Is it safe to carry a full cylinder in old pre-war S&W DAs?

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.455_Hunter

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Greetings,

I have read somewhere that S&W upgraded the safety system on their revolvers during WWII and that older guns should be carried on a empty chamber like the Colt SAA.

Why is this?

On my 1913 (or so) production I-frame .32, the rebounding hammer appears to work just as good as any later design, and seems just as safe as my 70's vintage M28-2.

Other old M&Ps, Heavy Dutys, M1917s that I have seen work the same way.

What is the problem?

Thanks for your comments.

Hunter
 
Smith has been safe for 6 for over a hundred years.
The safety system was "upgraded", but the old system was fine.
I have shot and carried Smith revolvers foa over 35 years , and have never had any sort of problem carrying the full capacity.
They only Smiths that might warrant extra care are the older top break revolvers.
Another internet myth.

Mark
 
As I understand it the "new" safety hammer block was incorporated into the M&P design in 1943 or 1944 at the request of the Navy; a sailor had dropped his Victory onto the deck, it discharged and killed him. This is, I believe, a matter of historical record, I can't provide a source now but should be able to latter today. Many consider the pre-hammer block revolvers to be perfectly safe, and feel the chances of an AD to be so low as to not worry about it and carry six up, many others do not. Given the availability of modern revolvers with the sliding hammer safety block I feel its reasonable and prudent to only carry fully loaded in a revolver with the "new" hammer safety block, but its your decision.

To clarify - this has nothing to do with that infernal Internal Lock (IL) Smith devised this century - I bet some grump like me was bitching about the "new" hammer block in 1945 also.
 
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I side with Will on this: if you DO have a problem with the old system and God forbid you hurt somebody else, you're carrying something you know to be "not as good" (to at least SOME degree) as the post-war system.

To me, that's a bad idea, *especially* for urban street carry.
 
For the record......The infamous Navy Victory Model M&P was found to have a hammer block safety crudded up with heavy preservative grease, but............If one examines a pre-war M&P, there is a curious feature. The firing pin does not extend past the recoil plate with the hammer at rest. The hammer cannot be pushed forward, even with the sideplate (and hammer block) removed. Curious indeed. The Victory Model that fatally discharged on the Navy vessel, and which led to the improved hammer block must have had a broken part in addition to a crudded up early hammer block. This parts breakage could have happened as a result of the fall to the ship's deck, or perhaps things were not all as they appeared in NISville.

By contrast, a Colt SAA has a firing pin that extends past the recoil plate and rests on the primer. The Colt SAA is not really safe to carry with a full cylinder, leading to a load one, skip one, load four more protocol. Other, inexpensive "suicide specials" are similar in that the firing pin either extends past the recoil plate, or can if the hammer is pushed forward.

The S&W Hand Ejector though, is another animal. The firing pin does not rest on the primer. A part, such as the hammer itself, must break internally for the firing pin to reach the primer without the trigger being pulled. Thus, it is safe, in my opinion, to carry with a full cylinder......unless one is concerned about spontaneous part failure.

There are some who would say a 1911 is unsafe without a firing pin safety. Others get all upset when they see a cocked and locked 1911. Many other authorities say it is quite safe to carry a 1911 cocked and locked. Some of these same folks though, advise that a pre-war M&P be carried with 5 rounds. It's my contention that they must have never examined the workings of the gun, and are just carrying on old habits learned (correctly) concerning the old Colt SAA. There is no other way I can explain the discrepancy between the two different conclusions.

In the end, you have to look at the gun itself, and make your own determination. I, myself, believe it is safe to carry a full cylinder in a S&W Hand Ejector.
 
All Smith & Wesson hand ejector revolvers, and some top-break models, have a provision within the mechanism to rebound that hammer after a cartridge is fired. That is to say that the hammer (and firing pin) is rotated backward far enough so that the firing pin is drawn into the breech face far enough so that the firing pin doesn’t rest on the cartridge case head. This is accomplished by a part called the rebound slide that serves several purposes. First it cams the hammer backward and then blocks if from further movement, and second, it pushes the trigger forward. I’ll call this “safety #1.

As a safety device it was flawed, in that the hammer was blocked at the very bottom. A hard blow might cause the hammer to spring enough to let a firing pin hit a primer, or in rare cases the stud on which the hammer revolved might break, and then a blow on the hammer would fire a cartridge that was in front of the firing pin.

While accidents related to the above were highly uncommon, S&W realized the potential, and they were further spurred on by Colt’s advertising, that after about 1908 pointed out that their revolvers not only had a rebound feature similar to that in Smith & Wesson’s, but also a second, independent safety that blocked the hammer just under the firing pin. They referred to it as a “positive safety” that Smith & Wesson’s didn’t have.

Smith & Wesson responded by installing safety #2, a hammer block in the sideplate, that was operated by the hand. But as previous posts have noted, dirt or heavy grease could defeat it. The block was also on the delicate side, and sometimes cracked and became non-functional. Also this second safety was not installed in all models, in particular some early N-frames such as the Model 1917.

When the Navy suffered an accident in 1944, known as the “battleship incident,” S&W was pressed to do something, and too do it quickly! To their credit they did, by adapting a Colt’s style safety to their own lockwork. The result was so perfect that the same safety is still used today.

From a personal point of view, I greatly enjoy older S&W revolvers because of the wonderful craftsmanship they represent. But I seldom carry one as a weapon that doesn’t have the current style hammer block (used in most models from 1945 to present). I have found that there is little risk in carrying 5 rounds and the hammer down on the empty chamber while having serious shoot-outs with tin cans and paper targets. I began the 5-round technique when I started carrying Colt Single Action revolvers, and soon found myself doing the same with other revolvers carried for non-defensive purposes. Over a long lifetime nothing ever caused me to change my mind, and there is no safer way to carry a revolver, regardless of when it was made, or who made it.

Others of course can do it differently.
 
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