I couldn't do that 2700 bullseye with a rifle (I don't think).
What Constitutes Accurate Shooting
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I couldn't do that 2700 bullseye with a rifle (I don't think).
walnut1704
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If you shoot enough, you will shoot some amazing groups...occasionally. This is totally meaningless. Unless you can do it on demand.
We all pull one here and there. What I do is define a standard...say 3" at 15 yards. Keep a running score of your % of hits. When you get into the high 90%'s reduce the size of the target, or move it out to a longer range, and start over.
For me, I can shoot 3" at 15 yards in the high 90%'s with a gun I like. Of course this means sometimes I shoot 2 1/2". Sometimes I shoot less than an 1" for the first 5 rounds. But I can't do that consistently so it doesn't mean a thing.
I can tell you this for certain from my experience: Damn few off-the-shelf guns can shoot 1" at 25 yards, even from a machine rest, on a consistent basis. I would say "none" but there's bound to be a few flukes out there. The exception might be the single-shot Contenders.
Most U.S. revolvers and the higher end production 1911's can do 2" at 25 yards consistently. No doubt some others, like some of the SIGs. There's enough gun tests that have been published with sandbag or machine rest testing to come to these conclusions.
We all pull one here and there. What I do is define a standard...say 3" at 15 yards. Keep a running score of your % of hits. When you get into the high 90%'s reduce the size of the target, or move it out to a longer range, and start over.
For me, I can shoot 3" at 15 yards in the high 90%'s with a gun I like. Of course this means sometimes I shoot 2 1/2". Sometimes I shoot less than an 1" for the first 5 rounds. But I can't do that consistently so it doesn't mean a thing.
I can tell you this for certain from my experience: Damn few off-the-shelf guns can shoot 1" at 25 yards, even from a machine rest, on a consistent basis. I would say "none" but there's bound to be a few flukes out there. The exception might be the single-shot Contenders.
Most U.S. revolvers and the higher end production 1911's can do 2" at 25 yards consistently. No doubt some others, like some of the SIGs. There's enough gun tests that have been published with sandbag or machine rest testing to come to these conclusions.
These guys are Gods. I take pictures to encourage myself that it is humanly possible to shoot as well as they do. I am occasionally shooting Expert class scores, and this is after seven years of competition.
This is a real good shot, he fired his last round at 25 yards just as the target turned.
Pretty good group except the one that was counted as a "zero"
WVsig
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I shoot ken Hackathorn & Larry Vickers “10/10/10 The Test” cold which is 10 rounds in 10 seconds at 10 yards. I can keep all my shots in B7 for the draw.
But this is not about me. I do not consider myself a precession shooter. I am barley an accurate shooter. I have seen enough really accurate shooters to know the difference.
WVsig
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The other day at the range I saw a guy shooting 25 yard bullseye shooting with a 22LR and 45 ACP 1911 and was shooting groups like that. It was amazing to watch.
ShootingIsFun
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I've been grappling with this as well... Add the boredom of a square range to the cost of shooting + consider my lack of free time (3 kids + life responsibilities) ... It's been a long time since I've been shooting...
I missed that. Federal LE45T1 which is 230 +P and is usually in the 830-860 fps range out of the Shield.
I bought a good bit that was Police Trade.
Trey Veston
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I guess it depends on your parameters. You can state that very few production guns can shoot 1" at 25 yards and I can show you that three of my cheap, off-the shelf pistols can do it. Then you add the word, "consistently". What is consistently? I can get 1" or better groups more than once, but not every time at the range, and that is due to me and not the gun. If you want to add more restrictions, like only off-the shelf ammo, then no, I don't think I've ever gotten a 1" group from a factory pistol using factory ammo.
2" at 25 yards, 5-shots, with a rest, slow fire, is easy. I make sure every single one of my carry guns is capable of that kind of accuracy. Are all pistols capable of it? No. But my XDS 40 has never shot over 2" at 25 yards. That's pretty consistent. And that was with factory ammo. My new P365 that I shot for the first time a couple of days ago got 2" groups at 25 yards (with reloads).
So, I guess I disagree that 1" capable pistols are unicorns unless you state cheap ammo and 1" groups every single time. And I disagree that 2" guns are only 1911s and revolvers, because out of a dozen pistols I own, all but 2 are capable of that.
For me it's all about combat accuracy. I shoot defensive pistol matches. As long as I, in practice, can keep my speed up AND keep all my shots on a 6" paper plate I'm happy.
I really still need to work on my speed. But the last match I had 6 perfect stages out of 8. That put me in 4th place out of 24.
I really still need to work on my speed. But the last match I had 6 perfect stages out of 8. That put me in 4th place out of 24.
Trey Veston
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I got into GSSF matches and had a great time, but I now work graves and weekends, so no more matches for me. Plus, transitioning to the P365, so would like to be able to compete with it.
All of those groups represent accurate shooting.
That kind of shooting is fun.
It can be useful.
But it would not be the way to defend oneself in a parking lot or a service station.
Consider a violent attacker moving at five meters per second, closing from, say, six meters, and starting before you draw.
Consider the time in which you have to draw, score hits, and stop him.
Understand that realistically, you may have to hit him two, thee, four or more times to do that.
Then decide on what you would like to do in terms of a balance of speed and precision.
That kind of shooting is fun.
It can be useful.
But it would not be the way to defend oneself in a parking lot or a service station.
Consider a violent attacker moving at five meters per second, closing from, say, six meters, and starting before you draw.
Consider the time in which you have to draw, score hits, and stop him.
Understand that realistically, you may have to hit him two, thee, four or more times to do that.
Then decide on what you would like to do in terms of a balance of speed and precision.
Totally agree. A target paper don't move and don't shoot. It's important to have a good, accurate reliable pistol that shoots POA with the choosen ammo but in a death/life situation you are not going to know how good you will react and if you will survive.
WVsig
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illinoisburt
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Accurate handgun shooting? I've been around some fantastic shooters in my life. Yes there are people who can shoot a handgun like a veritable laser beam. Is that me? Nope! And it aint the vast majority of the world either despite what the interweb claims. Anyone who can step up to the line with a stock handgun and unload a box of ammo rapid fire into a 10" plate at 25 yards without a miss is doing far better than probably 95% of gun owners.
WVsig
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True but that does not mean some of the people here cannot do it. I am more of a minute of man shooter at 25 and 50 yards. I can ring IDPA steel at that range consistently but not at rapid speed.
illinoisburt
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I suspect THR members are a teeny-tiny segment of the shooting public
You never really know what you will have to do. It might be a T-Box Shot at 15 yards or a mag dump at 15". I think training only for the 80% Situation is a mistake.
I saw an article recently where a victim was blocked in by a perpetrator after leaving the ATM and had to exit the vehicle and make a fighting retreat. Despite being wounded twice the perpetrator continued to shoot at the victim as he ran away and an essentially "running gun battle" ensued. An officer "off the record" opinioned that taking cover behind the engine block and suspension of a car in the parking lot and returning fire would have been a better course of action. I for one had rather take that shot at 25 yards than allow the perpetrator to close to 7 yards.
The perpetrator died of his wounds but very well could have taken the victim with him.
WVsig
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A defensive shot at 25 yards and you are asking questions about "what constitutes accuracy".
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A defensive shot at 25 yards and you are asking questions about "what constitutes accuracy".
Would you advise intentionally allowing someone shooting at you to close the range?
"What Constitutes Accurate Shooting"
There is accuracy , and then there is accuracy.
Personally , I am not consistent when it comes to producing tight groupings on static targets. Some days I do well , other days I launch a lot of flyers. Psychology and personality come into play. I lack the patience and attention span to be good at regular target work. I realize and admit that. In a group of average regular shooters I will be mid-group or a bit below when it comes to paced target shooting. On the other hand - put me in front of an array of hanging steel targets and I am above average. .22 steel plate - love it. I go around 3.1 seconds for 5 targets. Texas star in 5 shots - great. Rapid fire on multiple reactive targets brings out my best. I also do well in simulation exercises.
I wish that I was better at static targets , but I can live with it. In terms of recreational shooting translating into self defense , I think that moving rapidly between 6-8" targets , some of which are in motion , and getting high percentages of rapid fire hits constitutes good training.
I've decided to relax and go with what works , not dwelling on the weakness areas. The bad gut will not be standing still holding a bullseye.
There is accuracy , and then there is accuracy.
Personally , I am not consistent when it comes to producing tight groupings on static targets. Some days I do well , other days I launch a lot of flyers. Psychology and personality come into play. I lack the patience and attention span to be good at regular target work. I realize and admit that. In a group of average regular shooters I will be mid-group or a bit below when it comes to paced target shooting. On the other hand - put me in front of an array of hanging steel targets and I am above average. .22 steel plate - love it. I go around 3.1 seconds for 5 targets. Texas star in 5 shots - great. Rapid fire on multiple reactive targets brings out my best. I also do well in simulation exercises.
I wish that I was better at static targets , but I can live with it. In terms of recreational shooting translating into self defense , I think that moving rapidly between 6-8" targets , some of which are in motion , and getting high percentages of rapid fire hits constitutes good training.
I've decided to relax and go with what works , not dwelling on the weakness areas. The bad gut will not be standing still holding a bullseye.
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AZAndy
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The NRA pistol instructor test requires a 3" group at ten yards, which is about what I consider adequate competence. I'd have to be using a crappy gun, or having a bad day, to not be able to at least do that well. One thing I like to work at is the fastest and most accurate draw-and-fire. Can I draw and hit within 3" of my point of aim (at ten yards) in a second a half or less? If I need to stop somebody fast, that first shot is going to count for a lot.
I wouldn't be disappointed in the target the OP showed, but I'd take it as a sign that I need to work on consistency a bit. Come to think of it, I already do need to work on that.
I wouldn't be disappointed in the target the OP showed, but I'd take it as a sign that I need to work on consistency a bit. Come to think of it, I already do need to work on that.
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