Bear defence gun 44 or 454

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In most cases it doesnt but since you brought it up, telling someone that they shouldn't use a gun is exactly what the left wants to hear, so it kind of is.

Did it ever occur to you that not all situations are best handled with a gun??

I seek the BEST solution to every problem. If the best solution is a gun, I use a gun. If the best solution is something other than a gun, I will still go for the best.

Try to keep in mind that not everything in life is political. And a gun is not the solution to all situations. Often it isn't the best solution.
 
But this is a GUN forum. We're discussing GUNS for bear. Not all the other things that 'may' be contemplated if a bear encounter occurs or the actions leading up to one. It's generally not advisable to start shooting when you see a bear, just as we don't automatically pull our carry guns and start shooting when threatened with a confrontation with another individual. But this is a GUN forum and that's what we discuss, GUNS.
 
Well, if it traverses a 2000lb water buffalo, that is much larger and more heavily constructed than a bear......

Yeah, I thought that's what I remembered you mentioning but I was wondering about the details like bullet weight, velocity, type and distance fired... I've heard of 54 cal lead bullets fired from muzzle loading rifles going through a bison end to end but am just surprised that a 44 revolver will do something similar...
 
I only have two things to add to this conversation. As a LEO I found pepper spray to be ineffective in 4 attempts to use it. The first three had no effect and in the 4th instance it made the bad guy so mad it took three of us to get him handcuffed. With that personal experience as background, I would have little to no confidence in its effectiveness against a bear.

My second point is the idea that this won't happen to you. It happens to people often enough that we have all hear and read accounts (sometimes inaccurate though they may be) of bear attacks. Not being armed, or deploying pepper spray to no effect would be of little consolation when you are actually attacked by a bear. It does happen to people and I have no idea where or how one acquires a "certificate of immunity" to the possibility.

YMMV,
Dave
 
I only have two things to add to this conversation. As a LEO I found pepper spray to be ineffective in 4 attempts to use it. The first three had no effect and in the 4th instance it made the bad guy so mad it took three of us to get him handcuffed. With that personal experience as background, I would have little to no confidence in its effectiveness against a bear.

My second point is the idea that this won't happen to you. It happens to people often enough that we have all hear and read accounts (sometimes inaccurate though they may be) of bear attacks. Not being armed, or deploying pepper spray to no effect would be of little consolation when you are actually attacked by a bear. It does happen to people and I have no idea where or how one acquires a "certificate of immunity" to the possibility.

YMMV,
Dave
I think the idea that "it won't happen to me" is one that plagues every aspect of our culture. The odds of a lot of bad stuff is low but do you want to be the one who draws that unlucky card? I don't.

Many moons ago, when I was a field tech, I was in constant contact with other people's dogs. Initially, we were issued pepper spray that actually worked pretty good, usually. It was when people started complaining about how their harmless pooch's eyes were turned inside out that they stopped issuing it. Never mind that they were sprayed because they tried to eat us alive. So when it worked, it worked great and once was enough. It was the times it didn't work that made you all warm & fuzzy inside. We had guys get bitten. We had one instance where the tech had to kill the dog with his bare hands just to get out of the situation. I had several close calls myself. These are dogs, someone's 50-150lb pet, not wild bears that are used to having to kill something to have a meal. Sorry if I'm not so inclined to put all my faith in pepper spray.
 
Out of the two (.44 Mag vs .454 Cas) I'd probably pick the .44 Mag just because it's big enough to get the job done, it's more common, ammunition costs less and as a result I'd probably train with it more which would probably end up resulting in better hits during a jacked up situation.

Personally I'd rather avoid bears than have to shoot them. If I saw one I'd do my best to edge off and leave without attracting its attention, I'd try to use pepper spray (if I had time and I thought it appropriate) and I wouldn't leave food scraps or wrappers laying around my camp site and so on.

Out of the two though I'd go with the one that was powerful, but that I was the most accurate with ... that means a .44 Mag.

In the gun vs pepper spray argument I actually carry both. It's not an either/or sort of thing.
 
I am also comfortable with what true professionals like forest rangers, wildlife biologists and game wardens use.
The question is, why do they use what they use? Just because professionals use something, doesn't necessarily make it the best tool for the job. They usually use whatever their government agency has issued them. Even if they've killed several bears, if all they've ever used was whatever they were issued, how relevant is their experience? Or lack thereof? Same with Africa. You'll find no shortage of PH's who'd say that handguns are a joke against game like Cape buffalo but just because they're a "professional" does not make them an authority, if they have zero experience with handguns or handgun hunters.
I am not generally inclined to share any personal details of my life here for several reasons, but I'm one of the professionals mentioned in cheygriz's post.

So I wanted to clarify a few points here.

"Park Rangers" work for the National Park Service under the Department of the Interior. Their knowledge base is highly variable, and a lot of the young people you meet at park entrances and working behind the counter at visitor centers have no knowledge of the resource in question, because the Park Service is a preservationist agency not a conservation agency. They preserve special places, which is great, but you can't assume they know anything relevant to wildlife. The BLM is under the Department of the Interior as well.

Game Wardens work for state governments.

Wildlife biologists is an appropriate term, and state and federal agencies both employ them for their expertise.

"Forest Ranger" is a widely misused term. In the National Forest System (Department of Agriculture), there is a Washington Office, Regional Offices, and then there are Supervisor's Offices on each National Forest. There are over 140 National Forests. And within each National Forest there are several Ranger Districts. The District Ranger is the boss on that district, and answers directly to the Forest Supervisor. The individuals most people encounter in the woods are Forestry Technicians of one kind or another, or they are a professional specialist. Foresters and silviculturists make timber sales and implement veg management projects. Other "ologist" like biologists and hydrologists are involved in specialist review and planning. So if you live near a National Forest, and want to know about timber harvesting activities, ask to talk to the Timber Staff Officer, or the Forester, not the Forest Ranger, unless you have a complaint. By all means, call the boss then.

CraigC's post is spot on. What many people don't understand is that everything the government does is approached from a liability and risk management standpoint. Why do people working in griz country get issued bear spray? It's because it is a lot cheaper to buy bear spray for your employees than to buy everyone a S&W 500 magnum, an appropriate field holster, and enough ammo to keep them certified. Every piece of potentially dangerous equipment the government uses requires a certification process that needs to be maintained. Think about that cost. Think about the liability and potential lawsuits that would occur if one gov employee accidentally killed another with a firearm. The bottom line is that the risk and upkeep are much lower with bear sprits than with firearms. However, when you talk to people who work in areas with large predators, they typically acknowledge that bear spray can be effective, but many of them express that they would like to have a firearm on hand as well. Never assume that what the professionals use is what they want. It's what their employer allows them to have. If they don't like it, they can look for another job. Bear spray has also been effective enough that they can avoid lawsuits when someone gets mangled, though their affidavit covers that really. It's why there aren't lawsuits when firefighters get burned up (which very sadly happens every year almost). They signed on, so good luck.

Also, think about the image that would be portrayed by agencies if lots of their employees were armed. They are trying to increase use and provide a good experience. "Sir why do you have a gun?" "That's in case Smokey needs an attitude adjustment mam." It wouldn't go over well. That doesn't change the fact that many of us would gladly provide our own equipment and ammo to stay qualified and certified. But that opens another liability door.

We also don't have Jason Borne type computers to work with. Most of us have PCs that are easily 5-8 years out of date, using operating systems that are two versions behind everyone else.

Another point that is often lost on people is that grizzly bears and brown bears are the same species, but they are better thought of as subpopulations exhibiting different traits. There is a big difference between inland grizzlies in the Rocky Mountains, a coastal brown bear, inland Alaskan grizzlies, and a Kodiak bear. The differences can be measured in hundreds of pounds of difference, and feet of length. I worked with a guy who was stationed in Thorn Bay Alaska for a few years. It was a requirement that someone on the crew there had to be certified and carrying a long gun of some kind.

If dealing with inland grizzlies, I would be confident with a 10mm auto as a minimum if loaded with proper bullets. A 357 is really pushing it if you ask me on anything bigger than a black bear. For coastal browns or Alaskan grizz, I would want a 44 magnum or bigger. For Kodiak, I'll view them from a helicopter thank you very much. I mean we are talking about a bear that can weigh 1500 lbs and be ten feet tall. The record is over 1600 lbs.

As CraigC and several other hunters have pointed out large and dangerous animals can be harvested with a 44 magnum if a proper loading of powder and a well constructed bullet is used. So I am going to repeat my first assertion, that if the OP can hit accurately and more quickly with the 44 than the 454, I would carry that. There's a big difference between a carefully aimed hunting shot and a panic driven survival shot. Speed and marksmanship is going to be key. Bring a change of underwear also.

Edit: I worked alone in the woods, in predator country, for 12 years, 3-6 days a week, for 8-12 hour days. I have spent more time alone in the woods than most people will spend in a group in the woods in their lifetimes. Bear spray is something everyone should have along, but I STILL want a gun. I've been chased by domestic bulls, bit by a dog, charged by a coyote and two white tail deer bucks in the rut. I have been confronted by an angry person with gun in hand as well, and have come across multiple predators. Redundancy is a good thing when it comes to safety. However, I have never, nor will I ever bring a firearm into my workplace. The chances are slim that it would ever be needed, and my career would end right there. I'd also face prosecution. So the professionals are just doing what they are allowed, and the willingness to take on risk is usually part of the passion of what we do.

Second Edit: I apologize if I came off as preachy. I just want good info out there in regards to my professional field, and since I've been in it for awhile, I have strong feeling on the matter. Inaccurate info and misconceptions don't do anyone any good.
 
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The argument that more folks are stung by bees and wasps is disingenuous in that many, many more people come in contact with bees and wasps than do come in contact with bears. So, yes, more people are stung by bees and wasps than attacked by bears. Not really germane to the discussion. That said, I would rather take my chances with a firearm than what amounts to a condiment. But that's just me...

Oh, and I'll take a .454 over the .44. Give me some more horsepower to sort a problem out if it occurs. But again, that's just me...
 
I'm getting older now. And I only saw a bear once. A medium black bear galloped right through the front yard past the window.
Odds are, I won't see another. But then again, maybe I will.

If I ever go into bear country, I'll have bear spray and a .44 Magnum.
But most of all, I'll learn how to hear and spot them so I can avoid them.

Yes, this is a gun forum. But I don't mind learning a bit extra if I can.
 
I'm getting older now. And I only saw a bear once. A medium black bear galloped right through the front yard past the window.
Odds are, I won't see another. But then again, maybe I will.

If I ever go into bear country, I'll have bear spray and a .44 Magnum.
But most of all, I'll learn how to hear and spot them so I can avoid them.

Yes, this is a gun forum. But I don't mind learning a bit extra if I can.

You'd be amazed how quite they can be for such big critters. Two years ago I had a very large blacky walk right under my tree stand during bow season (didn't present a shot I was comfortable with) he had to have been pushing 350 maybe more. I spotted movement 75 yards out and he was moving at a good rate,kinda seemed like he was on a mission he wasn't meandering at all. Honestly movement wise couldn't really hear him coming up untill he was under me. However he was huffing pretty good as he passed under my tree . If he fallowed the brush line to my left about 50 yards, I wouldnt have seen him (maybe a glympse when he crossed the old skidder trail) and probably would have never knew he was there at all. Tell ya what, if that don't get your heart thumping idk what will.
 
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You would be better off using professional grade pepper spray like the Forest Service, Park Service and other professionals use.

(Unless. of course, you're looking for an excuse to poach a bear)
While in Alaska I asked how to tell the difference between, brown/grizzly scat and black bear scat: the answer is that grizzly/brown bear scat often has metallic shards of bear spray cans in it! A joke, but I'd rather have a gun as well as bear spray, if the wind is in your face spray is useless, the gun still shoots!
 
If I could hit a pie plate at 20 yards two times in 3 seconds more times than not with the .454 that is what I would use if I had both .
 
Rick,

If you can hit a pie plate twice in 3 seconds at 20 yards, with a full power .454 out of the holster...you can do what ever you want to. (smiley face goes here)

Dave
 
If a few of you would actually read my previous posts, my point was not that more people get stung by bees , that's obvious.

The point was that MORE PEOPLE DIE from bee and wasp/hornet stings than snakebites or bear attacks.
 
I think people got that point just fine. But the point of the thread is even though the chances of needing a gun to fend off a bear are incredibly slim, when you need a gun you need a gun, and you won't KNOW you need it until you NEED it. We all want to be carrying the right gun for the job.

And that's why I also carry shot shell rounds......... for shooting bees. ;)

Oh! I'd totally start a "What gun for bees?" thread. But I'm guessing the mods would not approve.

Speaking of the mods......... I'm guessing we're about done here.
 
I know a girl who was mauled after successfully deploying bear spray. Given she was still alive, she now has a grossly deformed arm missing alot of muscle. Ill stick to my guns, call me old fashioned if you like. Later, state troopers asked her how the bear spray worked, she told me she said “how does it look like it f$&@ing worked?. I also know two people who have stopped grizzly charges with handguns, one a 10mm glock, and one a .44 mag. The latter was on kodiak and was quite a large bear. I also dont like the thought that with bear spray, the “problem bear” will likely become someone elses problem soon, possibly someone without bear spray or a gun...also id rather not be blinded while miles and miles from civilization. If your gonna use bear spray, try spraying it sometime for practice and you’ll realize how easily it can get all over you as well as your target.
There was also a jogger that stopped a large brown attack with a 2" barrel 454 bear gun, he called it in and was at first charged till the vet forensic examiner found powder burns on the bear's muzzle, verifying the runner's claim that he shot and continued to shoot as the bear charged him. He was uninjured but was knocked down as the bear ran into him upon his last shot. I read this in a hunting mag at the Dentist office.
 
robhof,

I read that guy's story, as told my him. Scary stuff. Glad it wasn't me and glad he lived through it.

I thought it was ridiculous that he was criminally charged at first. When I was an LEO I didn't arrest people until after the investigation.

Dave
 
If a few of you would actually read my previous posts, my point was not that more people get stung by bees , that's obvious.

The point was that MORE PEOPLE DIE from bee and wasp/hornet stings than snakebites or bear attacks.

Perhaps that is true because HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS MORE PEOPLE live in bee and wasp/hornet habitat than even venture into snake or bear habitat. Logic is so confusing!
 
I am not generally inclined to share any personal details of my life here for several reasons, but I'm one of the professionals mentioned in cheygriz's post.

So I wanted to clarify a few points here.

"Park Rangers" work for the National Park Service under the Department of the Interior. Their knowledge base is highly variable, and a lot of the young people you meet at park entrances and working behind the counter at visitor centers have no knowledge of the resource in question, because the Park Service is a preservationist agency not a conservation agency. They preserve special places, which is great, but you can't assume they know anything relevant to wildlife. The BLM is under the Department of the Interior as well.

Game Wardens work for state governments.

Wildlife biologists is an appropriate term, and state and federal agencies both employ them for their expertise.

"Forest Ranger" is a widely misused term. In the National Forest System (Department of Agriculture), there is a Washington Office, Regional Offices, and then there are Supervisor's Offices on each National Forest. There are over 140 National Forests. And within each National Forest there are several Ranger Districts. The District Ranger is the boss on that district, and answers directly to the Forest Supervisor. The individuals most people encounter in the woods are Forestry Technicians of one kind or another, or they are a professional specialist. Foresters and silviculturists make timber sales and implement veg management projects. Other "ologist" like biologists and hydrologists are involved in specialist review and planning. So if you live near a National Forest, and want to know about timber harvesting activities, ask to talk to the Timber Staff Officer, or the Forester, not the Forest Ranger, unless you have a complaint. By all means, call the boss then.

CraigC's post is spot on. What many people don't understand is that everything the government does is approached from a liability and risk management standpoint. Why do people working in griz country get issued bear spray? It's because it is a lot cheaper to buy bear spray for your employees than to buy everyone a S&W 500 magnum, an appropriate field holster, and enough ammo to keep them certified. Every piece of potentially dangerous equipment the government uses requires a certification process that needs to be maintained. Think about that cost. Think about the liability and potential lawsuits that would occur if one gov employee accidentally killed another with a firearm. The bottom line is that the risk and upkeep are much lower with bear sprits than with firearms. However, when you talk to people who work in areas with large predators, they typically acknowledge that bear spray can be effective, but many of them express that they would like to have a firearm on hand as well. Never assume that what the professionals use is what they want. It's what their employer allows them to have. If they don't like it, they can look for another job. Bear spray has also been effective enough that they can avoid lawsuits when someone gets mangled, though their affidavit covers that really. It's why there aren't lawsuits when firefighters get burned up (which very sadly happens every year almost). They signed on, so good luck.

Also, think about the image that would be portrayed by agencies if lots of their employees were armed. They are trying to increase use and provide a good experience. "Sir why do you have a gun?" "That's in case Smokey needs an attitude adjustment mam." It wouldn't go over well. That doesn't change the fact that many of us would gladly provide our own equipment and ammo to stay qualified and certified. But that opens another liability door.

We also don't have Jason Borne type computers to work with. Most of us have PCs that are easily 5-8 years out of date, using operating systems that are two versions behind everyone else.

Another point that is often lost on people is that grizzly bears and brown bears are the same species, but they are better thought of as subpopulations exhibiting different traits. There is a big difference between inland grizzlies in the Rocky Mountains, a coastal brown bear, inland Alaskan grizzlies, and a Kodiak bear. The differences can be measured in hundreds of pounds of difference, and feet of length. I worked with a guy who was stationed in Thorn Bay Alaska for a few years. It was a requirement that someone on the crew there had to be certified and carrying a long gun of some kind.

If dealing with inland grizzlies, I would be confident with a 10mm auto as a minimum if loaded with proper bullets. A 357 is really pushing it if you ask me on anything bigger than a black bear. For coastal browns or Alaskan grizz, I would want a 44 magnum or bigger. For Kodiak, I'll view them from a helicopter thank you very much. I mean we are talking about a bear that can weigh 1500 lbs and be ten feet tall. The record is over 1600 lbs.

As CraigC and several other hunters have pointed out large and dangerous animals can be harvested with a 44 magnum if a proper loading of powder and a well constructed bullet is used. So I am going to repeat my first assertion, that if the OP can hit accurately and more quickly with the 44 than the 454, I would carry that. There's a big difference between a carefully aimed hunting shot and a panic driven survival shot. Speed and marksmanship is going to be key. Bring a change of underwear also.

Edit: I worked alone in the woods, in predator country, for 12 years, 3-6 days a week, for 8-12 hour days. I have spent more time alone in the woods than most people will spend in a group in the woods in their lifetimes. Bear spray is something everyone should have along, but I STILL want a gun. I've been chased by domestic bulls, bit by a dog, charged by a coyote and two white tail deer bucks in the rut. I have been confronted by an angry person with gun in hand as well, and have come across multiple predators. Redundancy is a good thing when it comes to safety. However, I have never, nor will I ever bring a firearm into my workplace. The chances are slim that it would ever be needed, and my career would end right there. I'd also face prosecution. So the professionals are just doing what they are allowed, and the willingness to take on risk is usually part of the passion of what we do.

Second Edit: I apologize if I came off as preachy. I just want good info out there in regards to my professional field, and since I've been in it for awhile, I have strong feeling on the matter. Inaccurate info and misconceptions don't do anyone any good.
Thank you
Jeff
 
Thanks for all the imput. Im still deciding what gun I will carry as a backup. I will probably carry some bear spray also. But truth be told, if I do face a charge, I hope I dont reach for spray and need the gun. From what Ive read many attacks happen with very little reaction time available. I doubt you have time to use both.
As to hornets, well I had a horse step on a nest once. I was trailing on the backend of a packstring. Cliff on one side and my horse starts bucking right into the string. 6 horses walked ahead of me yet I lucked into a nest. No time for wasp spray or a gun.
Dang maybe I should stay home. Lol aint happening
 
338reddog
I had a friend on another forum, that lives in Alaska, tell me that one way to look at bear defense with a gun is to perform this drill:
  • Take 5 big targets with black dots the size of a bear’s nose in the center. 2 - 3”. The “nose” should be about 3 feet off the ground.
  • Place the first target at around 50 yards from your firing line. The next at 40 yards, then 30, then 20 then 10 yards.
  • Place the targets in a staggered formation side to side (like a bear was running at you, the head and nose are moving back and forth)
  • Now take your gun of choice and from the firing line and fire one round at each target “nose” from furthest to closest in 3-5 seconds. A bear can run 25mph which covers 12.2 yards a second.
  • If you can hit the bear in the nose you have more than likely achieved a kill shot.
I have never shot a bear in the nose so I do not know for sure if that is the magical sweet spot for a kill.

Well what do you know...I found this article that may also help in assessing one’s abilities in regards to a bear attack:
https://www.outdoorlife.com/article...-defense-practice-drill-drop-charging-grizzly

I did find this article about bear spray interesting and if nothing else it describes a bear’s demeanor and actions in regards to a possible attack.
http://sportsafield.com/grizzly-defense/

Just so you know, I tried the drill that I wrote out with my 30-30 Winchester carbine and my Ruger Vaquero .45 Colt with a 7.5” barrel. With the carbine one round would have hit the nose. I think it was a lucky shot because the other rounds were on the paper but not close to the nose. The nose shot was at 20 yards.
With my Vaquero it was a good thing I had a 6th round in the gun. This way I could shoot the bear up close and personal. (Sarcasm) The first 5 were no where near the nose and 3 weren’t even on the paper...
 
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First off, I've never hunted or shot a bear so I'll not comment on the appropriate gun or round for one. My one and only bear encounter in the wild was a 150# black that I saw at 50 yards while squirrel hunting several years ago. That was thrilling.

460 shooter, excellent post on the limitations imposed on the people who work in our parks system. Typical that administrators are more prepared to have an employee injured than explain to the public why they are equipped for a job.

The argument about bees and wasps is the classic approach. Each and every day 330 million people in the US are in an environment where they can potentially be stung. For the same reason that lightning is more likely to kill you than a bear, yep, almost everyone in the US is potentially exposed to lightning. Now, how many are in bear territory on any given day? I honestly don't know but I'll bet it's a heckuva lot less that 330 million. Changes the odds or probability calculations a bit.

As far as the effectiveness of pepper spray on bears, I don't know. My experience with pepper spray is on humans. I've personally used it on people 60+ times. In my experience it was about 80% effective meaning that those I sprayed either stopping fighting or their effectiveness in fighting was diminished. The other 20% were not affected and an old fashioned fight was on. Is spray on humans comparable to spraying a charging bear? I suspect the bear will have a higher drive and be more resistant than a person. I still think the spray should be one of the tools in the tool cabinet.
 
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