Urban settings: M14, M1 underappreciated?

briansmithwins said:

What's better: A .30 cal bullet with such great stability that it makes a .30 hole through a person or a .224 cal bullet that transfers all it's energy into a person by fragmenting and tumbling?

George Orwell was shot through the neck in the Spanish Civil War and went on to write Animal Farm and 1984.

The real world works differently than how people feel it should.

BSW

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This is the same conclusion that some guys at Benning came to a wile ago:

Interestingly, the one 7.62mm round that received the full evaluation, the M80 fired from the M14 rifle, performed in the same band of performance, which would indicate that for M80 ammunition at least there appears to be no benefit to the larger caliber at close quarters range.

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and:

Hits to the center mass of the torso may eventually cause incapacitation as the target bleeds out, but this process takes time, during which a motivated target will continue to fight. While projectile design can make a good hit more effective, a hit to a critical area is still required; this fact is borne out by the Medal of Honor citations of numerous American Soldiers who continued to fight despite being hit by German 7.92mm, Japanese 6.5mm and 7.7mm, or Chinese or Vietnamese 7.62mm rounds. A more realistic mantra might be “One well-placed shot, one-kill.”

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Complete article can be found here: http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/WQV8N1_ART01.pdf

It really is worth the read.

briansmithwins said:

What's better: A .30 cal bullet with such great stability that it makes a .30 hole through a person or a .224 cal bullet that transfers all it's energy into a person by fragmenting and tumbling?

George Orwell was shot through the neck in the Spanish Civil War and went on to write Animal Farm and 1984.

The real world works differently than how people feel it should.

BSW

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What about a 30 cal bullet that tumbles & fragments? Or one that's barrier blind and has good expansion? If we're going to compare terminal ballistics, let's be fair and compare modern bullets, because there's no questioning the lethality of modern 30 cal bullets.

The orginal 55gr 5.56 bullet sometimes tumbled and sometimes fragmented. All too often, it did neither. It wasn't until bullet designers developed a 5.56 bullet specifically to tumble and fragment that the 5.56 would do so reliably.

The 308 with modern bullets delivers better terminal ballistics than the modern 5.56. That's why the 308 is better suited for the taking of larger game. But, as you're well aware, there's more to it than just terminal ballistics. The bottom line is, I agree with you, there is no question the 5.56 is superior to the 308 for modern gunfighting.

briansmithwins said:

What's better: A .30 cal bullet with such great stability that it makes a .30 hole through a person or a .224 cal bullet that transfers all it's energy into a person by fragmenting and tumbling?

George Orwell was shot through the neck in the Spanish Civil War and went on to write Animal Farm and 1984.

The real world works differently than how people feel it should.

BSW

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One can make all sorts of valid justifications for 5.56 over 7.62, but lethality is not one of them. Your statement above is, at the very least, silly.

I would invite any of you to stand 10 yds in front of several 5.56 rounds then do an AAR on how ineffective 5.56 is.

DocRock said:

One can make all sorts of valid justifications for 5.56 over 7.62, but lethality is not one of them. Your statement above is, at the very least, silly.

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A lot of the WWII rifle rounds (not the Brit .303 mkVII) were known for making through and through holes with relatively little terminal effect.

The US mostly got lucky in the original bullet design of the 55gr 556 bullet tumbled and fragmented, particularly at close ranges like as was seen in Viet Nam.

BSW

briansmithwins said:

...The US mostly got lucky in the original bullet design of the 55gr 556 bullet tumbled and fragmented, particularly at close ranges like as was seen in Viet Nam...

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Terminal performance of the Vietnam Era 55gr bullet was erratic. Sometimes they tumbled. Sometimes they fragmented at close range. Military 5.56 bullets have since been designed to tumble & fragment consistently.