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MCMXI

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I've never intentionally tried jamming bullets into the lands when handloading for rifles but an excellent load development thread by @Nature Boy got me thinking about trying it. I seem to remember he had a tack driver of a load with .020" jam so today I tried .005" and .010" jam using a Hornady 178gr A-MAX bullet for a .308 Win load. Yesterday I tried a COAL with the bullet "touching" as best as I could measure and that shot very well (see target on right). Today I tested loads with the bullet .005" into the lands (left target) and also .010" which was ok but nothing special. Given the horizontal arrangement of the group on the left I would say that it indicates a better load than the group on the right. Both groups are 5-shot and fortunately these loads will easily fit in the AICS magazines that I'm using. Here are the load details.

Rifle: Kimber 84M with 24" Proof barrel (1:10 twist)
Cartridge: .308 Win
Brass: Lapua
Bullet: 178gr A-MAX
Powder: 44.1gr of Varget
Primer: GM210M
COAL: 2.850"
Velocity: 2,700 fps

So who's seen great results using the "jam" method?

178gr_amax_coal_comparison.jpg
 
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Excellent groups regardless, however, I'd like to have seen 10 to 15 shots each using the same criteria and which I think wold be more definitive.
 
Milt1 said:
Excellent groups regardless, however, I'd like to have seen 10 to 15 shots each using the same criteria and which I think wold be more definitive.

Yeah, a 10-shot group would certainly be more convincing or compelling, and maybe I'll do that eventually. I'm planning on working up a Barnes 175gr LRX hunting load next and hopefully it shoots just as well. I won't be jamming those bullets though! :p For the group on the left, the first shot at 12 o'clock opened it up from around 0.3 moa to 0.6 moa but that was the cold bore shot.
 
1) both great groups that speak to marksmanship as well as loading.

2) I'm not critiquing "jam the lands" as a method of !load development with jacketed bullets. I don't do it, but that and $4.50 will get me an overpriced cup of coffee. However, it is important to note that loading such that the bullet seats into the lands is a holdover from the days of breech seating bullets in target shooting and was always done with cast bullets. Makes sense with cast bullets as they are much more subject to deformation with poor run out etc. With good, modern loading techniques, and quality jackets bullets, other than raising maximum chamber pressures, I wonder what jamming the of lands to add accuracy?
 
@DocRock, I am clearly not an expert on jamming bullets but Berger has a good article on working up loads for VLD bullets. I don't think you'll get much of an argument that Berger makes a quality product, but here's what they say about "jamming" bullets into the lands.

"The following has been verified by numerous shooters in many rifles using bullets of different calibers and weights. It is consistent for all VLD bullets. What has been discovered is that VLD bullets shoot best when loaded to a CBTO that puts the bullet in a “sweet spot”. This sweet spot is a band .030 to .040 wide and is located anywhere between jamming the bullets into the lands and .150 jump off the lands."

https://bergerbullets.com/vld-making-shoot/
 
@DocRock, I am clearly not an expert on jamming bullets but Berger has a good article on working up loads for VLD bullets. I don't think you'll get much of an argument that Berger makes a quality product, but here's what they say about "jamming" bullets into the lands.

"The following has been verified by numerous shooters in many rifles using bullets of different calibers and weights. It is consistent for all VLD bullets. What has been discovered is that VLD bullets shoot best when loaded to a CBTO that puts the bullet in a “sweet spot”. This sweet spot is a band .030 to .040 wide and is located anywhere between jamming the bullets into the lands and .150 jump off the lands."

https://bergerbullets.com/vld-making-shoot/

Well, "between jamming the bullets into the lands and .150 jump off the lands" covers pretty much all conventional wisdom. I can see how a VLD bullet with a super long, narrow ogive would benefit from the added alignment of jamming the lands that ye olde roundnose would not, so that's a good point.
 
Jamming the lands can be a tool used in fire forming cases, either wildcat, Ackley improved or new cases you are fire forming in the chamber. The poster MCMIX stole my thunder but running the full Berger test will give you more factual data on where is not accurate. ****As a safety note do not jam solids**** touch is the most inconsistent area, and most skip it and try .005 in and out. When moving further out of the case your pressure decreases until you enter the lands then goes up. I would test without additional powder as you move into the lands until you check for pressure signs. You may also find your optimal bullet pull or crimp may change. I dont crimp at all but you may.
 
Put an apache bbl on a savage puma rifle that had a chamber (throat/leade) that was specifically cut for the 179gr a-max. That combo held it's own with the bullet +/- 10/1000th's off the lands. Those apache bbl.'s have shallow lands (.301"/.308") a standard bullet jammed into the lands next to a bullet that was bumped with a 3/4* bump die and then seated so it was jammed into the lands.
vo4UgGe.jpg
As you can see when you match the bullets octave with the angle of the leade you have a lot more contact/alignment with the bullet.

When I see groups like the op's I'd be taking a look at:
The torques on the action screws
Runout
Measure the difference in diameter of the neck of the case between the fired case and a case that's loaded/ready to go.

I know 2 5-shot groups are not much to go on but I see 2 groups that have 4 bullets in and 1 out/flier. I also see groups that are 2x+ wider then they are tall.

Something to keep in mind. When you jam a bullet into the throat/lades you raise the short start pressure. Any under pressure will go to the least point of resistance. Things like bolt flex and un-even neck tension from the case being cocked sideways from play in neck come into play.

FWIW:
Typically I'll move the bullets out into the lands in bbl.'s that have throat erosion. Bbl's with good throats and crisp lands get's the bullets seated off the lands. A picture of the throat/leade from the latest bbl I put on that 308w puma rifle, a 30" 1in 14 twist .340" match for the 155gr smk's.
st4tMS0.png

If it was me I'd be finding out the angle of the leade in your bbl along with the chamber's neck dimension before I started jamming anything into them bullet wise. You might have the wrong setup for that bullet/brass combo which leads to chasing your tail.
 
I recently bought a 6mm Creedmoor rifle. I started off using Hornady 105 gn BTHP bullets. They were available and inexpensive. The only way I can get them to group is if I load against the lands, but then it’s a very good group. I see no pressure signs at all. Are there reasons not to do this?
 
@DocRock, I am clearly not an expert on jamming bullets but Berger has a good article on working up loads for VLD bullets. I don't think you'll get much of an argument that Berger makes a quality product, but here's what they say about "jamming" bullets into the lands.

"The following has been verified by numerous shooters in many rifles using bullets of different calibers and weights. It is consistent for all VLD bullets. What has been discovered is that VLD bullets shoot best when loaded to a CBTO that puts the bullet in a “sweet spot”. This sweet spot is a band .030 to .040 wide and is located anywhere between jamming the bullets into the lands and .150 jump off the lands."

https://bergerbullets.com/vld-making-shoot/


Having loaded and shot a fair amount of Bergers I may be able to provide some insight. Berger suggests finding your max OAL to kissing the lands. Once this is determined try kissing the lands and back off .04 until you are .12 off the lands. You will try 4 different OAL's with .04 difference between them.

Most of my accuracy loads with bergers have the projectile close to the rifling but not all.

Berger uses a "secant ogive" and that shape is conducive to seating close to the lands. Not sure about the AMAX.
 
I recently bought a 6mm Creedmoor rifle. I started off using Hornady 105 gn BTHP bullets. They were available and inexpensive. The only way I can get them to group is if I load against the lands, but then it’s a very good group. I see no pressure signs at all. Are there reasons not to do this?

I have pierced primers as I approached the lands with a known good powder charge. Working close to the lands can raise pressure
 
Secant, Tangent....and now Berger's hybrids? After a little reading, I am thinking these hybrids are less sensitive to distance from the lands than secant.....less pressure than tangents. (supposedly the best of both worlds)

What about the recently redesigned Sierra Match Kings......they look to be their version of Berger's hybrids.
 
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I recently bought a 6mm Creedmoor rifle. I started off using Hornady 105 gn BTHP bullets. They were available and inexpensive. The only way I can get them to group is if I load against the lands, but then it’s a very good group. I see no pressure signs at all. Are there reasons not to do this?

The only reason I can think of is for hunting. Jam a bullet too hard, and, if you need to unload that bullet it may stick in the lands and pull out of the case. THAT creates a special problem that can only be solved with tools you don't very often have with you on a hunt. If it's all target shooting, likely not an issue.
 
I have a .22 Hornet that doesn’t really shoot that great with completely sized cases and normal length loads. Fire form the cases, size only the portion of the neck that the bullet makes contact with and have the bullet out so far it’s seated deeper into the case as the action is closed and the thing will shoot .3’s at 100. You never know until you try.

As noted above, it’s similar to a pellet gun at that point, easier to shoot it empty than “unload it”.
 
Nature Boy said:
also secant

Yep. And secant ogive bullets are more sensitive to bullet jump compared to tangent ogive varieties. You can almost always recognise a secant ogive bullet by the ridge or line at the intersection of the bearing surface and ogive.

forrest r said:
If it was me I'd be finding out the angle of the leade in your bbl along with the chamber's neck dimension before I started jamming anything into them bullet wise. You might have the wrong setup for that bullet/brass combo which leads to chasing your tail.

According to the drawing of the reamer that was used, the leade angle is 1.50° +/- .25°, and the neck O.D. is .3428" +/- .0004". Fired cases are coming out with a neck O.D. of .3415". SAAMI spec on the lead is 1°45'.
 
The only reason I can think of is for hunting. Jam a bullet too hard, and, if you need to unload that bullet it may stick in the lands and pull out of the case. THAT creates a special problem that can only be solved with tools you don't very often have with you on a hunt. If it's all target shooting, likely not an issue.
I never understood this problem. If you are hunting and, then ready to leave for the day why not just shoot a stump. Problem solved no tools required.
 
Glockula said:
I have pierced primers as I approached the lands with a known good powder charge. Working close to the lands can raise pressure

So far I haven't seen any obvious pressure signs. No heavy bolt lift, no pieced or even flattened primers, no cratered primes, no significant marks on the case head etc. Here are a couple of photos of twice fired Lapua brass with the .005" and .010" jam into the lands.

308win_case_head_jammed.jpg
 
Just read this post on the Precision Rifle Blog, reviewing a long-term study on bullet jump. Since I'm not looking for benchrest accuracy, I'm thinking it might be worth trading a bit of accuracy for throat life. Generally speaking, I'm happy if I'm sub-MOA. Tighter may be better, but there may be a tradeoff.
 
AJC1 said:
I never understood this problem. If you are hunting and, then ready to leave for the day why not just shoot a stump. Problem solved no tools required.

As I mentioned earlier, I'm going to work up a Barnes 175gr LRX hunting load next and Barnes does not recommend jamming solid copper bullets due to engraving force and pressure spikes. I'll be testing from .020" off the lands and greater. I wanted to work up a 178gr A-MAX load for practice, shooting steel, letting others shoot the rifle etc. My thought going in is that based on shooting a variety of factory ammunition from this Proof barreled rifle, the A-MAX and LRX will have similar POA/POI out to reasonable ranges.

As for pulling the bullet out of the case when extracting a live round that jams the bullet into the lands, that's not going to happen with .005" or .010" of jam into the lands, not with this rifle anyway. I've tried it and have no problem extracting the round and measurements show that the COAL hasn't changed at all.
 
Glockula said:
Having loaded and shot a fair amount of Bergers I may be able to provide some insight. Berger suggests finding your max OAL to kissing the lands. Once this is determined try kissing the lands and back off .04 until you are .12 off the lands. You will try 4 different OAL's with .04 difference between them.

To avoid any confusion, Berger suggests loading .010" into the lands for match/target rifles. They recommend starting at .010" off the lands for hunting rifles.

Load 24 rounds at the following CBTO if you are a target competition shooter who does not worry about jamming a bullet:
  1. .010 into (touching) the lands (jam) 6 rounds
  2. .040 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
  3. .080 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
  4. .120 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
Load 24 rounds at the following CBTO if you are a hunter (pulling a bullet out of the case with your rifling while in the field can be a hunt ending event which must be avoided) or a competition shooter who worries about pulling a bullet during a match:
  1. .010 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
  2. .050 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
  3. .090 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
  4. .130 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
 
As @Legionnaire mentioned there's a very good series on precisionrifleblog.com about testing longer jump lengths. I used to load 0.030"-0.000" jump because I could usually find a good load there but have recently been using the Berger method of seating and have also found good depths at 0.100"-0.060".
 
Here are some relatively randomly structured, shotgun blasted thoughts I have on jamming.

I’m not averse to jamming, but I am averse to the consequences of jamming, just enough to avoid it in most circumstances. If I were shooting benchrest or even F-class where my life hung on raw or aggregate groups, I would probably be jamming, but I wouldn’t love it.

I’m not willing to “shoot into a stump” and add unnecessary pressure on the game every day and add complexity to unloading my rifle just for a hunting load. When coyote hunting, I might make a dozen sets in a day - should I really blast a round at every one of these spots just to feel confident in the safety for travel? And do the same the next day? And the same the next weekend? A mis-fire condition is another opportunity where, when hunting, I’d prefer to not have a bullet lodged in my lands, requiring careful ejection with the barrel pointed upwards to avoid spilling powder in the chamber and action, and subsequently tapping the bullet from the leade with a rod... I’d much prefer to cycle the round out as God intended, and deliver the next round on target. Meat in the freezer or fur on the rack... It’s simply not worth any complication, when great shooting loads are easily developed without such consideration.

Equally, I preferred to NOT jam when shooting benchrest, as some ranges I used required the rifle to be cleared at the line, and wouldn’t allow the muzzle pointed upwards to eject... so if I timed out and needed to eject a round (didn’t happen, but “if”), I was stuck dumping powder in my action and tapping out a bullet. Equally, ejecting live rounds can and does happen just often enough in PRS, I wouldn’t jam my match ammo either. A solid bottom single shot action is easier to clear of powder than a repeater, but I simply don’t see enough advantage to jam, or enough disadvantage in not jamming.

That said, I’ve jammed a lot of bullets. Some for the precision, some for fireforming. Load development has to be done with jamming in mind, and the juice really has to be worth the squeeze for me. I’ve never had luck “kissing,” I tend to do better >= 5 thou off or >= 10 thou in.

For solids or partition type bullets, I’ve had my best luck at >= 50 out, and I’d really, really have to have a strong motivation I don’t currently experience to convince me to jam either of these.

I’ll also note - there are enough guys jumping secant bullets a LONG ways for me to acknowledge no rule should be considered gospel. I’ve jumped A-Max’s and ELD’s as far as 70 thou, VLD’s as far as 50, and have commonly found one or more of the following truths: the sweet spot isn’t always close to the lands, there might not be a sweet spot at all (aka, the bullet isn’t very jump sensitive), and/or the sensitivity isn’t as big as my inherent inaccuracy.

And that’s probably the biggest driver in my consideration. I’m not a world class shooter, but I’m capable of regularly sustaining groups under 1/2moa. Regardless of what combinations I have tried - neck or full length sizing, jamming/jumping, this press or that, this powder/bullet/brass/primer/cartridge/barrel/trigger/stock/scope or that... I can’t say I have found anything which can make me shoot smaller. I know a few combinations do make me shoot larger, but I know I can’t reliably say jamming has been consistently more precise than jumping when I’m behind the trigger.

I do however fully trust the science behind it, and also fully trust the experience of BR shooters which jam because they’ve demonstrated for themselves that jamming delivers the smallest potential.

Ultimately, I think most folks can safely manage development of a jammed bullet load. The folks who can’t understand jamming influences development shouldn’t be jamming, and they’re often self-aware enough to blindly follow “jamming isn’t safe”. An example of the difference in handloaders vs. reloaders, and the world needs both kinds. And I also think most folks talking about jamming vs. jumping, like myself, really wouldn’t be able to tell the difference.
 
Orcon said:
As @Legionnaire mentioned there's a very good series on precisionrifleblog.com about testing longer jump lengths. I used to load 0.030"-0.000" jump because I could usually find a good load there but have recently been using the Berger method of seating and have also found good depths at 0.100"-0.060".

That's an excellent but somewhat depressing article and quite compelling. Too bad they didn't include jamming the bullet .005", .010", .015", .020" etc. I worked up a great load for my .375 H&H Mag a few years ago using a Barnes 250gr TTSX bullet and VV N540 powder. Due to the internal length of the magazine and geometry of the chamber, I ended up with about .250" of bullet jump but it shoots exceptionally well. That experience made me realize that you don't have to be near the lands for a load to shoot well, but you do give up some velocity which for hunting might be significant depending on the bullet you're using and the range of the animal.
 
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