

Not using this method. Scopes could be broken or mis-calibrated, for example. Just have so many things to do, figuring out the correct
"accidental drop firing height" for my guns just isn't on the list.

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I would never do that test with the scope on the gun.

I usually use a rubber mallet to whack the stock instead of banging it on the floor. But the question of how hard to bang is a valid one. Some wise old smartass told me that you should be able to bang it hard enough to break the stock without tripping the trigger. But then you'd need a new stock ... And you'd have to bang that one too ...

LoonWulf said:

What's the advantage to a two stage.
Admittedly the only ones I've used are the howa hact and a few on air rifles. Basically they just felt like a long take up to the point the trigger would break.
Is it that the longer trigger reduces the chance of an accidental discharge?

The military bolt guns ive used that had them were not particularly nice to use, but judicious polishing smothed them out enough to make them fairly easy to shoot.

If you can shoot a stock Mosin trigger you can shoot anything.

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So you've never used a good one is what you are telling me.

A good two stage trigger allows you to maintain nice positive sere engagement surfaces that are large enough to provide a high degree of safety from undesired discharge, while at the same time rendering a light to very light sere release on the 2nd stage due to the design of the trigger mechanism.

For example the Geissele 2 stage trigger depending on variant will usually offer a 2 pound first stage that takes up the majority of the actual sere travel, due to the high degree of care in manufacturing this first stage is smooth as glass. Upon reaching the end of the first stage, the trigger by design will not release the sere until an additional spring is overcome that is not loaded until the initial travel has been taken out. This second stage is nominally an additional 2 pounds or lighter, and is a crisp consistent break. They also offer lighter 2 stage units, typically with the 2nd stage being lighter down to around 1.5 pounds. Because most of the sere travel has occurred at this point the 2nd stage trigger travel is very short, just like a single stage trigger.

What the shooter feels or perceives is a trigger that smoothly takes up to where the sere will break, and a very light crisp trigger once you take up that slack and get to the "wall" of the 2nd stage. Because of this the trigger will feel much lighter than it actually is, and in reality it might as well be from a marksmanship standpoint since you are not fighting with the total trigger weight all at once to overcome the sere travel needed to break the shot. So while a 4.5lb single stage trigger will feel oppressively heavy, a 4.5lb 2 stage can feel phenomenal when set up correctly because what you perceive and what you really get is a trigger that breaks with the weight of the take-up which you won't even notice and then a crisp let off with another 2 pounds of pressure. So it feels like a crisp 2 pound trigger, makes the rifle perform like it has a 2 pound trigger, but has a safety margin like a 4.5lb trigger.

In all honesty at this point I shoot 2 stage triggers better than I do single stage triggers, I find the first stage of take up and super predictable "wall" of the second stage allow me to consistently break shots when I want to. Anyone who has shot very light single stage triggers has experienced the hated shot where you are refining your sight picture and the gun goes bang while you were trying to start building pressure on the trigger.

When shooting quickly, there is no real performance difference outside of gun games between the two, just press through the trigger.

Bill G. himself will explain:

Thanks, I was curious about the higher end triggers for ars but never got around to trying one. I'm done with ARs for now, so I might have to try one on this new 700 i picked up.

The Hact trigger actually felt pretty good, as did the two stage on some of the competition airguns I've used, but I didn't really notice any difference in feel on the actual brake. That may have just been the way they were set tho.

I use the bump method when I do trigger work too. I use it as a failsafe. The safety should not come off until me and my firearm is safely and solidly braced and im ready to destroy my target so the bump should never come into play unless it fires with the safety on. If I fail to do my job correctly, then the "bump" failsafe is there to protect me and others.

It's not a clear cut method and is more subjective as to how much bump is acceptable. Most all guns will fail at some point of sudden force to the buttstock with the safety off, how much force is subjective. Some say from table height, what about avg tree stand height for hunting rifles?

A decently stiff bump will satisfy me but may not some of you. I May bump mine a little harder than others too, so that's what I mean. It's not an end all be all method to a poor trigger design or weight because the safety should keep the AD from happening. I view it more as a way to keep my mistakes from being dangerous as in having the safety off before I should have and then dropping the gun or tripping and falling down etc.