Moving up to Blue...worth it?

Bang! said:

This apple to oranges comparison is to the point of being dishonest. Why would you compare the Dillon four station press to the Hornady five station press and then say the Dillon comes up short because it has four stations. Compare five station to five station.

Think I’ll go load up some more 38 on my Breechlock Pro. That press is the bomb!

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Cost.

For instance, I've been loading on a Lee Classic SS press for about 7 years. Lots of people say that Lee is mostly junk but I've never had an issue with it. Same with Hornady, I have some of their dies that work fine.

I'm looking for how the gear functions mostly. If it does what I want it to do I'm not paying more to have the same level of functionality if everything else is equal.

I don't have any high end firearms either because I'm mostly just your average range rat looking for a cheap way to shoot.

I

CoalTrain49 said:

Cost.

For instance, I've been loading on a Lee Classic SS press for about 7 years. Lots of people say that Lee is mostly junk but I've never had an issue with it. Same with Hornady, I have some of their dies that work fine.

I'm looking for how the gear functions mostly. If it does what I want it to do I'm not paying more to have the same level of functionality if everything else is equal.

I don't have any high end firearms either because I'm mostly just your average range rat looking for a cheap way to shoot.

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If its about cost and not apple to apples then a good comparison would be between the LnL AP and the LCT. LCT is a fine press and at such a lower cost than the LnL Ap it wins hands down in a head to head competition with cost being the deciding factor.

I’ve had a large sample of presses and dies from Lee, Hornady, RCBS, and Dillon. Kind of got side tracked for awhile with presses being the hobby and not reloading or shooting. Got carried away. Still sitting on about nine presses. Trying to decde which ones to sell. I watch these emotionally driven color wars with some entertainment.

Lee presses are great. If it’s just need then you can find all your needs right there. Lee seems to have worked out the most serious bugs. My Loadmaster and Pro 1000 work great but they are the latest designs.

Lee Classic Cast Single Stage Breechlock press is a beast.

You can build a very nice reloading setup centered around the LCT for not much dollars. Caliber changes for it are cheap.

The Loadmaster works great for every step of the reloading process. The case feeder works. The priming system will prime down to the last primer in the chute. With a little effort, setting up the dies in the toolhead you can get a respectable and repeatable COL. If you just want to shoot pistol as cheaply as possible the Loadmaster will do it. Too bad the press still carries the reputation it earned years ago.

The new Breechlock Pro has been a lot of fun to setup. I think the budget minded reloader can have a great setup with that press as the center of it all.

I bought the Hornady LnL AP and set it up for three calibers. My reviews on the experience with that press here on THR get deleted so that’s all I have to say on that.

Picked up a Dillon XL650 just to see what all the hubbub was and well, there’s a reason everyone here competes against that press. It does set the bar that all others as measured by. The usual tactic for the lesser colors is to say, “ours cost less.”

You get what you pay for.

CraigC said:

Since you can go to the Dillon site and order a 650 with everything including case and bullet feeders, I think this is bogus point.

https://www.dillonprecision.com/mr-bulletfeeder-by-double-alpha_8_131_26506.html

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Thank you for making my point. Now, you will notice that Mr. Bulletfeeder BY DOUBLE-ALPHA. You will also find the Dillon site has Lyman, RCBS, Redding, and Hornady. They are in no way Dillon even though they are offered on the Dillon site.

The usual tactic for the lesser colors is to say, “ours cost less.

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Our's cost more. Might be a good marketing strategy for Dillon.

DRAINSMITH said:

Thank you for making my point. Now, you will notice that Mr. Bulletfeeder BY DOUBLE-ALPHA. You will also find the Dillon site has Lyman, RCBS, Redding, and Hornady. They are in no way Dillon even though they are offered on the Dillon site.

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I did not make your point. My point is, so what??? It's obvious that Dillon believes strongly enough in the product to sell it as an accessory to their flagship press.

DRAINSMITH said:

Thank you for making my point. Now, you will notice that Mr. Bulletfeeder BY DOUBLE-ALPHA. You will also find the Dillon site has Lyman, RCBS, Redding, and Hornady. They are in no way Dillon even though they are offered on the Dillon site.

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Oh, you still harpin’ on that, drainsmith? Hornady subcontracts a lot of their stuff. Read the memo. No such thing as 100% pure bred anymore. Except for Lee, of course.

I have been reloading for a little more than a half century. The quality of the reloading equipment these days couldn't be any better. Hornady, Dillon, Lee, RCBS, Redding, etc., is all going to be of the highest quality.

Read reviews on progressive presses for months before buying my first one. After reading all of these reviews it seemed to be that the Hornady LNL and Dillon 650 were just about equal. Still couldn't decide.

So seeking the advice of a good friend that had been using progressives for years he told me I didn't need a Hornady LNL or Dillon 650. For my reloading of about 700 rounds a month he said a Dillon 550 would be best. I do frequent caliber changes and a 550 excels at that. I do not have a station for a powder cop but I visually check each charge. The way I prefer to do things.

A Dillon 550 is a pleasingly easy press to work with. As far as the Dillon Powder measure it is as accurate as my Harrell's and Redding 3BR with ball and flake powders. And that's pretty accurate. The 550 was middle ground for me. More press than the turret's and single stages I had used for decades but not quite a LNL or 650. After two years and thousands of rounds my friend was right. A Dillon 550 was all that I needed.

Gentlemen.. let's not get into a pissing match. I'm on motorcycle forums that say Harleys suck. Of course, they do , but there is no need to try to make someone else feel belittled by having one. The blue and the red presses have their followers for good reason, and have been in business for many years. If neither was viable, they would have been out of business long ago..

You get what you pay for.

I wish I could say that about the 73 Dodge and the 07 Chev pickup I purchased.

I haven’t read every post since my last post but it seems like a theme is “why” and “how” people come to conclusions they do.

I have read enough of these threads that I decided to use a Lee progressive, had success.

I have read enough threads that I owned RCBS progressives, success.

The LNL measure has often been touted as a good one, I had two of them (pre and post EZ ject) they too worked.

Dillon’s, I have a couple SD’s, a 550, couple 650’s and 1050’s.

Is there a best?

Yes...for you.

What makes one better than another might be the same thing that makes you dislike a girl that everyone loves or love a girl that everyone hates.

So...as tasty as a 650 looks to me despite the cost to get one up and going...in your opinion, does a blue press make any better quality ammo, first of all?

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The components and dies you use in most any press will have more to do with the quality of the finished product than the press itself, all else being equal.

If you went from one brand to blue, did you notice better ammo?

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No, some machines do require less work to get running and maintain though.

I've heard of people using Lee dies in Dillon presses, and I might would too...

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I have some that I use, they work.

At this point, it's a time thing, and I feel like I have to do so much tinkering and Mickey Mouse-ing (Auto Drum) it'd be nice to just load up some components and within a minute or two be cranking out some quality reloads and within an hour already replaced what I shot that day.

I do believe in buy once, cry once, but I knew in the beginning I was not ready for a progressive and wanted to take it slow. I'm trying to not impulse buy and see maybe how much I shoot this year to justify it. Just wanted to get some opinions from folks that have tried Lee or other brands, especially turrets, then went to blue and wished they'd been there all along. How is it worth it to you?

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It really doesn’t matter what it’s worth to someone else, your the one it’s import to or not.

Least amount of tinkering and just loading has been Dillon equipment for me.

You mention the 650 specifically, this is what a 100 rounds on one of mine with bullet feed and case collators looks like, once everything is set up and ready to go.



Just because you can load 100 in 4 minutes doesn’t mean you are going to knock out 1500 an hour though.

You still have to stop and fill everything up.



That said, I don’t run “marathon” load sessions. If I am loading lots of rounds I use one of my automated machines. I can’t stand to run one of the 650’s like that for more than an hour or so but generally just load in 200-300 round batches. Lots of stuff going on that requires focus at that speed.

If you slow the load rate from the 1500/hr rate in the first video to the 1080/hr rate like this,



It’s easier to maintain and less stressful but you still have to add the refill time to the rate to equal production over time.

Are Dillon’s the end all be all? No. I have spent more hours using other equipment; however, if it’s a “time thing” and you don’t want a lot of tinkering, that’s my go to equipment.

jmorris said:

Are Dillon’s the end all be all? No. I have spent more hours using other equipment; however, if it’s a “time thing” and you don’t want a lot of tinkering, that’s my go to equipment.

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And that's the crux of it all......if it's a time thing you go with what's all setup, tested, and what you're used to. I mentioned that I have a new green 7 station press. In May will have had it a whole year......unfortunately, I don't get to load, tinker, or do anything reloading wise, nearly as often as I used to.....and most of you would be all comfy with a new press faster than me now. But for me tinkering is where the fun is.....bet jmorris agrees, or he wouldn't do it so much.

Take this video of the Pro Chucker 7, just after I perfected the initially less than steller case feeder (RCBS's first try at one). You will notice that it stopped abruptly at the end......a fault?......no, just me forgetting to set the ejection wire correctly first. (I don't ever do perfect videos you know....part of entertaining you all) but you can see how smooth the press is and how well the feeder works after the fun two weeks of tinkering.


30 seconds to adjust the wire ejector......then.....



One last thought.......if you don't like to tinker.....or you have a hard time paying attention to details......or you are patience-challenged, I suggest you buy factory ammo or at least stay with single station......no color of press will save you! ......I'm reminded of my first Dillon 650 demo at a friends cave........in five minutes we were on the floor looking for spilled primers and sweeping up powder..........can happen to anyone who loses their concentration.

GW Staar said:

in five minutes we were on the floor looking for spilled primers and sweeping up powder..........can happen to anyone who loses their concentration.

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Ain’t that the truth

One last thought.......if you don't like to tinker.....or you have a hard time paying attention to details......or you are patience-challenged, I suggest you buy factory ammo or at least stay with single station......no color of press will save you!

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Probably should be a warning label on the box of every progessive press like tobacco and alcohol.

Spell check changed my bad spelling of progressive to oppressive.

jmorris

jmorris said:

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jmorris:
In the Vid, I noticed the Dillon powder measure (pm) slide return on the down stroke has a pause in it, like 2 separate motions.
Is that initial move from a spring and the 2nd move from a rod attached to the shell plate carrier?
Not understanding that,
Anyone?

There's no spring on that powder measure. It's all done by the fail safe rod. That's normal action for that powder measure with the fail safe rod.

Texas10mm said:

There's no spring on that powder measure. It's all done by the fail safe rod. That's normal action for that powder measure with the fail safe rod.

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Thanks for responding
Why are there 2 motions, or 2 half moves?

not relevant but...
I never liked the Lee measures that return about the same way via a chain.
I didn't like the Lee wrap-around spring method either, too jerky.
I use the chain arm and a stout spring for return, that way the expander and riser sleeves follow the case down as a solid column with no gaps for powder to hide in.

sorry for the drift,

Tilos said:

jmorris
jmorris:
In the Vid, I noticed the Dillon powder measure (pm) slide return on the down stroke has a pause in it, like 2 separate motions.
Is that initial move from a spring and the 2nd move from a rod attached to the shell plate carrier?
Not understanding that,
Anyone?

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Dillon has made at least 3 linkages over the last 30 years.

The first one, in the pliers, used the two springs at the top to return the measure. With some powders they could get stuck in the “dump” position and cause a squib so they came up with the linkage on the measure, where the failsafe rod positively returned the measure.



So no more squibs were possible; however, if an operator raised the ram enough to dump a powder charge and didn’t lower it enough to index (short stroke), they could raise it again and double charge the case.

So they came up with this linkage where the measure could not return to fill with another charge until after the shell plate has rotated, eliminating the possibility of a double charge.


With some powders I have found no difference in the way they meter but some meter better out of the “clunker”. I suppose the extra vibration is like the knocker on the Lyman 55’s.

jmorris said:

Dillon has made at least 3 linkages over the last 30 years.

The first one, in the pliers, used the two springs at the top to return the measure. With some powders they could get stuck in the “dump” position and cause a squib so they came up with the linkage on the measure, where the failsafe rod positively returned the measure.

View attachment 835333

So no more squibs were possible; however, if an operator raised the ram enough to dump a powder charge and didn’t lower it enough to index (short stroke), they could raise it again and double charge the case.

So they came up with this linkage where the measure could not return to fill with another charge until after the shell plate has rotated, eliminating the possibility of a double charge.
View attachment 835334

With some powders I have found no difference in the way they meter but some meter better out of the “clunker”. I suppose the extra vibration is like the knocker on the Lyman 55’s.

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Thanks for the history and explanation.
So that hairpin spring in the 2nd pic is partially returning the powder slide, is the 1st motion and the 2nd motion after the pause is the fail safe rod ?
thanks,

Amazing....30 years to get the powder measure to work well......and nobody defamed them over it. It's a Dillon...who cares?

Anyone remember Hornady's trouble with their LnL bushing system a few years ago? They finally fixed the problem and now nobody cares, all's forgotten and forgiven.

Yet RCBS has trouble with a primer sled on a brand new product......and it's a suddenly a piece of s...... that most everybody has rejected out of hand based a few reviews done by early adopters, who shouldn't have been. It's a great product in my personal experience, yet it's as if green isn't even an option anymore.....because of those few reviews.........so now its blue or red. Again, amazing.....

RCBS has been a great company supporting our hobby for a long long time with a fantastic no fault warranty that Dillon copied 30 years ago, and who now takes the fame and credit for.

The second motion at the very bottom of the stroke is what pulls the lock out down and allows the measure to refil.

If you put a spring on a Lee, you can double charge with short strokes, just like you can with Hornady and RCBS measures.

I think RCBS’s biggest problem for the progressive press market, is that they have a history of abandoning presses so they would give you the parts for free, if they had them.

I think Hornady will give you a couple hundred dollars credit for their obsolete presses that break and you can’t get parts, if you buy a new LNL AP at full retail.

The changes to the Dillon’s over the years have been to save folks from themselves or to cure complaints. They just don’t tend to do the “clean sheet” like RCBS and that helps keep “teething problems” like the Pro Chuckers had to a minimum.

jmorris said:

The second motion at the very bottom of the stroke is what pulls the lock out down and allows the measure to refil.

If you put a spring on a Lee, you can double charge with short strokes, just like you can with Hornady and RCBS measures.

I think RCBS’s biggest problem for the progressive press market, is that they have a history of abandoning presses so they would give you the parts for free, if they had them.

I think Hornady will give you a couple hundred dollars credit for their obsolete presses that break and you can’t get parts, if you buy a new LNL AP at full retail.

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Nothing I load is long enough to double charge if I ever short stroked to index, I don't.
The case(s) never reach the dies.
And as mentioned in my sig line, I have 5 or so sized/cases put aside to plug-in if priming goes sideways, it rarely does, and I plug them in at the end of my run.
I won't say I have never had a double charge, but I have tweaked my process/loading habits to minimize them, and would probably notice the pile of powder around the case and on the shell plate.
Yup, plastic parts for the old P'back presses are no longer "around", I've had to resort to begging RCBS for one (only 1 plastic part, primer tube fits into it), but I now have the option of asking someone like you to print me some.

Edit: sorry, actually 2 plastic parts, one for each primer size tube.

Having cases overflow with a double is one way to do it and yes not everyone needs them, some guys don’t like the new linkages and turn them back into the original design.

Like I said some of them are for saving people from themselves. Like the 1050 for example, you physically cannot short stroke the press. Once you start down you can’t back up until you complete the stroke or manually override the safety device.

GW Staar: You are the man. I bow down to you. I have heard that there was someone that got the RCBC case feeder to work but with my limited experience, I thought it was imposable.

Last March I got a PM from a guy that needed help tuning his LNL Ammo-Plant. I tried to talk him through it but his English was a lot better than my Spanish but we still were not communicating. He sent me his phone number and we "talked" but still couldn't 't get through. I explained to him that I was driving to CA. in May and I would be happy to stop by. Well, he lives in a small town just southwest of Zion National Park. We got there in the early morning and I went to his reloading room. That is when I saw his Ammo-Plant and on the other end of the bench was this green press with 7 dies in it. At that point, I knew that I was going to be there a while so we sent our wives on a "2-hour" shopping trip even though neither one of the spoke any of the other's language.

Now, he had bought his Ammo-Plant used and it had been tweaked beyond the ability to make a single round of ammo. So I went to work on it first and within 15 min I had adjusted the press, case feeder, and bullet feeder to the point to where it was pounding out rounds. I then asked him about the green monster at the other end of his bench. He told me that he got everything working except the case feeder. I ask if I could try it and he told me to go for it. I was surprised by how smooth it was even the bullet feeder. I then ask him why he had not gotten the case feeder to work. He told me that he tried but couldn't get it to work and he had given up and besides, it didn't come with a "bucket" "Collator to you and me" and as soon as RCBS comes out with a better system it could sit. I asked him if he would let me try to get the case feeder to work because I figured his lack of the English language he might not be able to understand the instructions. After he gave me permission I tore into it. After 3 hours I had to admit defeat.

When RCBS comes out with a different case feeder and a "bucket" I'm getting me one of these things.

After 5 hours on the wives 2-hour shopping trip they returned. Come to find out they both spoke shopping fluently.

We spent an hour talking about what was in a picture frame surrounded by two American flags. It was his U.S. citizenship certificate.

After you posted your experience with the Pro Chucker I went back to my notes, to better remember, and need to correct my poor remembrance! (still amazed that you traveled all that way to help a Hornady owner.....you are a jewel of a guy)

I said in the post above, "you can see how smooth the press is and how well the feeder works after the fun two hours of tinkering." Boy that was simplifed......I know I'm getting forgetful, but....it took me 2 weeks!......so don't feel bad that you failed in 3 hours.....at someone elses house without tools.

I do need to post a new thread on how it was accomplished.....looking at the old report.....it sucks....worthless information. But then, RCBS is hinting at new products this summer......It would be really nice if they update their case feeder and PC7 owners can ignore my mods. I'll make a new thread anyway....and stop posting in this one.

Every year in early May my wife and I go either East or West to "as my wife says to visit our daughters" but it is really to visit the grandkids. Odd years to TN. and even years to CA. We always take a different route. So it's not a big deal in going 50 miles out of the way. Besides, it was our first visit to Zion National Park. It won't be our last.