Not mainstream cartridges/ caliber

IMHO it may just make it. A great cartridge for straight case deer states, and hogs. A nice hunting round for medium game under 200 yards.

Isn't it the same case that can be made from .223 if you reload? and takes a .358 Bullet? Think that's what I saw when I was looking at this cartridge. Not sure what that tells me, but it is interesting that the components are essentially very common, so - could be around a log time, if it is say comparable or better than .357 in a rifle.

We have a handful of extensive threads about the Legend. The luddites still hate everything new. A bunch of folks got screwed by brass too thick to load to SAAMI specs. But overall, it’s a beautiful “2lb hammer.” Hard hitting, but not so heavy recoiling that it becomes hard to handle (12lb sledge). It shoots flat enough to be more easily managed than the other AR-15 Thumpers, and ammo is looking to be affordable and pretty broadly available.

film495 said:

Isn't it the same case that can be made from .223 if you reload?

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No. It shouldn’t be made from 223 brass. Although it MIGHT yield sufficiently thin necks to alleviate some issues guys are having with factory brass - but I haven’t looked at the relative trim length implications.

I’ve begun seeing the ammo pretty regular at some local shops and they are selling AR’s and Bolt guns in it so the manufacturers are placing their bets on it. It’s hard to beat for the straight case and AR crowd, but if I wanted something like that I’d rather have a pump in 35 rem myself.

I think the Legend is still on the fence. Big W made a lot of mistakes rolling this one out, and it's cooled a lot of people on it. As above, it is a cool round, and can be reloaded with some relatively common components, although .358 pistol bullets or .358 rifle bullets are not optimal for it's performance level.

film495 said:

Isn't it the same case that can be made from .223 if you reload? and takes a .358 Bullet? Think that's what I saw when I was looking at this cartridge. Not sure what that tells me, but it is interesting that the components are essentially very common, so - could be around a log time, if it is say comparable or better than .357 in a rifle.

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No, it's not made from 223 brass, and I believe it uses a 9mm bullet instead of a 357 (there has been some confusion on that). It might make it, but honestly, I hope it crashes and Burns and is reintroduced under a different name based on the 223 case and a 357 bullet. Stupid Winchester trying something fancy instead of just copying the 357 are max.

Electricmo said:

making my own brass from parent cases or reloading what I have used.

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If one handloads, no cartridge is non-mainstream.

greyling22 said:

I believe it uses a 9mm bullet instead of a 357

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The only people confused are folks who read Facebook for info, instead of SAAMI specs. The specification is .357”-0.003” bullets. It is NOT specified for common 9mm bullets, which are specified at .355”-0.003”. Unfortunately, brass manufacturers are failing to hit appropriate maximum spec to fit minimum spec chambers around the specified bullet diameters, so many folks have punted to using undersized bullets. The spec remains - the Legend should chamber any bullet .357”-0.003”, if it does not, then your brass is over-spec.

I am ALWAYS in favor of cartridge development. Go guys!!!

Having said that, I was called a Luddite above: I guess I’ll accept that. I used to be a ‘how many cartridges can I have in case ammo becomes illega’l. Now I am, what do I need to fill any niche I might come into contact with. At this point, then I can stockpile as money allows. the only real Uber-common cartridges I don’t have are the 7mmRM and the now ubiquitous 6.5CM. Will I get either of them? Perhaps. At this point I would trade my Swede for the CM, but I am still too concerned with ammo being made illegal to get into weird stuff. Get more of what I have to weather the storm.
But, yes! Do it! Get the Legend! Develop, keep the science rolling!

greg

Just get what you need now and don’t worry about it.

Someone will still be shooting 7mm BR long after I am dead and turned into dust because the amount I have stocked up.

I wouldn’t worry about it too much, heck you can still get Winchester super short magnum brass if you look for it and they have been dead, for all practical purposes, for years.

If you search you can still find EtronX primers and those rifles were dead before they were purchased.

greyling22 said:

No, it's not made from 223 brass, and I believe it uses a 9mm bullet instead of a 357 (there has been some confusion on that). It might make it, but honestly, I hope it crashes and Burns and is reintroduced under a different name based on the 223 case and a 357 bullet. Stupid Winchester trying something fancy instead of just copying the 357 are max.

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Correct. Same case head as .223 but you can't make Legend brass from .223 as the internal case taper is different. It also uses .355 bullets and not .357/8 bullets.

Texas10mm said:

Correct. Same case head as .223 but you can't make Legend brass from .223 as the internal case taper is different. It also uses .355 bullets and not .357/8 bullets.

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It is the external taper that is different. 350 Legend is a rebated cartridge like 450 Bushmaster. The body of the cartridge ahead of the extractor grove is larger .390" in diameter than the rim .378". It share a the same rim diameter with 223/556 but the body diameter is what makes forming 350 Legend from 223/556 difficult. @Varminterror will be along to set you straight on the bullet diameter. I have already stated my "tinfoil hat" theories in several other threads and will not make him suffer them again here.

Personally I think if you already had a 9mm suppressor. This cartridge could be extraordinarily useful and flexible. More than enough power to ethically hunt deer, hogs, coyotes, etc out to ~200 yards, meets straight-wall state hunting regulation in all or nearly all states that have them. With good sub-sonic loads it should outperform a 300 BO. And you can get all this with just a barrel and magazine change for you standard AR. Thus creating a configuration as you like is pretty easy.

That said the launch by Winchester et al has been a mess of sorts. The bullet diameter issue (whatever theory you hold as to the cause) and the fact that the brass can't be formed from 223/556 when there was a very similar wildcat that was growing in popularity that could be. I think the cartridge has potential despite its rocky start.

I've owned quite a few oddball cartridges over the years and understand the appeal. I've since gotten rid of them in favor of more common rounds. The only thing I still own that would be considered out of the mainstream are a G20 and G29 in 10mm. But those guns and the 10mm cartridge fill a small, but important niche for me that no other gun or cartridge can fill.

Coming to the conclusion that pretty much any centerfire rifle cartridge between 26 and 35 caliber will all kill the same game animals with careful bullet selection played a big part in making the decision for me to thin the herd. I'm just at a point in my life where simplifying was the right thing to do. I scratched the itch for trying everything years ago.

But within the last few years changing laws in several states have created the need for a specific type of cartridge and the 350 fills that niche nicely. Given the option of using it and other more common cartridges where I hunt, I wouldn't use it. But if I lived in a state where cartridge choices were more limited it would be a top choice. And I think there is enough demand for it that it isn't going to fade away.

I'm amazed at how everyone is jumping on the 350 Legend bandwagon. Almost any company that builds an AR offers it. There are plenty of bolt gun options.

What should have been a real niche cartridge seems to have caught on in the AR world. An inexpensive, standard length, big bore cartridge with major support behind it.

I might even have to build one or at least get an upper.

I don't have any particular input to offer on this cartridge, but in general I've never allowed ammo/component scarcity to prevent me from buying a rifle I find appealing in an unusual chambering.

Case in point was the 8.15x46R Mauser single shot I bought a couple years ago: new cases are pretty scarce so case reforming is almost unavoidable, bullet diameter is odd, reloading data is almost nil. Just about every aspect of this ammo has to be hand-tailored just to make the rifle go bang, but I love this gun dearly and wouldn't consider rechambering it for the world. The same should hold true for a new or outlier cartridge you prefer over other, more common offerings: if it speaks to you, just stockpile enough cases to last and enjoy it sans angst.

About the only real issue I see is if you plan to resell later on -- oddball cartridge availability can affect resale values to a degree.

The Legend has potential to become very popular because it can cross over from the AR crowd who want a mid-bore cartridge for deer, hogs or steel thumping...to the bolt action folks who also want a mild-recoil straight wall case for the same reasons. Since ammo costs aren’t anywhere near as high as many of the others that fill the same niche, the Legend should continue to be a popular choice for new gun buyers.

It’ll never be the .30-06 or .270, bit I don’t think it’ll die out anytime soon.

Stay safe.

Varminterror said:

The only people confused are folks who read Facebook for info, instead of SAAMI specs. The specification is .357”-0.003” bullets. It is NOT specified for common 9mm bullets, which are specified at .355”-0.003”. Unfortunately, brass manufacturers are failing to hit appropriate maximum spec to fit minimum spec chambers around the specified bullet diameters, so many folks have punted to using undersized bullets. The spec remains - the Legend should chamber any bullet .357”-0.003”, if it does not, then your brass is over-spec.

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I know the chamber spec, but didn't some of the early reports of both the winchester ammo, and the barrels, spec out at .355 or something smaller than .358?

Just looked and it looks like Hornady has brought out a couple of winners specific for this cartridge. https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/928? I still think it's on the fence though. Winchester didn't do themselves any favors with the confusion on bore diameter. I think they were trying to keep a proprietary aspect with .355 bores to sell people more ammo and make it difficult to reload. You'd think they would have learned from the 6,5 creedmoor.

Varminterror said:

The only people confused are folks who read Facebook for info, instead of SAAMI specs. The specification is .357”-0.003” bullets. It is NOT specified for common 9mm bullets, which are specified at .355”-0.003”. Unfortunately, brass manufacturers are failing to hit appropriate maximum spec to fit minimum spec chambers around the specified bullet diameters, so many folks have punted to using undersized bullets. The spec remains - the Legend should chamber any bullet .357”-0.003”, if it does not, then your brass is over-spec.

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greyling22 said:

I know the chamber spec, but didn't some of the early reports of both the winchester ammo, and the barrels, spec out at .355 or something smaller than .358?

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Yes, people who measured the factory loads found Winchester was loading it with bullets measuring 0.354" to 0.355".

The SAAMI-specified diameter for the 350 Legend projectile is smaller than that of other .35-cal rifle cartridges. The 350 Legend is 0.357" - 0.003", whereas the rest of them are 0.3585" or 0.359" - 0.003".

And the barrel groove diameter (0.355" + 0.002") matches the 9mm Luger (0.355" + 0.004"), not the .358" rifle cartridges (which are 0.357" or 0.358" + 0.002").

.257 Roberts, old and proven and making a comeback. It will do the job in North America shy of a Grizzly. new calibers don't interest a 66 year old guy like me. Don't need nothing else

The bore diameter spec for 350 Legend doesn’t match conventional rifle cartridge specs which utilize .358” bullets.

However, it does match the bore diameter spec for 357magnum, which we all know uses .357” bullets, which consequently matches 9x19 bore diameter spec.

But 350 Legend does not match the bore and grove diameter of 357 Mag or 9mm Luger either. Tolerances can't be ignored. 350 Legend only has an allowed +.002 tolerance on those shared nominal bore and groove diameters (.346/.355) where 9mm and 357 Mag have +.004.

In these discussion everyone ignores it, but Groove Width with and Minimum Bore and Groove Area specsification, from and internal-ballistics/pressure point of view, are more critical than absolute bore and grove diameters. And 350 Legend shares those specs with 9mm not 357 Mag.

And the bullet spec does not match either sitting between the two.
9mm Luger: .3555 - .003
350 Legend: .357 - .003
357 Mag: .358 - .003

The specs are a mess and don't follow conventional specs for 9mm, 357 Mag, 38 Super, etc or 35 cal rifles.

A lot of pontification, without justification - a lot of folks have bemoaned the inconsistency with other cartridges, but nobody has proffered any reason why it matters?

Pointless speculation about pressure differences because of bore diameter or groove width MIGHT matter if SAAMI were bad at its job, but the pressure standard exists, the compliance standard is provided, so just like all SAAMI submitted and specified cartridges, any ammunition or reloading data measured within the dimensional spec must also be within the pressure spec. Pontificating about variant specs from other cartridges is moot.

The combination of minimum chamber and maximum bullet diameter, resulting in an uncommonly thin case mouth is unfortunate, but the dimensional and operating pressure specs, taken in total, yield a viable cartridge. At this point, bitching about it is just bitching.