Heavy 44 Special loads- Was Elmer Keith crazy or genius?

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evan price

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250 grains @ 1200 fps from a 44 Special.

http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=4
From the article:

You might be thinking, "Why develop loads like this when the 44 Magnum is so common and there's all the data you could possibly want for it?" There are a few reasons. Some people may have an old large frame 44 Special from S&W or Colt, but not a 44 Magnum and want to hunt medium size game with it. Others may have a new M97 from Freedom Arms and want to load it with hunting loads and don't like 2400. But my primary reason for working up these loads is Knowledge for Knowledge sake. I wanted to know what H110 and Lil'Gun could do in this caliber and as far as I know data such as this isn't available anywhere either online or offline.

Keep in mind the loads listed in this article are still well in excess of any standard 44 special load, and since there are no guidelines for what constitutes a "+P" load in this caliber these may generate more, or less, pressure than +P loads from another source. Being pragmatic, if you have a need for such loads you really should use a 44 magnum, not a 44 special.

I have read that when Speer tested Keith's load it measured 27,000 PSI. That is well above the 15,500 PSI specified by SAAMI for a standard 44 Special, but still only approximately 2/3 the pressure that maximum level magnum loads generate. With the slower powders such as H110 and Lil'Gun I expect pressures to be slightly below 27,000 at the same velocity as Keith's load.

Given:
1. Keith loads exceed modern published maximums by SAAMI
2. You can use a 44 Magnum to safely duplicate or even exceed Keith's loads
3. No modern factory load data is provided (I am talking about Speer or Alliant et al)
4. There is an abundance of published load data for various cartridges which state "RUGER ONLY" or "T/C PISTOL ONLY" or "MODERN 45-70 ONLY" in the data, which means that hot 44 spl should be used in appropriate guns only


Is the use of Keith loads today safer in modern pistols (Defined as anything S&W with a model number, a Ruger, etc) and is it acceptable today?

(Trying to re-rail the thread that got locked by personal attack earlier)
 
Elmer was a man of his times when he had to make due with what was at hand. He was cautious but was passionate about guns. He cast most of his own bullets and worked up to the heavy loads slowly. I was fortunate enough to meet Elmer and spend a little time with him and found him an extraordinary person who was interested in all firearms but like to have something on his hip.
 
A 250 gr@ 1200 fps in a modern gun will be safe as far as not blowing the gun up but it is going to cause accelerated wear and tear on the gun. The guns used by Keith were never designed to withstand the kind of pressures he was placing on them and he did manage to blow one up (chambered in .45 Colt.)
 
I think there is a pretty reasonable school of thought is that risk is acceptable when the alternatives are worse. You take a risk when you get in a car and drive to the store. You take an even bigger risk if you walk. The risk of walking is acceptable if you cannot drive, but given the option most people think it is smarter to drive.

Of course that is just one school of thought. Another is that risk acceptance should be based on absolute standards vs. relative, meaning that if your only way to get to the store is on foot, and walking is risky (which it is, relative to driving), you shouldn't go to the store. Another is that risk is based on personal standards, so if a person is willing to take the risk it is acceptable to that person regardless of the relative or absolute scale of risk.

Beyond the different schools of thought on risk, there are different views on alternatives. Some people would say, ".44 special doesn't have enough power to hunt deer? Buy a rifle." Others would say that hunting deer with a rifle is not an alternative to hunting deer with a handgun.

You are never going to get adherents of the various schools to agree. Depending on which schools you align with, you will see Elmer's loads as anything from none of your business, to reasonable, to something reasonable before alternatives like the .44mag existed, to outright madness that should have been illegal for his protection.
 
I don't have time at the moment to go into depth, but look forward to posting this evening. A couple quick points though,

Originally posted by ExMachina

Quote:
Elmer was a man of his times when he had to make due with what was at hand.

He also said that if he had to have just one gun, it would be a 44 special--this was after the 44 mag was introduced

I'd disagree to the quoted quote. He didn't necessarily "make do" with what he had, he actively worked at learning what was possible and reasonable to do to improve what was available.

The second part, do you have a specific location, such as book and page for that quote? I don't recall reading it in the two or three of his books I read.


There seems to be a difference of opinion, or understanding, about what Keith and others were doing with different guns at the time. Some seem to feel he was hell bent on blowing up guns or seeing what it took to do so at every opportunity, some feel he was interested in experimenting on the available guns and loads and improving them, and seeing what was reasonable to do in that quest. After reading several of his books, I see the second as being more in line with his interests and inclinations. It was such people that experimented (and he wasn't the only one) that several of our newer, more modern magnum cartridges came about. The factories didn't seem to be all that big on experimenting with improved handgun loads at that time, it was up to individuals to push the frontiers, just as Dick Cassull did years later in developing the 454, though it could easily be argued he pushed the envelope even further and harder than Keith or his contemporaries did.
 
Could he have said both?

I know I have answered the same questions different ways over the years, as my interests changed and (theoretically) experience grew.
 
THIS would be incorrect, Sir.

Elmer did state were he to have only one sixgun and had to use factory ammunition he would pick a 45COLT.

Ok, Keith said "If a man wishes the most powerful handgun, and still wishes to use only factory ammunition, then the .45 Colt is the one best bet, with Remington black-power loads."

Hen then went on to say "However, if he wishes to reload, then the .44 Special is the best of them all."

But I was wrong when I said that he said this after the 44 magnum was introduced; it was before.

EDIT: these Keith quotes come directly from Taffiin's book Single Action Sixguns
 
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The actual quote is on page 288 of the reprinted "Sixguns by Keith", at the end of paragraph 4. He's talking specifically about the 45 Colt, and concludes with "If I had to shoot only factory ammo the rest of my life, I would take the 45 Colt as my game and defense cartridge". He mentioned in another place that the 44 spl, when handloaded far exceeded all other available cartridges in killing power. He felt it was double the killing power of the 357.

In the same chapter, "Selection of cartridges" he wrote regarding the 44 spl "The cartridge has been badly handicapped all its life by being sadly underloaded. The factory load of a 246 grain slug at 770 feet is no more than a light target load and a disgrace to so fine a cartridge. (end of p 281-start of p 282). He went on describing other attributes of the cartridge and loading it to its potential. This was all before the 44 mag came into existence. Keith took to the 44 magnum right away when it was introduced. He had been trying to get people at Smith, and at the ammo companies to come out with a modernized 44 spl load, telling them the he and many other had used the heavy loads in the Smith and Colt guns for years without issue. They exceeded his intent, but he liked it.

Back to the 44 spl. He started loading various cartridges up, experimenting with them in the early 30's or before. The instance where he had a 45 Colt cylinder let go, coupled with the wide variation in chamber throats and chamber sizes, and bore sizes, convinced him to stick with the 44 spl for his work with heavier loads, as it had heavier cylinder walls, and was also more consistent in dimensions. He had worked up heavy loads in the 38 spl, the factories came out with the 38-44 (on the 44 frame, a 158 gr bullet @ 1100 fps). Keith worked up heavier loads, and his correspondence with people at Smith & Wesson likely was at least partially responsible for the 357 magnum coming out. He liked it, but felt it still wasn't as good of a killer on game as the heavy 44 spl loads. The early 357 loads were a 158 gr bullet @ approx 1550 fps in an 8 3/8" barrel, a fair bit hotter than the current factory loads. as far as I know, he didn't blow any guns up working with the 44 spl, and his loads were pretty commonly known and used.

As was mentioned in the other thread, by the 50's, the loading manuals of the day had them listed as standard fare for the 44 spl. The only guns available were the N frame Smiths and Colt SAA's. both of which seemed to do quite well on the heavy loads, without serious issues that I've ever heard of.

Someone mentioned here, or the other thread, that "the guns weren't meant for such heavy loads". Well, unless one has insight into the actual thinking at the factory at the time, I'd suggest that's a hard assumption to make. The factory loads may have had X pressure specs, but they were making 357's on the same frame that ran much higher chamber pressures than the heavy 44 spl loads. The frames were quite capable. The factory was also quite aware that there were many people using heavy loads in their 44 spl guns. The fact that there were no known problems with the Keith level loads over a fairly long period of time, it may be safer to reason that the guns were in fact built to take them.

Just as Ruger builds 45 Colts capable of far exceeding the factory level loads (and we have a pretty good idea exactly what they will take), it was pretty common knowledge to use the level of loads Keith and others worked up. The 1950's NRA manual I have shows pressure tested loads from factory level on up to the Keith level. I believe they were in older Ideal and perhaps Lyman manuals also, but I don't have any to check (just looked, my 1970 Lyman No 45 manual shows 17.5 grs 2400 with the Lyman No 429421 bullet, giving1150 fps in a 5 1/2" barreled Colt SAA with the then current solid head cases). When the newer solid head cases came out in the mid 50's, it was discussed, and loads worked with to keep them in the same ball park, this wasn't guess work, this was HP White Laboratories testing loads.

It may be noted that when the 44 magnum came out, Keith worked up handloads, and mentioned that the factory loads were hotter than his, and he was happy to keep it that way, as they had the pressure testing equipment to work those loads up. He was satisfied with his loads being below factory, in pressure and velocity. This seems somewhat at odds with those that felt he was a radical and pushed everything to the limits and didn't care if he broke things in the process. I believe he felt that the practical upper limits had been reached, and that we then had very capable guns and loads at that point. Before the work was done with the heavy 38 and 44 spl loads, it really couldnt be said that we had much in the way of high performance loads for handguns for hunting or defense use. BTW, the factory 357 loads were a lead swc, modified from the Keith type bullets, and tended to lead barrels badly. We didn't have the nice jacketed hollow point loads of today, unless one was a bullet caster and cast their own hollow points.

It was mentioned that Speer tested his level of loads and came up with about 28,000 psi. I'm curious as to the details. The bullets matter, the cases matter, as anyone that reloads is aware. The earlier test information shows pretty consistently that the loads of 18.5 grs 2400 showed about 1200 fps and ran right about 20,000 psi in the balloon head cases. When the new cases were tried, the old load showed about 28,000 psi. It was generally felt that being back in the lower-mid 20,000's was better. The NRA manual showed a load of 16 1/2 grs 2400 as a appropriate load with the new cases, though it sowed a bit more pressure than the older cases, and a bit lower velocity. Keith settled on 17 1/2 grs, knowing it was higher pressure than the old load, but was willing to live with the 25,000 psi pressure readings.

Hope this long post was of some interest.
 
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I have an old copy of Sixguns, its falling apart now. I recently acquired one of the reprints, I think they are pretty affordable, maybe $15-$20? Interesting reading, even if one isn't necessarily a big Keith fan. The pictures in the reprint didn't come out real clear, but the text is fine.
 
It was mentioned that Speer tested his level of loads and came up with about 28,000 psi. I'm curious as to the details. The bullets matter, the cases matter, as anyone that reloads is aware. The earlier test information shows pretty consistently that the loads of 18.5 grs 2400 showed about 1200 fps and ran right about 20,000 psi in the balloon head cases. When the new cases were tried, the old load showed about 28,000 psi. It was generally felt that being back in the lower-mid 20,000's was better. The NRA manual showed a load of 16 1/2 grs 2400 as a appropriate load with the new cases, though it sowed a bit more pressure than the older cases, and a bit lower velocity. Keith settled on 17 1/2 grs, knowing it was higher pressure than the old load, but was willing to live with the 25,000 psi pressure readings.

Is there a way to put a number on the resulting velocity of the 17.5 gr, A2400 load, 25,000 psi? Since it varies with the gun parameters, maybe use something comparable to Keith's?
 
It may be noted that when the 44 magnum came out, Keith worked up handloads, and mentioned that the factory loads were hotter than his, and he was happy to keep it that way, as they had the pressure testing equipment to work those loads up. He was satisfied with his loads being below factory, in pressure and velocity. This seems somewhat at odds with those that felt he was a radical and pushed everything to the limits and didn't care if he broke things in the process. I believe he felt that the practical upper limits had been reached, and that we then had very capable guns and loads at that point.

Wonderful post Malamute. The point about Keith being interested in optimization rather than maximization makes a lot of sense.
 
Is there a way to put a number on the resulting velocity of the 17.5 gr, A2400 load, 25,000 psi? Since it varies with the gun parameters, maybe use something comparable to Keith's?

Out of my 5 1/2" NM Blackhawk a 260 gr SWC ran 1218 fps with this load.
 
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Tilting with windmills, maybe, but why can't reloading manuals include loads of this level? They do it for .45 Colt.

The bigger question is how one without the historical background would know any of this without I-read-it-on-the-internet references, WADR.
 
Out of my 5 1/2" NM Blackhawk a 260 gr SWC ran 1218 fps with this load.

Now I'm wondering what bullet weight Malamute was referring to. That is a high velocity for a 260gr. I currently load 210 gr LRNFP to reloading manual levels. Firing that thing must be quite an experience.
 
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Now I'm wondering what bullet weight Malamute was referring to. That is a high velocity for a 260gr. I currently load 210 gr LRNFP to reloading manual levels. Firing that thing must be quite an experience.

240 gr. seems like the unspoken weight for these bullets, especially where commercially cast bullet are concerned, but really the original Lyman 429421, at least to 2 or 3 I've used, drop bullets more in the 250 gr. range. My NOE 429421 mould as well as my RCBS 44-250KT drop them right at 260 grs. Using many different powders and charges, there is in my experience no appreciable difference in velocities in the "Keith" style SWC's I've cast and used weighing from 245 to 260 grs. Given velocities are consistent and predictable, I'd imagine pressures are too.

I'd say firing these loads are about like firing a factory .44 Magnum as they are pretty much the equivalent of 44 Magnum loads as produced by the Big 3 ammunition manufacturers.

35W
 
Was Elmer Keith crazy or genius?

You have created a false dichotomy. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Heck, I'm pretty sure I've got the first one of those options down pat. Now if only I could add the second.....:p
 
I just noticed a reference to that 17.5 gr A2400 Keith load in the latest Reloader magazine, only my second issue. It appears on page 70 as part of the article entitled "Bears":).
 
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