45/70 or 30/30 in a 16 inch barrel

45-70 it does not have to be going fast to work. If you don't reload to go 30-30 what are you using it for.

Intended use will allow us to give you a more specific answer. Both cartridges will lose velocity in a 16" barrel but both start off relatively slow in any event. The "Dark" appears to be a tactical/defense related rifle.

I would agree with Troy Fairweather: if you reload the 45-70 you'll be able to do much with it. If you do not reload you'll shoot and practice and therefore enjoy the 30-30 much more.

30-30.

In 1895 the 30-30 was considered more powerful than 45-70. And with 1800's loads it was. With modern 45-70 loads it can be a more effective on really big stuff, but once you get into those loads recoil becomes pretty stout. There is very little you can't do with a 30-30.

Bear in mind the numbers you see listed in ballistics charts for either will be from a 24" barrel and are generally optimistic anyway. Shoot them in real rifles and they will be less. Plus most 30-30's have 20" barrels. You've already lost speed and going to 16" isn't that much different.

Here are some chronograph numbers with my guns with Winchester factory ammo. Factory loads will show about 2350ish for 150's and about 2200 for 170.

In my rifles shooting Winchester factory ammo

150 gr 20" barrel 2215 fps
150 gr 16" barrel 2180 fps

170 gr 20" barrel 2000 fps
170 gr 16"barrel 1970 fps

In my rifles I'm seeing 30-35 fps slower from the 16" barrel vs my 20" barrels. About 200 fps compared to a factory 24" test barrel. And an example of 1 doesn't prove much, but it appears the heavier bullets need more barrel compared to the factory 24" barrel. At least in my rifles.

For both of the cartridges you mentioned, (.45-70 / .30-30), a 4" loss of barrel length isn't going to matter. Both are low pressure cartridges, that do not require slow burning powders to achieve their top performance. In fact, both can be loaded to acceptable velocities in the Magnum Research BFR revolver. It comes in both calibers with just a 10" barrel. Here are mine in .500 S&W Magnum, and .45-70 pictured with some 552 Grain Gas Check cast bullet handloads. (Lower). They perform unbelievably well.

My take is unless you are a recoil junkie I would prefer the 30-30 first for the lower recoil, flatter trajectory, and faster target acquisition on follow up shots. Also if you are walking around with a bunch of extra ammo for any reason (there are places in the US that hogs are considered nusance pests and are just shot wholsale for eradication) the 30-30 will weigh less per shot.

Given your task, I'd pick the .30-30.

If you are reloading, I'd use IMR3031 or IMR4198 (or equivalent powders in that range, available to you...) and a 170grn bullet.

I love me some .45-70, I shoot cast bullets at long-range targets, but it would not be my first choice for a hunting arm.

And welcome to THR Ed

take a look at tc contender single shot speeds in the pistol section of a reloading manual for 14-15" barrels, it will give you a pretty good idea of what to expect.

jmr40 said:

In 1895 the 30-30 was considered more powerful than 45-70. And with 1800's loads it was.

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This was never true and never will be. Today, it's even more untrue than back then, no matter how many times you post it.

30-30 by far and away. It's flatter shooting, lower recoil, and very effective on even large hogs. I have used a 30-30 lever gun to great effect on hogs in the Texas Hill country, scrub brush. Works great out to 150 - 200 yards but in scrub brush, with 50 - 75 yards as the max, is absolutely perfect. The lower recoil helps with faster follow on shots. The key to the 30-30 is using a bullet that will expand reliably in the 2200 - 1650 fps range.Factory ammo should be so designed, but if reloading, you want a relatively thin jacket cup and core bullet and not something that was designed for 308 or 30-06. Not sure that the Dark is a great choice for even brush hunting. If you can find a 20" barrel 336, it offers much less velocity penalty and is hardly less handy.

CraigC said:

This was never true and never will be. Today, it's even more untrue than back then, no matter how many times you post it.

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There was some argument at the time, maybe not so much "powerful", as "effective". In which case many people did hold such views. An example:




Another one, a mixed opinion:

I would (and do) personally choose the 45-70 out of the two. Both are low pressure rounds with relatively low expansion ratios, but the 45-70 DOES lose less performance in a short barrel than a 30-30, and it does hit harder at the business end. Equally, both don’t gain nearly as much by going longer - a 16” Rifle is a quarter pound or more lighter than a 20” rifle, kills just as far and shoots just as small, so the ~100fps difference in velocity really isn’t a factor. I shoot an 18” Guide Gun and for anything walking within 300 yards, it’s big medicine. I enjoy my 336, but they don’t give the same spark I feel with my 1895’s.

Something worth considering - running a 45-70 at Marlin only pressure at 16” will run faster than running standard/SAAMI/Trapdoor pressures in a 20”. Can’t say that versatility exists for the 30-30.

Folks like to pretend the .45-70 is a high recoil cartridge - in general, I expect most of them either have never fired a .45-70, or at least certainly have never been properly trained to fire a rifle. The 45-70, with conventional pressure loads, has less recoil than a great number of commonly recommended hunting rifle cartridges.

Varminterror said:

Folks like to pretend the .45-70 is a high recoil cartridge - in general, I expect most of them either have never fired a .45-70, or at least certainly have never been properly trained to fire a rifle. The 45-70, with conventional pressure loads, has less recoil than a great number of commonly recommended hunting rifle cartridges.

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Much has to do with the shape of the stock... I don't think my Browning 1886 was that punishing, but that Marlin 1895 sure was. Further, it depends on how you use it. 2 or 3 full-house rounds in a hunting situation is much different than 50-100 rounds over a weekend shooting steel off sticks.

Yep. What Charlie98 said. I'm going through the same dilemma. I WANT the Marlin 45-70 but what I Need is the 30-30. My oldest son and I shoot a .50 Beowulf in an AR platform and I don't think the recoil is that bad until the 5th or 6th round. Then my shoulder starts yelling at me to stop doing that you idiot. It's also 2-3 bucks a round. So while the 45-70 would probably be fine for the deer and pigs on his land but the 30-30 is more practical and cost effective for all those empty beer cans running amok. Unless someone gives me a 45-70 for my birthday I'll go with the 30-30.

I would go with the 30-30. It’s a great round. They are both great rounds. It’s just more versatile than the 45-70 if you want to load for plinking, target practice or for hunting. It’s a bit less punishing on the shoulder.
Reloading costs would be reduced.

Don’t get me wrong, I also like the 45-70, but if I could only buy one now and get the other later I would buy the 30-30 first. And if I were only going to buy one it would still be the 30-30.

I have both, the .45/70 in a Marlin 18” guide gun and a 26” 1895 CB, and the .30-30’s are 20” Win 1894’s.

If you aren’t going to head up towards the Darwin area and hunt water buffalo the .30-30 in the 16” barrel length will be perfect for thick brush goats. Load it with just under 30 grains of 3031 and a Hornady 160 FTX bullet, put a peep sight on it and you’ll be good to 200 yds (if needed) with practice.

If buffalo is on the menu then go .45/70. A 400 to 450 gr hard cast and a hefty charge of (again) 3031 will provide plenty of penetration... and plenty of recoil.

Stay safe.

@Riomouse911 just reminded me...

I have these sights on my Winchester 94 Carbine 30-30 and I am putting them on my Marlin 336 30-30.

These are for the Marlin:
https://www.xssights.com/Products.aspx?CAT=8538

I really like the peep sight rear sight in combination with the white stripe post. They come with a large and a small peep sight. Not sure if you can get them in Oz but they would be worth a look, in my opinion.

I also have both the Winchester Model 94 in .30-30, (circa 1971 Model). And the Marlin Guide Gun in .45-70. And as far as I'm concerned, the .45-70 is easier to shoot. For one the .30-30 has a much sharper recoil in the light Model 94 carbine. Where as the .45-70 is more of a, "big push". Even with 405 grain bullets. Factory 170 Gr. loads in the Model 94 in .30-30 give a good, hard smack.

Yes, my Guide Gun in .45-70 is one of the older models that is ported. But I've fired non ported models as well. And the recoil is not much worse. If anything the non ported Guide Guns are a bit more comfortable to shoot, because the noise level is much less. Which is one of the reasons Marlin stopped porting them. Most hunters don't wear ear protection.

buy one of each and be prepared for what ever comes.

PI Rob said:

So while the 45-70 would probably be fine for the deer and pigs on his land but the 30-30 is more practical and cost effective for all those empty beer cans running amok.

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Further... besides loading hunting ammos for it, you can load cheap practice and plinking loads using cast bullets... and, to be quite honest, I don't see anything wrong with poking piggies with a nice 170 or 180grn cast FP bullet at 2000fps.

I own both and like both. If you handload , 45-70. if you don't the 30-30 may be better.
A simple way to look at the 45-70 is to view it as a large handgun cartridge . loaded to 454 casull ballistics makes a soft shooting load, the biggest 45-70 critics likely don't call the 454 inadequate for hogs , deer and soup cans, they would likely call it overkill . If you want less, 405 grain lead over trailboss @ 900 fps is light enough for children. That's still pretty darn powerful. All the way up to hard kicking rounds that are down right unpleasant. Doesn't need velocity to work and doesn't need a bottlenecked case. cases last a long time and are about the simplest cartridges to produce well. Plus the almost 150 years of load development helps.

The 30-30 is cool but it's a 30 cal rifle, there are lots of those. It doesn't do anything that any of the other ones won't , it is at the low end of 30 caliber rifle ballistics at full power. Still a very effective cartridge and every red blooded American should have a 30-30 , but I don't consider it nearly as versatile as the 45-70.
Either will do great for your needs. One will do a whole lot more too if you want it to.