Question on how the SAA was carried in the 19th century

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Driftwood Johnson said:
Howdy

These are the parts inside a Colt Single Action Army. The upper arrow is pointing to the so called 'safety cock' notch on the hammer. I shoot Colts all the time and I have never heard it called 1/4 cock. The lower arrow is pointing to the tip of the trigger called the sear. Notice how thin the sear is. With the sear in the 'safety cock' notch, it would not take much of a blow to the hammer spur to either shear off the overhanging lip of the 'safety cock' notch, or shear off the tip of the sear. This would allow the firing pin to jump forward and fire a cartridge under the hammer. If the gun were dropped onto a hard surface and landed on the hammer this is pretty much guaranteed to happen.Yes, it has happened many times, in fact dropping a stirrup of a saddle on the hammer spur while preparing to mount a horse could also result in an unexpected discharge, with the bullet hitting the unlucky recipient in the leg. Yes, it has happened. Because the parts are so delicate, it is absolutely unsafe to carry a Colt, or any single action revolver with a similar lockwork, completely loaded with six rounds and the hammer down on a live round. Even with the hammer in the 'safety cock' position.

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This is a Colt Single Action Army cylinder loaded with six spent 45 Colt rounds. If one were to place the firing pin between rims, there is very little space. The firing pin would be resting in the narrowest space between rims. I have tried this (with spent rounds like this). The firing pin absolutely will not prevent the cylinder from rotating. The bevel on the edges of the rims allows the rounded tip of the firing firing pin to ride up and over the rims. This technique is not a safe way to carry a Colt chambered for cartridges with large rims, such as 45 Colt, 44-40 or 38-40, which have larger diameter rims than 45 Colt. It might work for 44 Special, I have not tried. It would probably work for 357 Magnum or 38 Special, but I don't have a Colt chambered in those calibers to try.

View attachment 882573




Yes, the Police Positives had an internal hammer block. The square piece between the hammer and the frame in this Police Positive Special is the internal hammer block. Colt patented this design in 1905, and called it the Positive Lock. This is how the Police Positive series got their name. Once the trigger was released, the hammer block would rise up and wedge the hammer back from the frame.

View attachment 882574




As either the trigger was pulled, or the hammer cocked, the hammer block would be pulled down. This would allow the hammer to fall all the way to fire a cartridge. As soon as the trigger was released for another shot, the hammer block would rise again, shoving itself between the hammer and the frame.This hammer block was a positive mechanical hammer block. It was moved by the mechanical action of the lockwork. The early Smith and Wesson hammer blocks on the other hand relied on a spring to push the hammer block into the 'safe' position. In my humble opinion, the Colt design was better, as was proven in 1944 when a sailor was killed by a S&W revolver, probably a Victory Model falling to the deck of a warship and discharging. The investigation that followed showed that cosmoline in the mechanism had hardened, preventing the spring from pushing the hammer block into the 'safe' position. S&W changed their hammer block design right after that incident to the current hammer block which is mechanically activated by the lockwork.

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The way I heard it, the money in the empty chamber was for the undertaker. Other than Wild Bill, and a few others, not many Colt owners fired their Colts all that much in the Old West. I would suspect that a twenty collar bill rolled up in a chamber would stay fresh and uncharred for a long time.

I took these photos a few years ago when this same question came up in one of the gun forums. Here is a modern twenty dollar bill under the cylinder of a 32 caliber S&W #2 Old Army on the left and a Colt SAA 38-40 on the right.

View attachment 882576




The twenty does not fit inside the 32 chamber very well.

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It fits just fine in the Colt chamber, and this would probably be an excellent place to hide a little bit of money. Who is going to take away your pistol to find your money?

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Regarding how many rounds did 19th Century shooters load in their Colts? I'm sure those who actually understood these guns would only load five.

But as John Wayne said once, "If you think you're going to need six, load six."
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Thanks driftwood. I knew I read somewhere that the safety notch was prone to breaking if the hammer got bumped to hard. Probably read it in one of your previous posts honestly, LOL. But after seeing the picture it becomes pretty obvious that there not much meat on that little spur.
 
Dave T said:
No offense but I've carried traditional single actions (1st Gen Colts for a large part of that time) in 19th Century style leather and I cannot picture any way to do what you suggest. In what you are calling "1/4 cock" and what Colt called "safe" the hammer is still largely buried in the frame. It is only raised slightly versus the hammer all the way forward.

Dave
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Ratshooter said:
I don't think they had thumb break holsters way back then. I think those are a later 20th century invention. I guess you could use a tab of soft leather and cock the hammer, insert the leather between the hammer and frame and lower the hammer. Then when needed cock the hammer and yank out the leather tab. But I don't see that really being done.

I think this is more likely the correct answer.
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Well, I dont see why someone with a bit of leatherworking skill couldnt fabricate a piece of thong routed under the hammer and attached to the holster so it pulled away when the gun was drawn. Wouldnt help if it was dropped, but might protect against a sharp whack against a doorframe or something, which I think would have been a much more common hazard......

Not sayin it was done, just that a thoughtful person could have rigged up something. To me, having 1/6 of my ammunition unavailable over such a minor design hurdle would be really annoying.
 
NIGHTLORD40K said:
Well, I dont see why someone with a bit of leatherworking skill couldnt fabricate a piece of thong routed under the hammer and attached to the holster so it pulled away when the gun was drawn. Wouldnt help if it was dropped, but might protect against a sharp whack against a doorframe or something, which I think would have been a much more common hazard......
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If I didn't want to carry with an empty chamber I guess I would get a flap holster which should protect against impacts and then attach it to my body with a lanyard that way it couldn't be dropped on the hammer. And flap holsters have been around for a long time. But no matter to me. I don't have any single actions with this type of lockwork.
 
Load one, skip one, load four. This is the old adage for Colt SAA hand guns (Model 1873 aka Model P) and their many clones. If you need six rounds than load a sixth. But for normal carry the hammer rested on an empty chamber.

Now with some cap and ball guns Colt and others made there were spaces placed between the chambers to rest the hammer that prevented the cylinder from turning unless the hammer was cocked. But no such previsions were ever made on the Colt Model P.

On the Model P the safety notch was there in case the hammer slipped from the thumb while cocking or lowering the hammer. It would prevent the hammer from hitting the primer. It was not meant for the hammer to rest there while carrying.

The Army carried the gun with the hammer on an empty chamber. At least they were supposed to. Before an engagement they might load a 6th round.
 
The safety pins between Colt cap and ball nipples are small. A lot of well used percussion Colts will have the pins battered and rusted to nothing. The Remington notch is better. Note that Ruger Old Army has such notches.
 
The first time I ever heard of putting money in the empty chamber was a Ruger ad about their "New Model" revolver, which was safe to carry with 6 rounds. This was in 1980 (according to the copyright date on the ad).
Ruger, Empty Chamber.jpg

In SIXGUNS (might have been HELL, I WAS THERE, but I'm pretty certain it was SIXGUNS) Elmer tells about a holster modification. A small piece of leather (maybe a half inch by a half inch) with a hole in it was sewn to the top front of the holster. Somehow (and I can't quite figure out how this worked) you would holster the cocked gun, letting down the hammer so that the firing pin went through the hole in the piece of leather. The thickness of the leather prevented the firing pin from touching the primer, so you can safely carry six. And since the first thing you did when you drew was to cock the gun, the hammer came free from the piece of leather on the draw.
 
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The Army tended to issue revolver ammo in mutiples of six.

Digging real deep into the western lore depository, one finds that the "extra" sixth round from leaving an empty chamber was carried in your shirt pocket as an insurance policy for not getting captured alive by the indians.

Believe it or not...
 
the Real Alpo said:
The first time I ever heard of putting money in the empty chamber was a Ruger ad about their "New Model" revolver, which was safe to carry with 6 rounds. This was in 1980 (according to the copyright date on the ad).
View attachment 882687

In SIXGUNS (might have been HELL, I WAS THERE, but I'm pretty certain it was SIXGUNS) Elmer tells about a holster modification. A small piece of leather (maybe a half inch by a half inch) with a hole in it was sewn to the top front of the holster. Somehow (and I can't quite figure out how this worked) you would holster the cocked gun, letting down the hammer so that the firing pin went through the hole in the piece of leather. The thickness of the leather prevented the firing pin from touching the primer, so you can safely carry six. And since the first thing you did when you drew was to cock the gun, the hammer came free from the piece of leather on the draw.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that ad page..
 
As a former Cowboy Action shooter I'm used to loading SA revolvers with the hammer resting on an empty chamber. This was strictly enforced in CAS even if the guns are Rugers that have the modern transfer bar system. However I believe that there were circumstances when even experienced gunmen switched to carrying with all chambers loaded.

From my perspective if I knew that I was about to get into a gunfight & I was carrying a SAA I would not be overly concerned about the gun firing accidentally if I carried on a loaded chamber. Under life or death circumstances I would be much more concerned about needing that 6th shot to survive and not having it. This must have been especially true for our cavalry soldiers before they charged the enemy and who were very well aware of how slow & difficult it it is to reload a SA revolver while sitting on a moving horse in the heat of battle.

I think carrying the Colt SAA on an empty chamber is a must except when you know you are about to get into a gunfight.
 
Sounds like a "+1" debate of the 19th century.

My guess, 5 shots to take out a rattle snake or put down a horse/cattle or make your point to an aggressor would be enough. It really takes no effort to thumb in a 6th round if you were a Marshall knocking on doors. My guess is that 5 would be enough 95% of the time.
 
Charlie Martinez said:
As a former Cowboy Action shooter I'm used to loading SA revolvers with the hammer resting on an empty chamber. This was strictly enforced in CAS even if the guns are Rugers that have the modern transfer bar system. However I believe that there were circumstances when even experienced gunmen switched to carrying with all chambers loaded.

From my perspective if I knew that I was about to get into a gunfight & I was carrying a SAA I would not be overly concerned about the gun firing accidentally if I carried on a loaded chamber. Under life or death circumstances I would be much more concerned about needing that 6th shot to survive and not having it. This must have been especially true for our cavalry soldiers before they charged the enemy and who were very well aware of how slow & difficult it it is to reload a SA revolver while sitting on a moving horse in the heat of battle.

I think carrying the Colt SAA on an empty chamber is a must except when you know you are about to get into a gunfight.
Click to expand...

It's also the case that there was a long tradition of carrying more than one revolver in the cavalry. The Colt Walker was carried a big gun. It was often carried in pommel holsters.
 
tipoc said:
It's also the case that there was a long tradition of carrying more than one revolver in the cavalry. The Colt Walker was carried a big gun. It was often carried in pommel holsters.
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I'm not too sure of that. Yes, the Texas Rangers were each issued two Paterson Colts, mostly because they were slow to reload. I can't say for sure about Walkers, perhaps so because they too were slow to reload.

I have just searched through my copy of A Study of the Colt Single Action Revolver by John Kopec and I cannot find any references to troops being issued more than one SAA. Rather, in the early days, the SAA was in short supply and high demand. So I suspect each trooper was only issued one.
 
Thank you Driftwood for your excellent post and pictures. You have taught me a lot over the past few years. :)
 
One of my old Gun Digests had an article on horse pistol holsters.
There were various combinations of 1855 single shot, its attachable shoulder stock, and a Dragoon Revolver.
 
Folks, thanks for all the interesting posts, especially the reference to Wyatt Earp's "accident". Thanks Driftwood for the always excellent info and pictures.
 
RON in PA said:
Nowadays we are strongly advised to load and carry SAA revolvers with five rounds only, hammer down on an empty chamber. The first click when cocking the hammer is the "safe" position that theoretically allows carry with six rounds. Is it known what was commonly done in the 19th century by the US Cavalry and law enforcement who carried the SAA?
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I suspect that over time, the common method went from six loaded chambers with the hammer on the half cock (quarter cock, safety cock, whatever ) to 5 loaded with the hammer down on an empty chamber, as word got around of ADs from broken/slipped half cocks.
 
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