6.5 Grendel

mshootnit said:

Is that designed for the .308 bore or .311 asking for a friend

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It's a .311 bore. 7.62x39 has proved to be an interesting reloading experience. On a whim I loaded a few 150gr .308 sierra lead tipped. Darned if they weren't as accurate as anything I've tried!

robert4301 said:

It's a .311 bore. 7.62x39 has proved to be an interesting reloading experience. On a whim I loaded a few 150gr .308 sierra lead tipped. Darned if they weren't as accurate as anything I've tried!

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7.62x39 is a blast to load for. I've loaded 110-160 grains with great results. RL-7 under 160 grain Hornady FTX's (.308's) are extremely accurate and very deadly on whitetails. CFE BLK and 123 SST's are as well. With CFE BLK and 123 SST's you can push them to near low-level .308 territory in a bolt action rifle. Fun stuff.

FWIW, I've seen no change in performance or accuracy loading .308-.311 bullets. None.

Newtosavage said:

This is precisely the opposite of what I found on live game. Longer, heavier bullets were penciling through without expanding, even inside 100 yards. Zero blood trails and long tracking jobs.

On the other hand, the 7.62x39 drops game quickly, expands very well and leaves great blood trails.

This, again, is based on my experience shooting live game (deer and pigs) with both.

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I am wondering what kind of bullets you were using in the Grendel? I would think that there would be bullets designed to expand at the velocity and range you hunt at. I have been thinking of building a Grendel for hunting but if good hunting bullets are not available I will go a different route.

Good hunting bullets are certainly available for the Grendel. I hunt hogs with a Grendel rifle and try out all sorts of bullets. Speer Gold 120s are excellent performers that open well and stay together well. Fusion is pretty much the same thing. Maker T-Rex if you are looking for a non lead bullet that stays together. Hornady SST 129 gr. bullets stay together fairly well and just expand nicely, more like a soft point than a more petaled bullet such as a Gold Dot.

Like bullets that come apart? I suggest trying the Berger VLD-Hunting 130s. Much less expensive are the Speer TNT 90s that do an outstanding job on hogs. And the old standby is Hornady SST 123 gr. bullets.

The Berger VLD-Hunting out of a 20" barrel were some of the most destructive bullets I have used that seemed to both penetrate well and make for huge wound channels. The down side is that they are expensive.

Out of the myriad of bullets that I have tried, the only one that penciled through hogs was the Lehigh Defense BRASS Controlled Chaos bullet. They simply would fail to open beyond a slight splaying of the tip, the tip not opening to the diameter of the bullet. The copper version would undoubtedly do better, but I have not tried it.

For most of these, I have them discussed in various places on my YouTube channel.

d2wing said:

I am wondering what kind of bullets you were using in the Grendel? I would think that there would be bullets designed to expand at the velocity and range you hunt at. I have been thinking of building a Grendel for hunting but if good hunting bullets are not available I will go a different route.

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I used 120 Nosler Ballistic Tips (2nd best on game), 120 ELD-M's, 130 grain Sierra Gamechangers, 100 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips, 120 grain Sierra Pro Hunters, 129 SST's, and 120 grain Speer Gold Dots. The 130 Gamechangers probably did the best job in terms of distance traveled after the shot, but they still left no blood on the ground at all. The Gold Dots did the worst of the bunch. Pencil holes at 80 and 110 yards on a pair of does, zero blood. One doe ran 100 yards and the other almost 3x that far. Nearly didn't find that one.

After over a dozen animals, I put the Grendel squarely in the .223 category on game. Not for me, but some guys love it. To each their own.

The 7.62x39 is in another league in my experience.

highlander 5 said:

Not going to shoot a lot of jacketed bullets of the rifle going to get a mold from NOE for the the rifle too keep cost down,though Ptvi Partisan has some good prices on jacketed bullets.

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custom moulding your own bullets might just be the way to go for the Grendel. That way you could adjust (I presume) hardness to get the expansion you want, right?

Newtosavage said:

I used 120 Nosler Ballistic Tips (2nd best on game), 120 ELD-M's, 130 grain Sierra Gamechangers, 100 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips, 120 grain Sierra Pro Hunters, 129 SST's, and 120 grain Speer Gold Dots. The 130 Gamechangers probably did the best job in terms of distance traveled after the shot, but they still left no blood on the ground at all. The Gold Dots did the worst of the bunch. Pencil holes at 80 and 110 yards on a pair of does, zero blood. One doe ran 100 yards and the other almost 3x that far. Nearly didn't find that one.

After over a dozen animals, I put the Grendel squarely in the .223 category on game. Not for me, but some guys love it. To each their own.

The 7.62x39 is in another league in my experience.

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I tried the 120gr Gold Dots on an antelope this year and wasn't overly impressed. To be fair, it wasn't an ideal shot. I was shooting from a hilltop down at her and the wind blew the bullet a little far back, hitting the back of the lungs but it stayed forward of the diaphragm, penetrated both lungs and exited. The first lung basically had a hole drilled through it, and there was more disruption on the second. She ran 500 yds before going down and required a finishing shot. I do think a softer bullet would work better with the speeds the Grendel is capable of, I'm working up loads for the 123gr SST, 123gr ELD and 129gr SP for this year. Pics of the damage attached below if anyone is interested (MV: 2,400 fps, 175 yds).

FWIW, the only deer I've ever lost was the first one I shot with 7.62x39 (123gr Power Shok). I'm still not sure what happened with that, but there were only two drops of blood and even with a tracking dog we couldn't find the deer.

@Double Naught Spy has killed far more hogs with a Grendel than I'll kill anything with anything (over 1k I believe? Love the channel!) so his recommendations should obviously carry some weight. I am curious however if his bullet recommendations for deer would be the same as those listed for hogs above?

I don't question double naught's results. I just had enough of what I saw. I also have over 1K pigs killed in my hunting experience and shot enough with the Grendel and 7.62x39 to know which I prefer. I suspect if double naught had been using the x39 in all his hunts, the results would have been the same, or better, in terms of dropping pigs quickly enough to know they don't need a follow-up shot, so you can then move on to the next pig. This is why I quit pig hunting with .223's, even though plenty of folks still use them and feel they are more than adequate. I just don't want to waste time wondering if I made a good hit on a pig when there are 30 of them all running full speed to get away from me. With the 7.62x39, I don't have to wonder if it's a good hit. They react immediately and I know to move on to the next pig.

There's a reason the U.S. military has been looking to duplicate the short to mid-range ballistics of the x39 in an AR platform for about 50 years now.

I am not sure how the 50 years of rejected military ball ammo ballistic interests are relative to hunting. The current military interests, BTW, are for a caliber that far exceeds the ballistic performance of the 7.62x39.

Gtscotty said:

I am curious however if his bullet recommendations for deer would be the same as those listed for hogs above?

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Can't directly comment on performance in deer because I have no personal experience there and can only base comments on what I have seen from other folks' results. The problem with deer data is that most folks only have limited experience. Except for the few individuals who are involved in culling operations or hunt Florida, most people are limited to just a few deer per year and most folks don't keep any sort of records. The trick here is to survey multiple deer hunters using comparable loads for given bullets. The problem there is finding a bunch of folks doing the same thing the same way and who have a real record of it beyond the notion of just being good or bad.

Newtosavage said:

There's a reason the U.S. military has been looking to duplicate the short to mid-range ballistics of the x39 in an AR platform for about 50 years now.

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They have? Sure seems to contradict every solicitation that I’ve ever seen.

I don't see many using using the lighter 6.5 bullets, I would think the grendel would make a sweet little varmint gun. I have to get one to try out be it a bolt gun or ar-15.

Newtosavage said:

I used 120 Nosler Ballistic Tips (2nd best on game), 120 ELD-M's, 130 grain Sierra Gamechangers, 100 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips, 120 grain Sierra Pro Hunters, 129 SST's, and 120 grain Speer Gold Dots. The 130 Gamechangers probably did the best job in terms of distance traveled after the shot, but they still left no blood on the ground at all. The Gold Dots did the worst of the bunch. Pencil holes at 80 and 110 yards on a pair of does, zero blood. One doe ran 100 yards and the other almost 3x that far. Nearly didn't find that one.

After over a dozen animals, I put the Grendel squarely in the .223 category on game. Not for me, but some guys love it. To each their own.

The 7.62x39 is in another league in my experience.

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Interesting. That has been my experience with the .243 which is why I looking at other than 6 MM. I have had great experience with the ,223 in 55 gr soft points. The 7.62x39 has worked ok for me but I prefer longer range flatter shooting. I am looking for something in an AR that gives me more confidence than either the 7.62x39 or the ,223. as a back-up and loaner. My first choice is my 7-08 bolt gun.

Newtosavage said:

I don't question double naught's results. I just had enough of what I saw. I also have over 1K pigs killed in my hunting experience and shot enough with the Grendel and 7.62x39 to know which I prefer. I suspect if double naught had been using the x39 in all his hunts, the results would have been the same, or better, in terms of dropping pigs quickly enough to know they don't need a follow-up shot, so you can then move on to the next pig. This is why I quit pig hunting with .223's, even though plenty of folks still use them and feel they are more than adequate. I just don't want to waste time wondering if I made a good hit on a pig when there are 30 of them all running full speed to get away from me. With the 7.62x39, I don't have to wonder if it's a good hit. They react immediately and I know to move on to the next pig.

There's a reason the U.S. military has been looking to duplicate the short to mid-range ballistics of the x39 in an AR platform for about 50 years now.

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Now I don't buy that part at all. The 5.56 NATO has outclassed the 7.62x39 in almost every engagement for 50 years. I don't know about your results on pigs but I know the military is not looking at the 7.62x39 as an upgrade ever. I suspect you are using the wrong bullets.

I can’t say I would class the killing performance of a 6.5 Grendel as similar to 5.56, nor would I say the 7.62x39 is a “class above.” Both Grendel and x39 kill game better than 5.56, and the Grendel hangs onto killing power farther than the x39.

Using bullets designed for expansion in much, much faster cartridges isn’t logical, but there are plenty of bullets out there which perform beautifully at the moderate speeds of the small Grendel case.

d2wing said:

Now I don't buy that part at all. The 5.56 NATO has outclassed the 7.62x39 in almost every engagement for 50 years. I don't know about your results on pigs but I know the military is not looking at the 7.62x39 as an upgrade ever. I suspect you are using the wrong bullets.

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LOL Okay d2wing.

I'm telling you based on what I've seen with my own eyes on pig-sized game, including 100's of pigs. Shoot a few hundred yourself and draw your own conclusions. And frankly I really don't care what those are because mine are based on personal experience.

Varminterror, are you saying the Grendel hangs onto killing power farther than the x39 based on experience, or based on paper? On paper, the Grendel looks pretty good. In the field on live game, I'll take the x39 based solely on what I've seen critters do.

I really looked hard at a boltgun in 6.5 G .. But I chose a Ruger American Ranch in 7.62x39
Main reason .. I have several thousand rounds of x39 and a couple of SKS

But a 6.5 G in a Boltgun would be sweet

Newtosavage said:

LOL Okay d2wing.

I'm telling you based on what I've seen with my own eyes on pig-sized game, including 100's of pigs. Shoot a few hundred yourself and draw your own conclusions. And frankly I really don't care what those are because mine are based on personal experience.

Varminterror, are you saying the Grendel hangs onto killing power farther than the x39 based on experience, or based on paper? On paper, the Grendel looks pretty good. In the field on live game, I'll take the x39 based solely on what I've seen critters do.

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He was obviously referring to your assertion that the US Military has been trying to replicate the 7.62x39 ballistics in the M-16 for 50 years, which, in addition to being unrelated to the topic at hand, is quite frankly a load of BS.

I prefer a longer barrel than 20" on the Grendel, but it's a very good option.
I have a 20" AR upper, and a 24" CZ.
I use two different loads in both I drive a 123sst to 2650 in my CZ, and the same bullets to 2450 from my 20" AR.
Personally I think that case is the right size for 100gr bullets, and used to shoot 100gr nuts at 2700 from my old 20" AR. After this whole Corona mess clears up, I'll give them and maybe the 95gr vmax a run in these new Grendel's.

On game the performance of the 123amax was excellent, but did not produce drastic wounding, especially on broad side shots. I did shoot end to end thru an Axis spike, and that made a mess of they chest cavity.

The stuff I hit with the 100gr nbts went down with authority.

95 vmax sound like a nice load. I wonder how it does against a 243 win real world fps.

Gtscotty said:

He was obviously referring to your assertion that the US Military has been trying to replicate the 7.62x39 ballistics in the M-16 for 50 years, which, in addition to being unrelated to the topic at hand, is quite frankly a load of BS.

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Never said replicate. And I could offer references but that would take us way off topic.

I think if a person wants to use the Grendel on deer/pig sized game, make sure you use the right bullet for the job, and make sure your tracking skills are honed.

FPS, capacity, energy are reasonably similar.
Sounds like it comes down to projectile design and shot placement. Anecdotes are not evidence.

LoonWulf said:

I prefer a longer barrel than 20" on the Grendel, but it's a very good option.
I have a 20" AR upper, and a 24" CZ.
I use two different loads in both I drive a 123sst to 2650 in my CZ, and the same bullets to 2450 from my 20" AR.
Personally I think that case is the right size for 100gr bullets, and used to shoot 100gr nuts at 2700 from my old 20" AR. After this whole Corona mess clears up, I'll give them and maybe the 95gr vmax a run in these new Grendel's.

On game the performance of the 123amax was excellent, but did not produce drastic wounding, especially on broad side shots. I did shoot end to end thru an Axis spike, and that made a mess of they chest cavity.

The stuff I hit with the 100gr nbts went down with authority.

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Interesting, I'm currently trying the 123gr ELDMs in leu of the SSTs I can't find locally. I'm liking what I see so far with AR-Comp, so I'll probably pony up and order some SSTs online. I've heard that the 123gr SST is quite a soft bullet and a quick expander even at Grendel velocities, hence my interest for thumping antelope (which are pretty lightly built).

I've been thinking about ordering some 100gr NBT blems to try out, my rifle liked the 120gr, and I wouldn't mind the extra velocity. Are you getting good penetration/exits with the 100gr? What powders did you use with the lighter pills? I started with the standard 8208, but really think I prefer AR-Comp and H4895 for the 120gr and 130gr class bullets I've tried.

100gr nbts had plenty enough penetration for what I do. Shot length wise thru a 40lb goat, so bout 1.5-2' of penetration.
Damage was significantly more impressive, especially on broad side shots.
With the low velocity I go for bones with the 123s, and squishy bits with the faster 100s.