Preferred carry ammo

Barry loyd said:

I quit using H100/296 in carry ammo due to concussion and flash. It’s a great powder for full power loads but that’s all it good for. I find 2400 more versatile. Skeeter’s load of 13.5gr over a 158 is easier on the ears and still packs a heck of punch.

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That will likely be true from my GP-100 (4") but much less likely from the Marlin lever rifle.

When I was with the NYPD, I carried 124gn Speer Gold Dot +p for duty and off duty as required. When I was with my local PD they issued whatever was on sale at the time of purchase. Usually Winchester Ranger. Now retired and live on the Jersey border and cross over frequently, Hornady Critical Duty or Defense due to the hollow point issue with New Jersey.

Rbstuartjr said:

Now retired and live on the Jersey border and cross over frequently, Hornady Critical Duty or Defense due to the hollow point issue with New Jersey.

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I am sure you heard about it but there was a Brinks guard arrested and charged with having hollow points this year. Turns out they were nylon filled so Critical Duty or Defense are the likely ones. The charges were eventually dropped. A messy case all over.

https://nj1015.com/nj-prosecutors-drop-gun-charges-against-armed-security-guard/

Hartkopf said:

So are the unbonded Golden Sabers substancially less effective than the bonded? I've never heard anybody actually confirm this.

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GunnyUSMC said:

The non bonded bullets tend to have less controlled expansion and tend to come apart.

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The FBI had a shooting with windshield penetration issues using the non-bonded Golden Saber in .45 ACP. Overnight the non-bonded variety was relegated to training ammo and the bonded version was issued for duty carry.

When I carry my 357, ( 4" S&W 686 ) it has 38 Spl.'s in it. A 158 gr. hardcast loaded to +P+ levels. At typical self defense range it should suffice nicely and yet produce less muzzle flash. OP mentioned having a 3" barrel and full power 357's would almost be overkill in that scenario.

Buffalo bore Heavy .38 Special +P 158g LSWCHP for me in my 2.25" SP101. Gives around 1,140fps out of a 3" barrel. Good balance of power and control ability in a proven old school bullet. As a bonus, the .38 shells eject more reliably and fixed sight guns are made to shoot 158g bullets to point of aim where 125g may print low. When I'm in the woods I switch to 180g lead flat nose (black bear and lion protection).

I second your choice of HST rounds for the 9mm.

Handguns:
When I started EDC I carried a full size 9mm concealed, and I had it loaded with 124gr Hornady Critical Duty.

Then I carried a snub nose 357 for a few years and I carried 125gr (I think) 357mag Hornady Critical Defence.

Now in my smaller carry semi auto 9mm, I am back to Hornady Critical Duty in 135gr

Rifles:
AR-15: just 55gr fmj
AK-47: 123gr soft points

HD Shotgun:
First round in the tube is a 1oz rifled slug, then 3 rounds of 00 buckshot, then 3 rounds of #4 birdshot (high brass). So the slug is the last round shot.

I did hear about this.The aforementioned Critical Duty/Defense are legal to carry in NJ. This hollow point nonsense in NJ has plagued gun owners for year. Not even off duty LE can carry hollow points.

herrwalther said:

I am sure you heard about it but there was a Brinks guard arrested and charged with having hollow points this year. Turns out they were nylon filled so Critical Duty or Defense are the likely ones. The charges were eventually dropped. A messy case all over.

https://nj1015.com/nj-prosecutors-drop-gun-charges-against-armed-security-guard/

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If I carried a 9mm or up I wouldn't be concerned. I'd carry whatever hollow points were easiest to find and cheapest.

But I carry smaller rounds, namely .380 and .38 Special, which often have trouble expanding, even when using premium hollow points.

So, I carry Hornady Critical Defense. In all tests I've seen, they perform the best in these low velocity cartridges.

In my pony it's the remington 103 grain Golden Saber Rounds. Feeds like Hard Ball and has the ability to punch deep

GunnyUSMC said:

I really like how these guys evaluate ammo in unreal ways. Who wears four pares of jeans? So why shoot through four layers of denham.
I’m lucky in the fact that I get to see what happens to bullets that people are shot with. I’ve seen many different hollow point bullets that preform great in gel test but failed to expand in a human body. I have also seen mixed results from good ammo. This is due to the fact that every person’s body is not the same. Fat, skinny, muscular body types with have an effect on bullet performance. And don’t forget bone structure too.
The bullets that I have seen that preform the best are. Fed. HST, Speer Gold Dot, Hornady Critical Defense and Rem. (Bonded) Golden Saber.
There are a lot of factors that can alter the performance of ammo. I remember, about two years ago, the Firearms Examiners at the State Lab conducted a bullet test as part of their ongoing training. They bought a pig carcass from a butcher shop and shot several rounds into it from different guns. They used denham and other things to shoot through. I was surprised to see that Remington JSP 38 Spl, out preformed Remington standard JHP.
If you’re one of those guys that like to test the ammo you carry, I recommend that you find someone that hunts hogs and get them to donate a hog for your bullet test.

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I can see four layers of denim. Jean jacket and a denim shirt. Shoot through the pockets and voila! like magic, four layers of denim. Probably not all that common, but certainly not out of the realm of the possible.

"No one ever got fired for buying HST." or Gold Dot for that matter. There are several excellent choices and many good ones. We have more information at our fingertips for terminal performance of bullets than ever before.

I'll take up the case of the classic Remington Golden Saber for this post. Sure, it gets ragged on with today's optics because they lose their jackets... eventually... somewhere between 12"-18". It's like the one bullet we don't know how to evaluate today because it is still around and effective, but doesn't fit the mold of 1.5x+ with no jacket separation. It was not made with today's barrier testing in mind back in 1991 but held it's own against it's major competitors at the time (XTP and classic Hydra Shok.) Many people aren't even carrying the classic competitors today (or the original Black Talon but that's another story) but do carry the GS. Here's a history lesson on the Golden Saber in an ad piece for the Black Belt iteration: https://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/remingtons-black-belt-bullet/247952#:~:text=In 1991, Remington introduced the,perform better from short barrels.

As for Golden Saber training vs duty, Remington still sells it as a duty round, albeit their bottom of the line offering: https://www.remingtondefense.com/ammunition/handgun/

There are many worse choices than the classic GS and Remington has rebranded the same cartridge/bullet as "Ultimate Defense." A person should consider that there are several ammos marketed specifically for CCW holders (and specifically not LEOs), with soft bullets that expand easily and typically average the 12"+ penetration mark. Take Hornady's gem: Critical Defense 9mm https://www.hornadyle.com/handgun-ammunition/9mm-luger-115-gr-ftx#!/

Nobody in their right mind would question that ammo for CCW use, but Hornady didn't even bother testing it on barriers. Their own published testing is 0.55" expansion and 11.25" penetration out of a 3" barrel Kahr. With those stats, it probably wouldn't have fared well. Lucky gunner clocked it at the same velocity out of a M&P9c, but it went a little further and expanded a little less. https://www.luckygunner.com/9mm-115-gr-jhp-ftx-hornady-25-rounds#geltest That probably speaks more of the gel medium than the ammo. Again, nobody would rag on Critical Defense for CCW use.

Just for comparison to other ammos marketed for CCW, look at this Golden Saber/Ultimate Defense gel test.
https://www.luckygunner.com/9mm-124-grain-remington-ultimate-defense-compact-jhp-20#geltest
This typifies why it doesn't fit today's mold or way of thinking, but still is incredibly effective for CCW use. Notice that in the gel test, all the bullets lost their jackets, however, this occurred between the 15.5" and 18" mark. So, it pushed an expanded bullet larger than 0.60" through 15.5" of media....and because it lost it's jacket at the very end, when it is out of energy, some label it inferior.

Sure, it isn't a HST, Gold Dot, bonded, or copper creation and won't have a picture perfect expansion blossom... but the GS is still effective for the everyday CCW holder because the expansion threshold is lower than today's barrier designed projectiles, which helps in shorter barreled CCW firearms.

I just want to answer the question about 357. I like what I see from the Barnes TAC-XPD. From your 3" barrel, you're probably getting over 1300 fps. You could handload this bullet down to 1200 fps for less recoil, but it's probably not worth it. With longer 5" and 6" barrels, the factory ammo that is loaded to be sufficient in 1.875" barrels is overdriving the bullet. In a 3", you're fine.

The other alternative you could consider is the 140 grain XPB bullet. This is the same design as the TAC-XPD but without the tactical black coloring. Factory ammo is available from Barnes and Federal. With the 140 grain, you can get the necessary penetration with lower velocity and overall less recoil. The hollowpoint will open at 1100 fps and you'll get more than that with the Federal version. The Barnes (Remington) version is slightly hotter. Since you don't have the shortest barrel, I'd go with the Federal 140 gr Vital-Shok Barnes XPB == less recoil with better penetration. But there's nothing wrong with the 125 grain TAC-XPD.

Boattale said:

I can see four layers of denim. Jean jacket and a denim shirt. Shoot through the pockets and voila! like magic, four layers of denim. Probably not all that common, but certainly not out of the realm of the possible.

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The four layers of denim test came about as a result of significant scientific study and research. The FBI developed a series of fabric tests that specified 4 kinds of different test fabrics -- 14.4oz/yard denim, Malden Mills Polartec fleece, cotton dress shirt, 1 layer of t-shirt. It was intended to cover a variety of clothing contingencies, but it was complicated.

Then someone with the IWBA did extensive testing -- it wasn't just a Youtube experiment -- to more or less prove that there was no observable difference between the FBI heavy clothing tests and 4 layers of denim. If a bullet clogged in the FBI test, it clogged in denim too and nothing that passed the FBI test didn't also pass 4 layers of denim. Without any observable difference after extensive testing, most people decided the 4 layer denim protocol was easier to follow consistently and wouldn't meaningfully skew the results. So that's what they do.

My preferred carry ammo?

9mm - 124gr Gold Dot +P or 124gr HST +P (Glock 17, Ruger LC9s)
.45ACP - 230gr Gold Dot or 230gr HST or 230gr Hydra-Shok (Glock 21, Glock 36)
.357 Mag - 125gr Rem SJHP (S&W 686, S&W 327)

I admit, I made these choises several years ago, and I have not really been keeping up on new ammo releases since then.

General Geoff and 230RN...
Have you tried switching to a different or new mag? If so, I`d find out what KT uses to test their guns and try that brand. May actually help and you may at least have a range toy.
My wife has a P-32 and we/she haven`t had any problems with it at all. Just keeps chugging right along.
While not my first choice in a self defense caliber, I don`t think anyone would stick around after seeing the muzzle flash and try to guess whether it was a .32, .357 or 9mm

9mm (3"): Std. 147 gr. Ranger-T or HST.
.40 (4"): 180 gr. Winchester Bonded Over-run (Q4369) or HST
.45 ACP (3.8"): 230 gr. +P HST
.45 ACP (5"): Std. 230 gr. HST
.357 Mag. (6.5"): HDY Custom 158 gr. XTP-HP.




GR

9mm- FN FNS mid size and other mid-full sized handguns. :Hornady XTP 124 grain. I switched to this bullet a couple years ago as I wanted a load I could replicate with handloads at a decent price point for lots of practice. This bullet over HS-6 or factory loaded also proved to be remarkably accurate in 2 of my handguns. You may have read my recent post on defensive use of this load on a smallish black bear.

.357: I have 2 loads. Wife load and my load.

Wife load is fired from a 3" Taurus. This is primarily a woods/camping load so use on wildlife is far more likely than use on people. Hornady XTP 158 HP. I'd call it ".357 light." Handload with HS-6, slightly below max.

My load which is also a camping and full fledged hunting load is the Speer 158 JSP over a max load of H110. This is fired from a 6" Taurus, generally open carried in the woods and around camp in bear country.

labnoti said:

I just want to answer the question about 357. I like what I see from the Barnes TAC-XPD. From your 3" barrel, you're probably getting over 1300 fps. You could handload this bullet down to 1200 fps for less recoil, but it's probably not worth it. With longer 5" and 6" barrels, the factory ammo that is loaded to be sufficient in 1.875" barrels is overdriving the bullet. In a 3", you're fine.

The other alternative you could consider is the 140 grain XPB bullet. This is the same design as the TAC-XPD but without the tactical black coloring. Factory ammo is available from Barnes and Federal. With the 140 grain, you can get the necessary penetration with lower velocity and overall less recoil. The hollowpoint will open at 1100 fps and you'll get more than that with the Federal version. The Barnes (Remington) version is slightly hotter. Since you don't have the shortest barrel, I'd go with the Federal 140 gr Vital-Shok Barnes XPB == less recoil with better penetration. But there's nothing wrong with the 125 grain TAC-XPD.

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From the Barnes tech I spoke with recently, the 110 is supposed to double diameter at 750 fps impact, with the 125&140 fully expanding at 950, now any extra velocity will still help shock the target but thought I'd throw up that 1100 is higher than minimum listed.

scotchlouis said:

What’s your preferred carry ammo any why? Especially Interested in what you carry for 357 magnum in a 3” barrel. What I’m currently carrying is listed below.

9mm:
3” barrel: 124gr Federal HST (Ruger EC9S)
4” barrel: 147gr Federal HST (Glock 19)

357 magnum:
3” barrel: 125gr Barnes Tac-XPD (Taurus Tracker 692)

380:
Precision One 90gr XTP JHP (Ruger LCP)

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Good choices.

Here's a question for you:

How much practice do you get in with your chosen carry ammo?

And if you don't have much practice in with your chosen carry ammo, why? How are you offsetting this lack of practice?

Maximum benefit drives with practicing with your chosen carry ammo. But most people do not because their defense ammo tends to be a wee bit more expensive than their practice ammo.

In lieu of this, the next best thing is to match the performance characteristics of your practice/target ammo with that of your defense ammo.

For me, my target ammo tends to be Winchester White Box .45 ACP in 230 gr. and 9mm in 115 gr.

These are standard velocity rounds, at about 850 fps and 1190 fps respectively.

My chosen defense ammo is Speer Gold Dot in 230 gr. and 115 gr. respectively.

They are also standard velocity.

Having run a few hundred rounds through my pistols, I've verified them to be reliable in operation and indistinguishable with respect to point of impact on the range compared to my target ammo.

I specifically chose my defense ammo because of this, in addition to being a quality defense ammo in their own right.

What I carry is based entirely upon what I know works best for me and the specific firearm.

What experience has taught me is that is unique to me. What is unique to others, only they can determine.

For my 2¢ if you can put the rounds reliably where you aim them despite the weather, despite the stress, despite what everyone else says about either the ammo or the arm--then it Does Not Matter.

Hitting what you aim at really can matter.

If your situation limits you to a pocket .32acp in an ankle holster, you probably want the ammo you can shoot best from that particular arm rather than what somebody else says is the "correct" choice. And, you cannot make up for a lack of practice with the arm and ammo by buying a $3 apiece hyperdestructo round.

Practicing enough, and knowing you ammo matters. Going from a 4" group to a 3" group matters (going from 4" to 2" really matters).

Eggzactly right sir.

I like whatever brand will feed simply, regularly, and reliably in my carry gun. While that may vary gun to gun, I do find that Hornady Critical Defense is the most consistent performer in the guns I carry.

For 9mm I have full size, compact and subcompact models.
I like HST 124+P, Golden Saber 124gr, Hornady 135+P and Gold Dot 147gr. I've tested them all in different mediums against a slew of other brands and I liked these best, especially the HST's.

For .38spl I like the Hard Cast wadcutters from buffalo bore. For .380 and .32acp I just carry FMJ's, I used to keep them loaded with JHP's but I shot the hollow points I had in the mags for about 10 years and just decided to load them back up with FMJ, my thinking is hollows dont expand or penetrate well with the lil pocket rocket guns so FMJ'S might be the better option.

Btw, I know you're supposed to switch your carry ammo out more often than every decade, I dropped the ball on that...