9mm ammo and chrono data

NedNederlander · Jul 7, 2020

Hello. My first post here at THR. I'm new to the reloading world and I'm head over heels loving it all. I just got my first chronograph (Competition Electronics ProChrono DLX) last week and put it to good use today. Before I get to the results I thought I'd give a proper intro first.

I got into shooting later in life, early 40s, about six years ago. Since that time I've accumulated a few Glocks, and a Mossberg MMR AR and 590 shotgun. Stocked up on ammo after the 2017 Vegas incident and also my first look into reloading. But, I spent to much on the ammo so reloading got put aside. The reloading bug finally came back March of this year and I spent the next couple months on a learning binge. Finally in June I made it official and decided to begin with 9mm.

I bought the Lee hand press, 4 die set, ram prime, balance scale, and powder measure. I'm very happy with all the Lee equipment I have. I deprime my brass off press with a steel punch, rubber mallet, and a armorers block that has a perfect notch for the smaller 9mm/5.56 case. I started doing it this way before I got any reloading equipment with the brass I had on hand, and I have just kept doing it that way. Range brass gets wet tumbled by me in a repurposed large protein shake mixer bottle with hot water, a few squirts of dawn, and a couple drops of lemon juice; 40-60 minutes later I get very clean somewhat shiny brass.

I got lucky and was able to find components from a few different Academy stores in my area just before the protesting and rioting started a few weeks ago. I'm using CFE Pistol, Hornady 124gr FMJRN, and CCI 500. Got enough stuff to assemble at least 2k.

So now to some data. I started off with 10 cartridges using 5.1gr CFE and 1.150 COL. Those shot very accurate but left a soot streak 3/4 down the case. 10 more at 5.3gr/1.150 still accurate and less soot. The last 10 I put together was at 5.5gr/1.150 and those went over the chrono today along with all the other factory ammo I had on hand. For me in my beginning reloading journey THR has been a great source of info, so that's why I'm sharing my first reloading post here, and I'm looking forward to becoming much more active here as I go down the rabbit hole of reloading.

NedNederlander · Jul 7, 2020

Oops forgot the chrono data...

I used a G19 4" barrel for all 9mm and the AR is 16"

Name: Magtech 5.56x45 62gr FMJ
Shots: 20
Average: 2935 ft/s
SD: 37 ft/s
Min: 2866 ft/s
Max: 3002 ft/s
Spread: 136 ft/s
Barometric Pressure: 30.0 in Hg
Temperature: 89F
Manufacturer Data: 3085 ft/s 20" Barrel

Name: Speer-Lawman CleanFire 9x19 124gr FMJRN
Shots: 15
Average: 1053 ft/s
SD: 10 ft/s
Min: 1030 ft/s
Max: 1068 ft/s
Spread: 38 ft/s
Barometric Pressure: 30.0 in Hg
Temperature: 89F
Manufacturer Data: 1090 ft/s Barrel 4"

Name: Sellier&Bellot 9x19 124gr FMJRN
Shots: 15
Average: 1120 ft/s
SD: 9 ft/s
Min: 1098 ft/s
Max: 1129 ft/s
Spread: 31 ft/s
Barometric Pressure: 30.0 in Hg
Temperature: 89F
Manufacturer Data: 1181 ft/s 5" Barrel

Name: Remington-UMC 9x19 115gr FMJRN
Shots: 15
Average: 1095 ft/s
SD: 14 ft/s
Min: 1069 ft/s
Max: 1119 ft/s
Spread: 50 ft/s
Barometric Pressure: 30.0 in Hg
Temperature: 89F
Manufacturer Data: 1145 ft/s Barrel ?

Name: Reloads 5.5 CFE 9x19 124gr FMJRN
Shots: 10
Average: 1118 ft/s
SD: 12 ft/s
Min: 1100 ft/s
Max: 1142 ft/s
Spread: 42 ft/s
Barometric Pressure: 30.0 in Hg
Temperature: 89F
Manufacturer Data: 1120 ft/s 4" Barrel

Name: Federal-HST 9x19 147gr +P JHP
Shots: 15
Average: 1031 ft/s
SD: 17 ft/s
Min: 1013 ft/s
Max: 1066 ft/s
Spread: 53 ft/s
Barometric Pressure: 30.0 in Hg
Temperature: 89F
Manufacturer Data: 1050 ft/s 4" Barrel

Name: Federal-HST 9x19 124gr +P JHP
Shots: 16
Average: 1166 ft/s
SD: 20 ft/s
Min: 1120 ft/s
Max: 1197 ft/s
Spread: 77 ft/s
Barometric Pressure: 30.0 in Hg
Temperature: 88F
Manufacturer Data: 1200 ft/s 4" Barrel

NedNederlander · Jul 7, 2020

Also I'll add that I like what I'm seeing with CFE Pistol at 5.5gr, so I might shorten the COL to 1.125 from 1.150 and see what those chrono at. I'm trying to work up some training and range loads that get me closer to 1150 ft/s and somewhat closely resemble the HST 124gr +P ammo.

Archie · Jul 8, 2020

Welcome!

I typically load most handgun cartridges to the standard bullet weights and velocities. I used to experiment with really heavy or really light (for the type) bullets. I didn't gain anything but some embarrassment and cases not ejecting properly. At about the pressure of factory (issue) loads, the pistols seem to work all the time.
I do hotrod .38 Special a bit for defense, but within published data.

rfwobbly · Jul 8, 2020

Welcome aboard !

Also I'll add that I like what I'm seeing with CFE Pistol at 5.5gr, so I might shorten the COL to 1.125 from 1.150 and see what those chrono at. I'm trying to work up some training and range loads that get me closer to 1150 ft/s and somewhat closely resemble the HST 124gr +P ammo.

Several pointers...
• I assume you are discussing 9x19 Luger here. Lots of cartridges shoot 124gr bullets. Reloading is a hobby where both the Devil (and his wife, along with several dozen in-laws) live in the details. So you must be specific and very clear in your posts if you want the responses to be valuable. Not jumping on you, it's a simple oversight. But always strive for clarity.

• Pressure rapidly rises as OAL is decreased. Things can get dangerous very fast in a high-pressure cartridge like 9mm. Shortening by 0.006-0.008" would be a concern, but you are talking about shortening by 0.025" which, IMHO, is not advisable. Personally, I think your cartridge would improve its performance at your suggested OAL of 1.125", but the first thing for you to do is find some different load data using CFE at 1.100" or similar. Something that shows testing at the shorter OAL.

• Then you will want to step up your test loads in evenly spaced "increments". You went from 5.1gr to 5.3gr to 5.5gr and there's nothing evenly spaced about that. You are assuming that Chamber Pressure also climbs in evenly spaced increments, but it does not. Higher pressure makes the powder burn more efficiently, which increases the Chamber Pressure even more. So an increment of 0.2gr at the Starting Load might increase the pressure 80 psi, but 0.2gr near the max load might increase the pressure by 400+ psi. This is how guns blow up and how nice people get hurt. So if you start with 0.2gr increments at the bottom, you might consider 0.1gr increments above the mid-point.

Remember, everything we do in reloading is to control Chamber Pressure. We start with published data, we weigh powder, we measure OAL, etc, etc. Because it's always Chamber Pressure that hurts the shooter. But when a novice reloader leaves the safety of tested data and hard measurement, and starts making up stuff "on the fly" his days are numbered.

Friend to friend... please, don't do that. We enjoy your company too much.

LiveLife · Jul 8, 2020

Welcome!

As to chrono testing, some powders are more sensitive to temperature and some even reverse temperature sensitive.

So instead of focusing on ambient temperature, focus on the powder temperature.

(Like it's not the finished OAL that matters to group size rather chambered OAL after experiencing any bullet setback ... and why flyers may happen

)

On a hot day, ammo left out in the sun can warm up quickly and left chambered in a hot barrel too long, can also warm up the powder to influence your chrono data.

To keep your powder temperature more consistent, you can use an insulated ice chest so powder temperature remains more stable from start to finish. And once the barrel warms up, don't allow the chambered rounds to warm up too much.

I know this may be too much OCD, but things for you to keep in mind to prevent things like, "Hmmmm, why did my last round deviate so much?"

NedNederlander said:
Also I'll add that I like what I'm seeing with CFE Pistol at 5.5gr, so I might shorten the COL to 1.125 from 1.150 and see what those chrono at. I'm trying to work up some training and range loads that get me closer to 1150 ft/s and somewhat closely resemble the HST 124gr +P ammo.

Why?

At 5.5 gr, you are using published max charge for CFE Pistol and if you decrease the OAL, you need to proportionately reduce powder charge or will be over pressure.

Keep in mind that published load data were developed using brand new brass with greater malleability to contain the pressures. If you are using mixed range brass with unknown reload history and condition of brass, work hardening of brass will make the brass more brittle and instead of stretching to contain pressure, case wall can fail/rupture and result in damage to pistol/shooter.

When I am using mixed range brass that's been reloaded several times, I lean towards safety and use mid-to-high range load data and reserve known once-fired brass (Brass I have seen go from factory box to gun and collected afterwards with my own eyes) for max loads because wet tumbling brass that's been reloaded several times (even 9mm Major brass that's been overly expanded) will look awfully like once-fired brass.

And have you tested your finished rounds for bullet setback as bullet nose bumping the feed ramp can push the bullet deeper in the case neck? I usually measure the OAL before and after feeding the dummy round (no powder, no primer) from the magazine and releasing the slide without riding it. While I prefer to not experience any bullet setback, I will accept bullet setback of a few thousandths to be OK for general purpose range blasting ammo but if I see bullet setback of more than .005", I will address the issue by checking that I am full length resizing, reducing case flare amount, using thicker case wall brass or even using larger sized bullets - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...neck-tension-and-bullet-setback.830072/page-4

So if you are using mixed range brass and experience bullet setback, consider lowering your powder charge down from published max. And if you use shorter than published OAL, consider lowering your powder charge by .2-.3 gr depending on the amount of OAL reduction.

NedNederlander said:
Reloads 5.5 CFE 124gr FMJRN

Average: 1118 ft/s, Min: 1100 ft/s, Max: 1142 ft/s

Here's Hodgdon load data for CFE Pistol - http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

9mm 124 gr Berry's HBRN-TP CFE Pistol 1.150" COL Start 4.9 gr (1,006 fps) - Max 5.5 gr (1,120 fps)

And Speer load data for CFE Pistol (Notice reduction of max charge down to 5.3 gr due to shorter 1.135" OAL?) - https://reloading-data.speer-ammo.c...m_caliber_355-366_dia/9mm_Luger__124_rev1.pdf

9mm 124 gr Speer TMJ RN CFE Pistol 1.135" OAL Start 4.7 gr (1024 fps) - Max 5.3 gr (1127 fps)

Note that your max velocities are already exceeding published load data? That could be from variance of powder charges (How are you weighing your powder charges?) and/or from bullet setback.

Be safe.

NedNederlander · Jul 8, 2020

Thank you for welcoming me to THR. This site has been a wealth of information. That said, I guess I may have caused some confusion by starting this thread with three posts instead of just one opening post, because if you read all three posts combined you'll clearly see I'm using a Glock G19 chambered in 9x19 9mm Luger to shoot with, to buy ammo for, and have started reloading to feed. Also, I'm using Lee Precision equipment: hand press, dies, beam scale, and powder measure.

I get the whole pressure thing, but it's not like I'm trying to hit 9mm max power factor loads. I am however, as previously stated, trying to replicate my defensive carry Federal-HST 124gr +P ammo. Basically 9mm 9x19 NATO ammo. Hodgdon states 5.5 grains out of a 4" barrel using a 124 RN bullet produces 1,120 ft/s @ 33,800 PSI. And lets be honest, both Hodgdon and Hornady 9mm load data is understandably conservative with their max data, but it is not the limit of the 9mm Luger 9x19 ammo specifications, nor the higher +P specifications, nor the limits of what a Glock can handle, nor the limits of what I've read about competitive shooters using CFE Pistol chasing max power factor numbers: 7gr charges, sub 1.100 COL, and 1,300+ ft/s. I think I still have some headroom to play around with, and I'm still short of the 1,150 ft/s and estimated 35,000 PSI load I looking to assemble.

My chronograph produces a .txt data file with all the data and it includes the weather measurements. It says 89* but I can tell you it felt much hotter. The ammo went from my A/C house, to my A/C vehicle, and shot over the chrono within the first 20 minutes being at the range, and kept in the back of my vehicle as I walked 10ft to and from the bench to load new mags. If the ammo had even reached the ambient temperature by the time it was shot I'd be surprised.

The brass I used is my 1x fired picked-up factory Sellior&Bellot 124gr FMJRN 9mm Luger 9x19 ammo, of which S&B states should be traveling @1,180 ft/s. I know I'm new to reloading, but I'm a very meticulous and detail oriented person, so cases are measured for length, diameter(not measuring at the rim), case mouth diameter, case inside depth, all before and after running through the resize die. I case mouth flare to .380", taper to .377", and I have been seating bullets for a COL of 1.150" and my equipment gets a COL spread of about +/- .002". My bullet seat depth is .190" @1.150" COL, the inside case depth usually measures around .580" and a 5.5gr CFE-P charge weight in a S&B case measures an estimated .260" powder fill. All completed assembled cartridges get plunked and spun in my Glock barrels, and then all loaded in mags, then all cycled through the gun and re-measured for any bullet set back. The Lee scale and powder measure both seem to accurate to within +/- .1 grain. I don't have check weights but I do have a digital scale that measures in grams and I have found a 9mm case that weighs 60 grains, a nickel that weighs 5 grams and penny that weighs 2.5

I can assure everyone I'm doing whatever I can with what I have available to be accurate and safe. I have a mechanical background so measuring everything you can more than once for an accurate reading. I think I'm going to load 10 more @5.5gr and go down to 1.140 COL and see where that gets me with velocity. I'm here to learn, converse, and have some fun. I can handle constructive criticism so If anyone ever truly believes I'm being a danger to myself or using a flawed logic in my thinking please let me know.

LiveLife · Jul 9, 2020

NedNederlander said:
then all cycled through the gun and re-measured for any bullet set back.

No, you don't want to cycle finished rounds. If you are experiencing bullet setback, subsequent chambering will push the bullet even deeper.

Due to this reason, we usually check for bullet setback using dummy rounds (no powder, no primer). If you do not experience bullet setback, you are good to go. If you experience bullet setback of more than acceptable range of few thousands, you want to review your reloading process and correct to reduce/eliminate significant bullet setback.

I usually measure the OAL before and after feeding the dummy round (no powder, no primer) from the magazine and releasing the slide without riding it. While I prefer to not experience any bullet setback, I will accept bullet setback of a few thousandths to be OK for general purpose range blasting ammo but if I see bullet setback of more than .005", I will address the issue by checking that I am full length resizing, reducing case flare amount, using thicker case wall brass or even using larger sized bullets - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...neck-tension-and-bullet-setback.830072/page-4

NedNederlander · Jul 9, 2020

Okay. I've seen a .001" difference on a couple cartridges after cycling through a single and double stack pistol. I've assembled 30 cartridges thus far all with the same brass, bullets, crimp, and I'm good to go. My COL spread has been at most .005" (1.152"-1.147") when seating for 1.150" after coming out of the press and nothing really changes after being cycled through my pistols. And, if anyone is interested here is my reloading notes and the chrono data file for the last 10 reloads I made and tested.

Date Loaded 06-30-2020
Date Fired 07-07-2020
Firearm Used Glock G19
Barrel Length 4"
Quantity Fired 10
Case Sellior&Bellot (S&B 9x19) Brass
Case Origin Range Pickup Personal
Case Firings 1
Case Length .745-.750
Case Crimp .377
Case Diameter .389-.390
Case Depth .580
C.O.L 1.148-1.152
Bullet Hornady
Bullet Type 124gr FMJRN
Bullet Diameter .355
Bullet Length .590
Bullet Seat Depth .190
Primer CCI 500
Powder Hodgdon
Powder Type CFE Pistol
Powder Weight 5.5gr
Powder Case Fill .260
Powder Compressed No

5.5 CFE
Digital Link
Temperature: 89F
Pressure: 30.0 in Hg
Number of Shots: 10
Minimum: 1100
Maximum: 1142
Spread: 42
Average: 1118
Standard Deviation: 12
# Velocity Date
10 1123 7/7/20, 11:51 AM
9 1118 7/7/20, 11:51 AM
8 1107 7/7/20, 11:51 AM
7 1130 7/7/20, 11:51 AM
6 1100 7/7/20, 11:50 AM
5 1121 7/7/20, 11:50 AM
4 1124 7/7/20, 11:50 AM
3 1105 7/7/20, 11:50 AM
2 1110 7/7/20, 11:50 AM
1 1142 7/7/20, 11:50 AM

LiveLife · Jul 9, 2020

Looks good but based on your chrono data, looks like you are at published max.

Reducing the OAL will simply increase the velocity and as I already posted and indicated by Speer load data that used shorter 1.135" OAL and 5.3 gr, I would reduce the powder charge to 5.3 gr if using shorter OAL.

LiveLife said:
At 5.5 gr, you are using published max charge for CFE Pistol and if you decrease the OAL, you need to proportionately reduce powder charge or will be over pressure.

sparkyv · Jul 10, 2020

You mean increase the pressure, not velocity. Right LiveLife?

LiveLife · Jul 10, 2020

sparkyv said:
You mean increase the pressure, not velocity. Right LiveLife?

Actually both.

rfwobbly · Jul 10, 2020

NedNederlander said:
I guess I may have caused some confusion by starting this thread with three posts instead of just one opening post, because if you read all three posts combined you'll clearly see I'm using a Glock G19 chambered in 9x19 9mm Luger to shoot.....

If that is so, then what is this....

NedNederlander said:
Oops forgot the chrono data...

Name: Magtech 5.56x45 62gr FMJ
Shots: 20
Average: 2935 ft/s
SD: 37 ft/s
Min: 2866 ft/s
Max: 3002 ft/s
Spread: 136 ft/s
Barometric Pressure: 30.0 in Hg
Temperature: 89F
Manufacturer Data: 3085 ft/s 20" Barrel

I simply want to be clear about what we're discussing. That's all.

NedNederlander · Jul 10, 2020

Seriously? There hasn't been much pertinent discussion at all, but rather a Nagging Nellie busting my balls. I guess I should have made a few separate threads about each and every subject I mentioned: 9mm reloading, firearms I own, 9mm chrono data, a intro of myself, my AR ammo going over the chrono, etc. Or, instead of spamming the board with threads for each little thing, I guess I should have made the title of this thread more appropriate; I'm new here and started reloading 9mm Luger 9x19... I also bought my first chronograph, and I went to the gun range with a few different firearms, and I shot a few samples of each kind of ammo I own for some data... oh, that includes some 5.56x45 ammo I have for my AR... thought I'd share some of my findings...

If one is honestly not able to discern what I have attempted to discuss in my thread and subsequent posts, it would appear I must be doing it wrong. Kindly point me in the direction of the THR template for starting threads and making posts; I'll attempt to fill in the blanks to make it coherent. Let's try this; here is literally everything I wrote in my first three posts all neatly rolled up into one opening post.

NedNederlander said:
Hello. My first post here at THR. I'm new to the reloading world and I'm head over heels loving it all. I just got my first chronograph (Competition Electronics ProChrono DLX) last week and put it to good use today. Before I get to the results I thought I'd give a proper intro first.

I got into shooting later in life, early 40s, about six years ago. Since that time I've accumulated a few Glocks, and a Mossberg MMR AR and 590 shotgun. Stocked up on ammo after the 2017 Vegas incident and also my first look into reloading. But, I spent to much on the ammo so reloading got put aside. The reloading bug finally came back March of this year and I spent the next couple months on a learning binge. Finally in June I made it official and decided to begin with 9mm.

I bought the Lee hand press, 4 die set, ram prime, balance scale, and powder measure. I'm very happy with all the Lee equipment I have. I deprime my brass off press with a steel punch, rubber mallet, and a armorers block that has a perfect notch for the smaller 9mm/5.56 case. I started doing it this way before I got any reloading equipment with the brass I had on hand, and I have just kept doing it that way. Range brass gets wet tumbled by me in a repurposed large protein shake mixer bottle with hot water, a few squirts of dawn, and a couple drops of lemon juice; 40-60 minutes later I get very clean somewhat shiny brass.

I got lucky and was able to find components from a few different Academy stores in my area just before the protesting and rioting started a few weeks ago. I'm using CFE Pistol, Hornady 124gr FMJRN, and CCI 500. Got enough stuff to assemble at least 2k.

So now to some data. I started off with 10 cartridges using 5.1gr CFE and 1.150 COL. Those shot very accurate but left a soot streak 3/4 down the case. 10 more at 5.3gr/1.150 still accurate and less soot. The last 10 I put together was at 5.5gr/1.150 and those went over the chrono today along with all the other factory ammo I had on hand. For me in my beginning reloading journey THR has been a great source of info, so that's why I'm sharing my first reloading post here, and I'm looking forward to becoming much more active here as I go down the rabbit hole of reloading. Also I'll add that I like what I'm seeing with CFE Pistol at 5.5gr, so I might shorten the COL to 1.125 from 1.150 and see what those chrono at. I'm trying to work up some training and range loads that get me closer to 1150 ft/s and somewhat closely resemble the HST 124gr +P ammo.

I used a G19 4" barrel for all 9mm and the AR is 16"

Name: Magtech 5.56x45 62gr FMJ
Shots: 20
Average: 2935 ft/s
SD: 37 ft/s
Min: 2866 ft/s
Max: 3002 ft/s
Spread: 136 ft/s
Barometric Pressure: 30.0 in Hg
Temperature: 89F
Manufacturer Data: 3085 ft/s 20" Barrel

Name: Speer-Lawman CleanFire 9x19 124gr FMJRN
Shots: 15
Average: 1053 ft/s
SD: 10 ft/s
Min: 1030 ft/s
Max: 1068 ft/s
Spread: 38 ft/s
Barometric Pressure: 30.0 in Hg
Temperature: 89F
Manufacturer Data: 1090 ft/s Barrel 4"

Name: Sellier&Bellot 9x19 124gr FMJRN
Shots: 15
Average: 1120 ft/s
SD: 9 ft/s
Min: 1098 ft/s
Max: 1129 ft/s
Spread: 31 ft/s
Barometric Pressure: 30.0 in Hg
Temperature: 89F
Manufacturer Data: 1181 ft/s 5" Barrel

Name: Remington-UMC 9x19 115gr FMJRN
Shots: 15
Average: 1095 ft/s
SD: 14 ft/s
Min: 1069 ft/s
Max: 1119 ft/s
Spread: 50 ft/s
Barometric Pressure: 30.0 in Hg
Temperature: 89F
Manufacturer Data: 1145 ft/s Barrel ?

Name: Reloads 5.5 CFE 9x19 124gr FMJRN
Shots: 10
Average: 1118 ft/s
SD: 12 ft/s
Min: 1100 ft/s
Max: 1142 ft/s
Spread: 42 ft/s
Barometric Pressure: 30.0 in Hg
Temperature: 89F
Manufacturer Data: 1120 ft/s 4" Barrel

Name: Federal-HST 9x19 147gr +P JHP
Shots: 15
Average: 1031 ft/s
SD: 17 ft/s
Min: 1013 ft/s
Max: 1066 ft/s
Spread: 53 ft/s
Barometric Pressure: 30.0 in Hg
Temperature: 89F
Manufacturer Data: 1050 ft/s 4" Barrel

Name: Federal-HST 9x19 124gr +P JHP
Shots: 16
Average: 1166 ft/s
SD: 20 ft/s
Min: 1120 ft/s
Max: 1197 ft/s
Spread: 77 ft/s
Barometric Pressure: 30.0 in Hg
Temperature: 88F
Manufacturer Data: 1200 ft/s 4" Barrel

Any better? I didn't start my membership at THR making a bunch of posting asking for others to tell me what equipment and components to buy, or asking for exact details on how to make a completed cartridge, etc. The kind of posts most typically associated with people new to reloading and reloading forums. I spent a few months gathering information (a lot of it right here at THR) and making informed decisions and was able to start all on my own. So after getting everything I needed to start reloading, and finally assembling a few completed cartridges, and getting a chronograph, and getting to the range for some shooting, I decide to officially join THR becoming a member and begin a thread with some user data and a bit of background info I thought others might be interested in seeing. I was really looking forward to sharing my reloading journey and findings here at THR with the people I learned so much from, but thus far I've been a bit disappointed.

LiveLife · Jul 10, 2020

NedNederlander said:
Kindly point me in the direction of the THR template for starting threads and making posts

Handloading & Reloading Forum Rules -- Courtesy and Restraint - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/h-r-forum-rules-courtesy-and-restraint.188346/

We've gotten along for some time in Handloading and Reloading forum with only one "local rule." That had to do with the posting of heavy loads. It has been floated at the top of the forum since the first , and it has generally been closely observed by the membership, and for that I am grateful. H&R is a technically oriented forum, and most discussion pivots around techniques and asking questions and giving suggestions on how to solve problems. Compared to a couple of other forums, this has been a quiet, peaceful, backwater on THR. This suits me very well, being basically lazy and not caring to do any more moderation than absolutely necessary.

I've recently become alarmed that H&R has sometimes deteriorated into a bickerfest, with some notable examples of discourtesy. It seems that most of the really acrimonious disputes recently have concerned progressive reloading presses. Brand loyalty is one thing, but this has become reminiscent of Ford vs. Chevy, AR vs. AK, Glock plastic vs. 1911 steel, or .45 vs. .40 vs. 9mm. Maybe this is my fault for being too laid back, allowing things to take their own course, and simply deleting the few instances of unsuitable language.

Hey - - In a technical forum, when a member asks a serious question, earnestly seeking knowledge, it is not appropriate to make cute little digs, or out-and-out attacks upon the other guy's apparent choice of loading gear. It makes sense to point out if the member is laboring under some false impression. It is only nice to indicate if Brand Z has a problem with the little safety chain breaking, or perhaps that Brand Q's pretty blue paint sometimes fades when exposed to sunlight.

So, here's the drill. Write whatever you wish in direct answer to the question posed, writing about the brand in question ONLY. If Member Joe asks the question, answer Joe. If you have personal experience with that brand of gear, fine, say so. If you personally own a bit of gear that is better in your mind, you may mention it gently. You must NOT belittle or demean the other guy's choice of gear. Do NOT make unkind comments on answers given by other members. You make your answer, they make theirs. It's all a matter of opinion anyway.

It was recently mentioned that some of the more elaborate posts probably take hours to write. I know that I sometimes do a fair amount of research to give a comprehensive answer, and I spend considerable time putting it into a semi-readable form. I trust that most of you are justifiably proud when you post some magnum opus. I respectfully ask that you carefully proof read and edit it to assure that your opinion is stated without any personal attack on any other member, with no silly slams or clever flames. If any exist, your carefully crafted composition will disappear, waft away like smoke in a breeze, evaporate like dew in the desert, go - - Well, you get the idea.

THR staffers do have interests away from the board, and I may possibly miss seeing some infractions for a few days. I note, though, that many members are apparently becoming equally impatient with flames, silliness, and antagonism. More and more are clicking on the little red Report Bad Post triangle. I appreciate this responsible attitude, and I read every one. Be assured, I WILL personally review the material before I delete, erase, or edit anything. Please, treat one another with respect, so that I need not cause your finely wrought writings to disappear.

Some of the older threads combine some problem postings with some very good information. In consideration of this fact, I will not entirely delete the thread, but I will close them. Feel free to re-start an amiable discussion on the topic.

Oh, while we're at it, please discontinue the bandwidth-wasting practice of posting nothing other than some emoticom (smiley face --

or whatever) or "I agree," or, worse, the "+1" entry. If you have nothing to say, please - - say nothing. In that they indicate nothing, nothing will be lost when the post is lost.

To all who are doing well and will help out, thank you all for your cooperation. For those who will not, well, see you around.

Very sincerely,
Johnny Guest

REQUIRED READ for those posting Extra HEAVY LOAD Information - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...e-posting-extra-heavy-load-information.27444/

THIS IS IMPORTANT- - - - -

In the spirit of advancing knowledge and encouraging the open sharing of information amongst The High Road forum members, the near-unrestricted posting of handloading information and specific loads is allowed.

HOWEVER---
We owe it to one another to include proper cautions whenever we post ANY load in excess of published information. To fail in this duty may well endanger our forum associates - - either their firearms or their health.

In most of the other forums, if someone posts information in error, or in rash disregard of courtesy or propriety, little or no lasting harm is done. When dealing with high-powered firearms and the care and feeding thereof, though, someone could easily get hurt.

I am well aware that many loads have been acceptable in the past, and have been published in older loading manuals and magazine articles. I still happily use certain of these loads in MY own firearms, and do not feel I am at risk. Do as you wish with YOUR firearms and when you are placing only YOURSELF at risk.

If you wish to share such OLD loading data, please specifically quote the exact source, with the note that it is now considered over max. With NEW data you have worked up and which is beyond currently published maximums, PLEASE heed this admonition:

At the beginning of your message, insert in BOLD type a no-uncertain-terms cautionary note, for example:

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

You are not constrained to use this exact language, but please feel free to cut and past it into your message.

As a forum moderator, I feel very strongly about this, and will not hesitate to completely delete, or heavily edit any post which I believe violates the spirit of this procedure.

Please understand: I am not attempting to restrict what you send in a private e-mail, nor anything you wish to put on YOUR private web site. But I feel this procedure is important to protect one another and the THR staff.

Thanks for your cooperation in this regard.

Johnny Guest
Handloading & Reloading Forum Moderator
The High Road

Late Edit: It is pointed out to me that there are also some real hazards to going BELOW certain minimums. Some loads with certain powders may give badly erratic pressures at very low load density. The above cautions should be observed when writing up loads UNDER manufacturers' posted MINIMUMS.

Best,
JPG

I wholeheartedly agree with Johnny as an owner of the old manuals. It seems that a proportion of current weapons are not made of the same quality as some older ones and current weapons should use current loading guidelines. I have some horror stories of reloading injuries from not following good advice and testing the accepted limits. So exceed the published limits at your own risk and blame your hand and facial injuries on only yourself.

John Paul co-moderator

LiveLife · Jul 10, 2020

NedNederlander said:
I guess I should have made a few separate threads about each and every subject I mentioned: 9mm reloading, firearms I own, 9mm chrono data, a intro of myself, my AR ammo going over the chrono, etc.

I guess I should have made the title of this thread more appropriate

That may have been a better approach. Instead of a broad/multiple topic thread, THR mods have favored threads that are specific topic oriented that will help narrow the discussion by other members to either help address any problems posted or comment based on their experience.

And you know, like any other online forum, people are people and they tend to post their opinions based on their life experiences, which often is very different.

I lurked on THR for years but decided to join and post because of unwarranted mistreatment I saw targeted specific to an equipment manufacturer who has resisted the temptation of globalization and still manufactures all products in the USA - Yes, that red color press maker. Because despite having used blue and red colored presses, I have managed to produce match rounds with consistent finished dimensions on both but some THR members insisted that only blue colored presses were capable of producing match grade rounds with consistent dimensions ... This is false as I have produced match grade rounds with black, green, orange, blue AND red colored presses.

And the solution to a press problem is not always a different color replacement rather investigating the root cause and addressing it to resolution. And as a collaborative group, THR members have addressed just about every press issue related to Pro 1000 that we hardly see problems asked anymore or resolve the posted problems quickly referencing several problem/resolution threads:

Pro 1000 problem/resolution support thread - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/lee-pro-1000-solutions-no-bashing.507454/

ABLP/Pro 400 problem/resolution support thread - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...0-technical-support-thread-no-bashing.835405/

NedNederlander said:
I didn't start my membership at THR making a bunch of posting asking for others to tell me what equipment and components to buy, or asking for exact details on how to make a completed cartridge, etc.

This is excerpt from THR H&R Forum Rules - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/h-r-forum-rules-courtesy-and-restraint.188346/

"So, here's the drill. Write whatever you wish in direct answer to the question posed, writing about the brand in question ONLY. If Member Joe asks the question, answer Joe.

If you have personal experience with that brand of gear, fine, say so. If you personally own a bit of gear that is better in your mind, you may mention it gently. You must NOT belittle or demean the other guy's choice of gear. Do NOT make unkind comments on answers given by other members. You make your answer, they make theirs. It's all a matter of opinion anyway."

In my early days of posting 10 years ago, you should have seen the grilling I got from certain THR members, especially those who didn't even own or used the particular brand equipment.

NedNederlander said:
I spent a few months gathering information (a lot of it right here at THR) and making informed decisions and was able to start all on my own. So after getting everything I needed to start reloading, and finally assembling a few completed cartridges, and getting a chronograph, and getting to the range for some shooting, I decide to officially join THR becoming a member and begin a thread with some user data and a bit of background info I thought others might be interested in seeing. I was really looking forward to sharing my reloading journey and findings here at THR with the people I learned so much from, but thus far I've been a bit disappointed.

One thing I have seen moderators focus on, especially for technical Handloading & Reloading category, is safe practice of reloading. Recommending going over published max is discouraged and use of disclaimers is requested (as expressed in "posting extra heavy load").

If you want to share your "reloading journey and findings", many members have started threads that are titled just that, "reloading journey and findings."

But when a thread appears to be a technical load data thread, particularly loading at published max or going over max, you bet ya, there will be replies, almost like a knee jerk reaction, and may warrant warm to hot opinions because you know, we had one too many, "Funny thing happened at the range today" threads where guns blew up and body parts injured.

I have seen almost 10 pistols blow up (BTW, none of them Glocks as KaBooms happened/guns blew up long before Glocks were in existence) and many of the shooters were match shooters (some of them even seasoned reloaders). So we cannot take the safety issue lightly. And when we are reloading at near max/max load data, particularly with mixed range brass or brass that's been fired several times, we need to factor in reloading variables like brass work hardening that makes brass less malleable to contain pressure.

And more and more, overly expanded (think thinned case wall) 9mm Major brass that are wet tumbled to look shiny are entering the brass circulation that us reloaders use. So when resizing effort is particularly heavy, I check to see if I should toss the brass as thinned case wall tend to experience rupture/case wall failure that leads to KaBooms.

So take both sides of perspectives and reconsider titling the threads focused on either problem/solution or reloading journey but do keep in mind you are going to receive opinionated responses because THR is an online forum full of people (And in my experience, nicer/kinder than many other forums I have been to) and most of time, they are focused on your safety and posting safe reloading information.

Here's another "opinion".

To me, most laboratory pressure testing for published load data is done within normal room temperature range out of sunlight, often in a single shot universal barrel fixture. But us reloaders often shoot in hot/cold temperatures, expose ammunition to sunlight, leave rounds chambered in hot barrel, don't check OAL reduction after chambering rounds from the magazine (Yeah, who does that), etc. So even though we used "safe" max published load data, depending on shooting variables (Temperature of powder, bullet setback, barrel chamber temperature, etc.) and temperature/reverse temperature sensitivity of powders, actual chamber pressure could be over published max.
'
So for those of us not using brand new brass in less than ideal laboratory shooting conditions will make adjustments to our powder charge to compensate for these shooting variables while working to reduce the reloading variables as much as we can.

Just my "opinion".

Peace.

NedNederlander · Jul 10, 2020

Well this thread seems to be going about as well as the last moments of the Hindenburg's voyage to New Jersey. Post number #14 was primarily directed to a certain member for basically being the equivalent of the annoying spell-check-police in there two posts; yes there and their do not have the same meaning but does everyone still comprehend what was being said when used incorrectly in a sentence ... yes! Do I need to list 9mm Luger 9x19 every time later in a discussion after it has already been established, or can it be referenced as 9mm and be understood? Can I say I own an rifle, and on the same day I shot a bunch of different 9mm Luger 9x19 ammo through a pistol I also shot some 5.56x45 ammo from a rifle over my new chrono, and yes, I did not remove the rifle data from that days chrono data file and posted it in a thread that has been about my 9mm Luger 9x19 chrono data and small batch of reloads? Is somebody really going to get confused somehow with that little nugget of rifle data that was clearly distinguishable from the rest? If I'm breaking a rule by posting a chrono data file that contains clearly labeled but different firearms platforms and calibers, and beforehand mentioned that it was in there, just let me know.

I have absolutely no problem with any advisory discussions about exceeding max published load data, nor have I provided any data or logs saying I have or that I'm recommending one to do so. Just I was contemplating seating a bullet .010"-.025" deeper, LOL. What If I had a pistol that would not reliably feed a COL of Hodgdon's RECOMMENDED 1.150"? Is the COL Hodgdon used an absolute minimum length like the maximum charge weight? I'm at COL 1.150" and bullet seat depth of .190", the 9mm Luger 9x19 has a COL range of 1.000"-1.169", and more than a few I've seen seating quite deeper than .200" I've already mentioned the cartridge and my firearms published limits. My research shows CFE-Pistol powder also has a higher ceiling than the published data based on real world user data, hence it being a popular powder with max power factor shooters seeking ft/s, and pressure, way above Hodgdon's published max charge weight. If I was using a powder like Tightgroup or Bullseye saying I'm at max charge weight and looking for more to get me near the cartridge and equipment limit too, then I could understand the constant concern. I'd rather seat .010" deeper than go up another .01gr powder charge to squeeze out those last few ft/s I'd like to have for my limit, while still not hitting or coming really close the equipment or components limit.

When I was asking for a template, and most of the contents of post #14, it was dripping with sarcasm; i.e. show me the exact order of what to write, and how write it, and where to write something so as not to have someone confused about what I'm writing; i.e. if what I'm writing about is actually 9mm Luger 9x19 124gr bullets, or what and why is rifle data in your chrono log being posted. I wasn't asking for forum and posting rules to be posted. I'm not trying to bicker with anyone. It just seems some people aren't reading everything I have written and feel they need to point out something they find irrelevant or interject something they think I've been talking about; e.g. I've hardly mentioned reloading equipment and I don't care who uses what or what brand.

If this thread had gone according to plan there would not be any further broad discussion about anything different than the posted title. I've got a chrono and posted up some data in my initial post; take it or leave it. I'm reloading 9mm Luger 9x19 with 1x fired personal brass, CFE Pistol powder, CCI 500 primers, and Hornady 124gr FMJRN bullets, and I'm loading more cartridges with these components and testing them with my chronograph, as well as following up here with my findings... hence my thread title 9mm ammo and chrono data. I went to the range this morning and shot some more of my new 9mm Luger 9x19 reloads, as well as two different brands of factory 9mm Luger 9x19 ammo I found in the back of my safe. That was it, no other calibers or firearms shot today. I'll just keep the technical load and chrono data from today to myself instead of posting it here, as I don't want to cause any further confusion about what I'm talking about resulting in somebody somehow possibly getting themselves blown up, or giving someone else a reason for posting more stuff about things not relevant to any discussion I'm trying to have.

Suedenflames68 · Jul 11, 2020

The "recommended" OAL that a loading info source puts out is actually the length that they used during testing to establish the maximum charge. So yes, at max charge that is minimum length. Different sources will use different oal lengths and with that usually different max charges. Always good to compare multiple sources. If that length won't feed well or pass a plunk test in your barrel making it necessary to make it shorter then the max charge should be reduced.

cali_blues · Jul 11, 2020

Thanks Ned for sharing the data, I appreciate it.
That S&B factory ammo is cookin’! And with a low ES/SD to boot.

Otto · Jul 11, 2020

NedNederlander said:
I was contemplating seating a bullet .010"-.025" deeper, LOL. What If I had a pistol that would not reliably feed a COL of Hodgdon's RECOMMENDED 1.150"?

Then change bullets.... Hornady recommends 1.060" COL for their 124 gr XTP.
But why bother, your Glock feeds Hornady's FMJ's at 1.150" just fine. Right?

NedNederlander · Jul 11, 2020

Suedenflames68 said:
The "recommended" OAL that a loading info source puts out is actually the length that they used during testing to establish the maximum charge. So yes, at max charge that is minimum length. Different sources will use different oal lengths and with that usually different max charges. Always good to compare multiple sources. If that length won't feed well or pass a plunk test in your barrel making it necessary to make it shorter then the max charge should be reduced.

1.150" is the COL Hodgdon used for the entire powder weight load range. So I should be able to take 4.8gr of CFE Pistols minimum load and start seating a bullet deeper from 1.150" until I start hitting the 5.5gr maximum velocity 1,120 ft/s and/or pressure 33,800 PSI, two different load recipes to get the same velocity and/or pressure?

cali_blues said:
Thanks Ned for sharing the data, I appreciate it.
That S&B factory ammo is cookin’! And with a low ES/SD to boot.

Your Welcome. Overall I like the S&B I just wish the velocity avg was closer to their published number of 1,181 ft/s.

Otto said:
Then change bullets.... Hornady recommends 1.060" COL for their 124 gr XTP.
But why bother, your Glock feeds Hornady's FMJ's at 1.150" just fine. Right?

I wish I could find some XTP bullets or really find any bullets these days. I'm fortunate to have found the bullets I have so that's what I've got to work with. I'm not having any feeding issues with my pistols. The only reason I was talking about going deeper is to squeeze some more ft/s from the cartridge. I'd think the more important question between the FMJ 1.150" COL and the XTP 1.060" COL is what's the bullet seat depth on each, and what's the airgap space between powder and bullet of each.

NedNederlander · Jul 11, 2020

"FYI.. What I'm seeing with 5.5gr CFE Pistol in S&B 1x fired .750" length case would be a estimated .130" air gap using the FMJ bullet and 1.150" COL with the cartridge being vertical. Not anywhere close to being compressed. Also, the 10 reloads I put over the chrono yesterday with a max charge and a COL reduced by .010" produced almost exactly the same results that I posted from Tuesday; ES/SD tightened up a bit, the ft/s actually dropped a few, almost the same weather conditions, and I did trickle load these rather than from the Lee powder measure as before.

LiveLife · Jul 11, 2020

There is no need to estimate or guess anything as reloaders work with tools that could measure to .001".

You can determine the bullet seating depth by subtracting the bullet length from OAL then you can determine the max case fill of powder charge with said OAL by doing some calculation.

Here's an example of calculating bullet seating depth and maximum case fill of powder charge using RMR 124 gr FMJ RN using 1.135" OAL and WST - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-discussions.778197/page-10#post-11419509

"I measured several 9mm RMR 124 gr FMJ RN and longer bullets measure .598"

So using OAL/COL of 1.135", my max case fill is:

OAL - Bullet length = 1.135" - .598" = .537"

I measured some resized WIN cases and I got .747" as average resized case length.

So I subtract max case fill from average resized case length and I get .747" - .537" = .210"

I used the end of my dial calipers to mark the inside of the case and filled it with WST to mark and weighed the charge of 4.6 gr."

ballman6711 · Jul 11, 2020

I've been following this thread and decided to say a few things.

First, welcome to THR. A great bunch of people and a vast wealth of knowledge here. Use it and learn from it.

Second, LiveLife is giving you some good suggestions along with the forum rules. Take it how you will.

Third, and most importantly, velocity does not equal pressure. Velocity tells how fast the bullet is traveling, and is another piece in the puzzle, but unless you have a way of measuring pressure (and most including myself don't) you just don't know what the pressure is.

I've read your posts (and this entire thread) and I understand what you're saying, but we here live in a world where a few thousandths of an inch or a VERY small change in weight can get us hurt or worse, or at best can ruin a nice firearm. Specific details are important.

IF you choose to deviate from standard load data, that is entirely your decision. Many do and have acceptable results, some don't. I'll admit to doing it, but I haven't asked for anyone's approval. I haven't gone above max published loads, but have gone below min published loads. My decision and my responsibility. Don't look for any one here to give you the green light on coloring out of the lines.

Again, welcome to THR, I think it's a great place and if you decide to stay I think you'll like it here.

chris

Charlie98 · Jul 11, 2020

ballman6711 said:
I've read your posts (and this entire thread) and I understand what you're saying, but we here live in a world where a few thousandths of an inch or a VERY small change in weight can get us hurt or worse, or at best can ruin a nice firearm. Specific details are important.

No more true than with 9mm. Of all the cartridges I load for, as far as handgun cartridges, 9mm has been the biggest headache in the 35 years I've been reloading.

9mm ammo and chrono data

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Similar threads