The .44 Special threads reminded me...

Bones741 said:

I'm guilty of that, the community around here has been great and full of knowledge and really help e broaden my interests in shooting. I think it's time to do some reading.

Click to expand...

Just finishing reading some of Keith's books for the 2nd or 3rd time. Excellent stuff even though he didn't like cats or eagles. Can't say i ever lost a kid due to cat stealing his breath. Had to be there, I guess.

Most of your questions will be answered by reading the Brian Pearce articles. He gives data for three different power levels, more than enough detail to find a load to do what needs done.

35 Whelen said:

Craig and Bones are correct; Elmer Keith didn't blow up any .44 Specials.

Click to expand...

I stand corrected and fell for reading faulty information.

It appears the old balloon head cases were a great limitation to both 45 Colt and 44 Special improved pressure levels. The following is a good read, assuming it is accurate. Several folks were instrumental in the development of the 44 Magnum.

http://revivaler.com/smith-wesson-model-29-44-magnum-elmer-keith/

Mixed Nuts said:

describes a load that seems more suited to a GP100 in .44 special. Specifically, 7.5 grains of Unique under a 250 grain cast bullet.

Yet even that load overreaches all my loading data by a full grain - or very nearly so.

Click to expand...

That was my standard target and competition load for a while in my 4.2" Ruger Redhawk. I would, in no way consider this is a "Ruger-only" load. I would not consider this even a "hot" load. This past season I changed up to a 200 grn cast lead that I would also not consider a hot rod load. If your manuals do not list loads as high as 7.5 grains of Unique for 44 special, discard them.

Mixed Nuts said:

get to thinking that the new Ruger, 5 Shot, 5” .44 Special shooting a 240 or 250 grain bullet at 1050 FPS or so, would be a great, compact and heavy hitting hiking gun,

Click to expand...

A 44 special is not a "great hiking gun" unless you're hiking in Detroit. I live in Alaska where I spend most of the summer and fall outdoors-mostly fishing or hunting in bear infested areas. I carry a 44 Magnum with 312 grn cast lead and 22 grns of H110. 1600 fps. If nt that, it's a 305 grn HSM Bear load. Some fellow Alaskans think I'm less than adequately armed for hiking in the woods.

Before you say "I don't have bears where I live" I say to you: great, then you don't need a 44 anything. Carry a 357, it will put down most wild animals and any evil bipeds you're apt to cross while hiking in the lesser 48.

If I may be so bold, I think you're overthinking this.

Mixed Nuts said:

Except for that one S&W – I think the 629 – the .44 mags are all bigger guns and more weight to pack.

Click to expand...

My 4.2" Redhawk weighs 47 oz empty. The Gp100 in 44 special with 5" half lug barrel weighs 38 oz empty. Having been a ling distance backpacker years ago I know the value of cutting 9 oz out of a pack. However, in this case, given the added power and one extra round in the cylinder, I would advise carrying the extra 9 oz (plus about an extra 315 grns of the 6th cartridge.)


Besides, if you were really concerned about weight, you'd either carry a Taurus Tracker at 34 oz, or bear spray at about 14 oz.

I'm thinking that the N frame Triple lock Smith was introduced as a 44 Special. Older guns were not heat treated for heavy loads. The result is ordinary factory ammo is mild. My 624 will do Setter Skelton level loads with ease. Also,my elderly Model 29 four screw shoots very well with the heaver 44 Special loads. For the 44 Magnum loads there a perfectly good Super Blackhawk here.The old Charter Arms Bulldog worked very well. That was not a good gun to hot rod. Had several of them over the years.

D.B. Cooper said:

That was my standard target and competition load for a while in my 4.2" Ruger Redhawk. I would, in no way consider this is a "Ruger-only" load. I would not consider this even a "hot" load. This past season I changed up to a 200 grn cast lead that I would also not consider a hot rod load. If your manuals do not list loads as high as 7.5 grains of Unique for 44 special, discard them.

Click to expand...

The 7.5gr "Skeeter" load is an overload according to most manuals. Not much but still over. There are no "Ruger only" loads in anything but .45Colt.

D.B. Cooper said:

A 44 special is not a "great hiking gun" unless you're hiking in Detroit. I live in Alaska where I spend most of the summer and fall outdoors-mostly fishing or hunting in bear infested areas. I carry a 44 Magnum with 312 grn cast lead and 22 grns of H110. 1600 fps. If nt that, it's a 305 grn HSM Bear load. Some fellow Alaskans think I'm less than adequately armed for hiking in the woods.

Click to expand...

Nonsense. Most of us do not live in Alaska, or anywhere where brown bears are a factor. However, it's worth pointing out that the .44Spl's legend was born in brown bear country. While it's not my first choice, one could hardly consider themselves unarmed in brown bear country with a .44Spl and the Keith load.

D.B. Cooper said:

Carry a 357, it will put down most wild animals and any evil bipeds you're apt to cross while hiking in the lesser 48.

Click to expand...

Velocity never makes up for diameter and mass in a handgun. The beauty of the .44Spl is that a larger, heavier bullet does a better, more consistent job without the muzzle blast associated with the .357.

D.B. Cooper said:

My 4.2" Redhawk weighs 47 oz empty. The Gp100 in 44 special with 5" half lug barrel weighs 38 oz empty. Having been a ling distance backpacker years ago I know the value of cutting 9 oz out of a pack. However, in this case, given the added power and one extra round in the cylinder, I would advise carrying the extra 9 oz (plus about an extra 315 grns of the 6th cartridge.)

Click to expand...

Sorry but Alaska is one of few places where a .44Mag actually makes more sense for a woods bummin' cartridge. Where the added weight and effectiveness would be worth considering. I've taken large game with the .44Mag and know full well what it's capable of but the .44Spl is simply a better option for general purpose use. Even when I do carry a .44Mag for general purpose use, it's with a .44Mag equivalent to the Keith .44Spl load.

Why carry something of this class all the time?

Ro

Mixed Nuts said:

Your post makes me consider why I have this dilemma. And I haven't been thinking about bears - at least not primarily. The ones around here don't seem to be too big - although I don't really know.

I suppose it's a matter of weight, utility, and trajectory. These things considered together. Lyman and Lee have very anemic max loads for the .44 special and this makes the 5 shot GP100 look like a house gun. Shooting a 250 grain bullet at max velocities in the medium to high 700 fps range means lobbing the bullet at any longer ranges. Yet that same bullet edging over 1050 starts to reach out nicely and would likely still be fun to practice with.

Another thing I like about the .44 special. Is that there are a lot of low power loads tested. In the case that I was scrounging lead. I could, in a pinch, have a limited, but decent gun shooting softer lead in these slower power ranges. Not ideal, but more inspiring than the .38 special.

Your post about bears gets me thinking a bit. I've never hunted, but I have killed and butchered rather a lot of livestock. And I've killed more than a dozen cattle - all steers or bulls - heritage breeds in the 500 to 700 pound range. And I killed them all with a .22 long rifle HPs. I'd shoot them in the forehead, and nearly all went down shuddering, and then I'd close in and cut their throats down to the spine. I'm not saying a .22 is a bear gun. It's not. But since my farm days I haven't worried about bears the way some people do. But then, I'm not in Alaska either. And if I was, I'd probably do what you do.

I probably wouldn't buy a Taurus. Had one when I was a kid. After about 12 shots, it would lock up. I always assumed the cylinder got hot and expanded to pinch the frame.

Click to expand...

It sounds like ya want a 44 special,so just go for it. Bunch on enablers around here,probably won't tell you not to get one lol. Not to mention who knows how long Ruger will make the new half lugs for?

A 250gr Keith at 950fps (Skeeter load) will shoot clear through any deer that walks. Don't need a lot of velocity to be effective with a cast bullet.

On a related side note...

I was at my local gun club this afternoon, where the was a guy shooting 3-4 revolvers, all in 44 special.

We got to talking, and he let me shoot his Ruger GP100, 5-shot 44 special. (This was my first time handling one.) It's a really really nice revolver! I watched him shoot it a bit and immediately thought "that's a lot of muzzle flip," but when I shot it, it was indistinguishable from my Redhawk. I did notice that the grip was smaller, however, I quickly put Pachmyer gris on mine, and the grip on this GP100 was better than the original Hogue grip on my Redhawk. The most noticeable difference was that it felt significantly lighter (and smaller.)

It still wouldn't be my 1st choice for backpacking up here in Alaska, but everywhere else, I could see it being a dandy. Ive changed my whole perspective on that gun/caliber package.

As mentioned earlier, heavier 44 Special loads come down to determining the guns which will handle the pressures. Modern (1970's and later) S&W 44 Specials are the same as their 44 Magnum kin. Same material and heat treat cylinder, same frame, slightly longer barrel intrusion into the frame window, shorter cylinder and a lighter barrel, otherwise, same gun, less weight. Some 624's were slightly deep chambered and would chamber and fire a 44 Magnum round with an OAL short enough to allow the cylinder to close and turn. S&W stated it would be safe to fire 44 Magnums in those guns since the guns are essentially the same.

I have a Horton 3" 624 and have used heavier, though not magnum class, loads in it. Didn't loosen, etc. I don't shoot it much anymore, I shoot standard to warm loads when I do, but I would never doubt its strength if I wanted to shoot top end 44 Special heavy loads through it. I have 44 Magnums for heavy power levels when I need or desire them.

I had found my 624 in a pawn shop many years ago. Generally, my loads are standard. However, I do not see any problem with loading to Skeeter level loads. How about some Buffalo Bore rounds for +P's for 44 Special. Wonder what level loads the +P's are? Right, of the handguns discussed in this thread most are offered chambered for 44 Magnum. What's the problem with loading heavier loads for these guns.? I'm personally not comfortable shooting consistently heavy loads in the 624. That's personal not about the gun. Generally, keep some heavier loads handy here in the house.

My 624 may be the same one that had floating around town for years. The original owner had, in a fever, bought the gun as a Model 29. It's probably the best $185.00 gun I've gotten-ever.

Back in the day I shot Bullseye with my 624 briefly . My loads were made with Unique and the Lyman 429383 cast from wheel weight alloy.. This bullet , a 245 grain round nose, was designed for target use. That bullet was not a facsimile of the original bullet. The 624 was used until replaced with a 1911. The 624 gave excellent accuracy. The problem had to do with ten and twenty second strings.. Today most of the shooting is done using the Lyman 429421 bullet, the Kieth style SWC, and Accurate #5.

My experience is that the 44 Special is a versatile cartridge usable in many manifestations. Try 44 Special loads in your 44 Magnum. :You my find a highly workable combination.

Slamfire said:

It must have been thirty years after the introduction of the Ruger Blackhawk in 45 LC that reloading manuals started to show "Ruger Only" levels. It will be a while till we see "Ruger Only" 44 Special loads.

Click to expand...

I suggest the problem is this -- if you have a .45 Blackhawk, you can only shoot .45 Colt ammo and if you want .44 Mag performance, you have to load hot. And the .45 Blackhawk can take hot .45 loads.

On the other hand, if you have a Blackhawk in .44, it's a .44 Magnum. No need to hot load .44 Specials in that revolver.

Vern Humphrey said:

On the other hand, if you have a Blackhawk in .44, it's a .44 Magnum. No need to hot load .44 Specials in that revolver.

Click to expand...

I don't understand Vern. Ruger is listing several 44 Special (not 44 Magnum) Blackhawks on their website. Of course the only 44 Special Blackhawks they list have the Bisley grip frames. Are you saying those aren't true Ruger Blackhawks?

This thread got me to thinking about the .44 Special. I just bought a Freedom Arms model 97 in .44 special because I wanted a fine revolver in that caliber for a light packing, woods bumming gun. To load a .44 special to .44 mag levels kinda defeats the whole point of the .44 special. At the time Elmer and Skitter were loading it hot, there were no magnums in .44. They did it to have a hot large caliber round. Today we have anything up to and past .50 caliber in handguns, that will kill any animal that walks. The .44 Special is not a magnum. I think a 255 grain hard cast gas check bullet loaded at around 900-1000 FPS is plenty for the .44 Special. Anything over is where the .44 magnum starts. Why put magnum class speed through a revolver that is not meant to be a magnum, when you can have a magnum revolver that was meant to shoot that round? If you need a magnum, carry one. Loading a . 44 special in the 1000 FPS range is easy on the gun and the shooter and will take deer sized game cleanly at close range. I plan to carry my new FA 97 as a light woods gun, not a kill anything that walks gun and I believe it will serve that purpose well.

Because .44Spl's like that FA 97 are measurably smaller, lighter and more nimble.

Because a 250gr at 1200fps is a .44Spl load, not a .44Mag load.

.44Spl Keith load - 250gr at 1200fps and 26,000psi

.44Mag - 250gr at 1450fps and 36,000psi

.44Mag - 355gr at 1250fps and 36,000psi

Big difference.

CraigC, how well do you think the new 44spcl GP100's will hold up to those 250@1200fps loads?

I think the 5" half lug would be a fine whitetail handgun if it can handle those loads.

CraigC said:

Because .44Spl's like that FA 97 are measurably smaller, lighter and more nimble.

Because a 250gr at 1200fps is a .44Spl load, not a .44Mag load.

.44Spl Keith load - 250gr at 1200fps and 26,000psi

.44Mag - 250gr at 1450fps and 36,000psi

.44Mag - 355gr at 1250fps and 36,000psi

Big difference.

Click to expand...

I agree with you, my point is why not just use a magnum if that is what you need? A 44 special is my favorite caliber out of all calibers. When I was a young man, I thought everything had to be hot loaded, but I guarantee you a deer shot at revolver range is not going to realize a 250 grain, in my case a 255 grain gas check, is going 1000, 1200 or even 1400 FPS. To load a .44 special past 1100-1200 FPS is not needed now days. My point was, there are revolvers that will do the job better if that is what is needed. If you really check and chronograph volicities, from a short barrel revolver, they are not reaching what is stated on the box. Most manufacturers test from at least a 8 3/8” barrel, if not a longer test barrel. Buffalo bore is the only manufacturer, that I know of, that states volicities from different barrel lengths. So that 250 grain 44 magnum round out of a 4 5/8” barrel is going 1200 FPS to maybe 1350? Right at where a hot .44 special ends. Now that I am older, and MAYBE a bit wiser, i don’t see the need to push a . 44 Special to that point. There are revolvers made to handle it much better. Even in .45 Colt, the 454 Casul is plentiful now and ammo is made by all major manufacturers. There is just no need to push it to that point. I have shot and handled the 460 and 500 Smiths. They are getting in to rifle territory in size and weight. Would it be wise to push a 454 to 460 speeds? There is just really no need to do it nowadays because there are guns for it. Back years ago when Elmer and Skitter were doing it, they did not have the guns and caliber selection we have today. I do say you are right, 1200 FPS with a 250-255 grain bullet is a .44 special is a .44 special load. Not disputing that at all. Just saying if you need more, a .44 Special is not the best choice.

gotboostvr said:

CraigC, how well do you think the new 44spcl GP100's will hold up to those 250@1200fps loads?

I think the 5" half lug would be a fine whitetail handgun if it can handle those loads.

Click to expand...

At the distance you will be shooting, 1000fps would be fine and be a lot easer on you and the gun. I would suggest you give the 255 grain gas check Buffalo Bore is making a try before you go to a full 1200fps.

Who's loading the .44Spl beyond the Keith load? I have not seen that here, explicit or implied. The Keith load is generally considered the maximum for the cartridge. Although Brian Pearce did list 300gr loads at similar pressures.

Modern factory .44Mag loads are watered down and I think that is the source of much of the issue here, the idea that a 240gr at 1200fps is a "magnum" load. People usually assume that factory loads are loaded to their full pressure but they are usually not. Only boutique companies like Buffalo Bore do that.

Whether not these loads are necessary or useful is up to the individual. I will say that my most used .44Mag load essentially duplicates the Keith .44Spl load in magnum brass. My .44Spl loads are usually in the 900fps range and for most purposes, that is plenty. However, the potential is there if you need it. More velocity does serve to increase the wound channel and flatten trajectory.

I'm kinda waiting for Brian Pearce to weigh in on the .44Spl GP issue. The limitation is going to be the forcing cone but custom versions have been built for years and they are rated for use with the Keith load. Personally, I like the 950fps Skeeter load for just about everything in the .44Spl.

CraigC said:

Who's loading the .44Spl beyond the Keith load? I have not seen that here, explicit or implied. The Keith load is generally considered the maximum for the cartridge. Although Brian Pearce did list 300gr loads at similar pressures.

Modern factory .44Mag loads are watered down and I think that is the source of much of the issue here, the idea that a 240gr at 1200fps is a "magnum" load. People usually assume that factory loads are loaded to their full pressure but they are usually not. Only boutique companies like Buffalo Bore do that.

Whether not these loads are necessary or useful is up to the individual. I will say that my most used .44Mag load essentially duplicates the Keith .44Spl load in magnum brass. My .44Spl loads are usually in the 900fps range and for most purposes, that is plenty. However, the potential is there if you need it. More velocity does serve to increase the wound channel and flatten trajectory.

I'm kinda waiting for Brian Pearce to weigh in on the .44Spl GP issue. The limitation is going to be the forcing cone but custom versions have been built for years and they are rated for use with the Keith load. Personally, I like the 950fps Skeeter load for just about everything in the .44Spl.

Click to expand...

That is my load also. Again I do say you are right.