Shipping C&R Handguns

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Terry G

Terry G

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I had an unsolicited offer on a C&R handgun that I was thinking of taking, but I'm not sure of the method. We both have C&R license's, so could USPS be used? If not UPS or FEDEX? Thanks for any help!
 
Last I heard a handgun cannot be shipped by the post office. If that includes black powder guns, who knows?
 
Dfwkid said:
Handguns still have to be shipped by FedEx, UPS, not the postal service.
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Modern Handguns, Yes.
Since it's a C&R (and I didn't have any other info) I wasn't sure if it would qualify under 431.3.

Basically if it's 1898 or older and doesn't except cartridges or takes an obsolete cartridge that's not readily available via normal commercial channels it's mailable.

Edit: Or Replica of.
 
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94045 said:
Basically if it's 1898 or older and doesn't except cartridges or takes an obsolete cartridge that's not readily available via normal commercial channels it's mailable.
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I detect a basic misunderstanding here. The original question was about a "C&R" not about an antique. In fact there is no overlap between the two. An "antique" is (1) any gun made before 1899, or (2) a modern replica, such as a flintlock, percussion lock, etc., that does not use readily available cartridges. A "C&R" is a gun made after 1898, up to 50 years prior to the current date, that uses cartridges.
 
AlexanderA said:
... A "C&R" is a gun made after 1898, up to 50 years prior to the current date, that uses cartridges.
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Nope.
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...ec96ca7e&mc=true&node=se27.3.478_111&rgn=div8
Curios or relics. Firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:
(a) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof;
(b) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
(c) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector's items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.
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As noted by paragraphs (b) & (c) being age fifty isn't always required.
ATF publishes a list of firearms deemed C&R that are not yet fifty years old.
 
AlexanderA said:
I detect a basic misunderstanding here. The original question was about a "C&R" not about an antique. In fact there is no overlap between the two. An "antique" is (1) any gun made before 1899, or (2) a modern replica, such as a flintlock, percussion lock, etc., that does not use readily available cartridges. A "C&R" is a gun made after 1898, up to 50 years prior to the current date, that uses cartridges.
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I read past the point where he stated it was an C&R, I saw where he stated shipper and receiver was C&R. The way I read the regs an antique handgun can only be mailed from a C&R to a C&R (Not unlicensed individuals).
 
We're talking a Model 1895 Nagant made in 1935. Is ammunition readily available? That would have to be Yes. It would be 03 to 03. UPS cost is just this side of outrageous.
 
My interpretation is that because it takes cartridges and they are available via normal commercial channels a C&R couldn't mail it.

But I would default to those who have posted here with more knowledge. If you have a friendly FFL I would see if it could be shipped through him at lower cost.
 
Captcurt said:
Unless you are a licensed dealer. Don't think that a C&R meets the requirements. Shipping USPS requires filling out a 1508 form and leaving a copy of the FFL.
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I don't think it does either now that we know what it is. If it had been an 1861 Colt Navy or Model 95 Derringer in .41 Short Rimfire built in 1898 it would have been permissable under 432.2 a.

At least that's my interpretation.

PS They would have required a copy of his C&R FFL.
 
94045 said:
432.2 a

Right out of your own supplied reference.
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You need to read that reference:
432.2a Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 431.2 and the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 may be mailed between curio and relic collectors only when those firearms also meet the definition of an antique firearm under 431.3.

See that underlined part? Thats why C&R's cannot mail C&R handguns.
 
Captcurt said:
Unless you are a licensed dealer. Don't think that a C&R meets the requirements. Shipping USPS requires filling out a 1508 form and leaving a copy of the FFL.
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Careful.

-Anyone can ship a firearm other than a rifle or shotgun via USPS.
-Only licensed dealers and manufacturers can mail firearms other than rifles or shotguns. Everyone should note that USPS defines "Handgun" differently than does ATF. Any "firearm capable of being concealed on the person" is classified by USPS as a "Handgun" for the purposes of mailing.
-Only licensed dealers and manufacturers can complete and sign the Form 1508 "Statement by Shipper of Firearms".......if you are not a licensed dealer or manufacturer you NEVER submit that form.
-No USPS/UPS/FedEx regulation, policy or tariff requires any copy of the FFL at any place or any time and never has. Ever.
 
94045 said:
I don't think it does either now that we know what it is. If it had been an 1861 Colt Navy or Model 95 Derringer in .41 Short Rimfire built in 1898 it would have been permissable under 432.2 a.

At least that's my interpretation.

PS They would have required a copy of his C&R FFL.
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No carrier requires this, not USPS, UPS or FedEx.
Now, you may run accross an employee that THINKS they need it.....they don't.
 
There is no doubt that FFLs can use the Post Office to ship handguns to each other. That occurs all the time. The OP's question should be simple (in spite of all the confusion above), is a C&R licensee a valid license holder under Post Office regulations? I looked at the Post Office regulations in the link provided by dogtown tom in post #9, and I did not see a clear answer to that question. Does anyone know about that specific issue?
 
dogtown tom said:
You need to read that reference:
432.2a Firearms meeting the definition of a handgun under 431.2 and the definition of curios or relics under 27 CFR 478.11 may be mailed between curio and relic collectors only when those firearms also meet the definition of an antique firearm under 431.3.

See that underlined part? Thats why C&R's cannot mail C&R handguns.
Click to expand...

I know, I already started in a different post that I missed that the handgun was a C&R and not just a transfer between C&Rs. My issue was with the blanket statement that C&Rs could not mail handguns. Apparently that can if they meet all the requirements of 432.2a and 431.3. As I stated I believe a cap and ball revolver (or replica) or a cartridge handgun built in 1998 or before (or a replica thereof) in a obsolete caliber like many rimfires would be permissable.

The referenced document also uses unusual terminology as it refers to Handguns that are C&R that also meet 431.3 (ie antiques) so the post office terminology is inconsistent with how the terms are normally used exclusive of one or the other not both.
 
"is a C&R licensee a valid license holder under Post Office regulations? I looked at the Post Office regulations in the link provided by dogtown tom in post #9, and I did not see a clear answer to that question. Does anyone know about that specific issue?

Surely nobody in the USPS. My postmaster accepts my 03FFL and a 1508 without a problem for anything I ship. I only discuss it with him, not the nasty, nosy counter ladies who don't seem to understand the first thing about postal regs.
 
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