Strive to carry the handgun you would want anywhere, everywhere.

Unfortunately, "better than nothing" is a compromise that people in realistic scenarios must contend with on a daily basis. Not everyone gets to dictate the environments and social constraints with which they are engaged.

There is more to life than always carrying the "best" defensive gun. When I took my daughter to the "Father Daughter Dance" at church, I was wearing a tucked-in shirt, slacks and a tie. That was not an environment where thing to conceal some high-cap autoloader was appropriate- I pocket carried a compact revolver.

I am not denying myself or my family from quality life experiences just because I can't participate with a 15+1 9mm and two extra mags.

.455_Hunter said:

Unfortunately, "better than nothing" is a compromise that people in realistic scenarios must contend with on a daily basis. Not everyone gets to dictate the environments and social constraints with which they are engaged.

There is more to life than always carrying the "best" defensive gun. When I took my daughter to the "Father Daughter Dance" at church, I was wearing a tucked-in shirt, slacks and a tie. That was not an environment where thing to conceal some high-cap autoloader was appropriate- I pocket carried a compact revolver.

I am not denying myself or my family from quality life experiences just because I can't participate with a 15+1 9mm and two extra mags.

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Thats just you denying yourself from doing it, because, for some reason, you dont want to do it. Its easily done, and in everyday clothes, if you "want" to do it.

.455_Hunter said:

There is more to life than always carrying the "best" defensive gun. When I took my daughter to the "Father Daughter Dance" at church, I was wearing a tucked-in shirt, slacks and a tie. That was not an environment where thing to conceal some high-cap autoloader was appropriate- I pocket carried a compact revolver.

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Definitely an individual thing, with my body type I would find a double stack Glock 19 easier to conceal, tucked, in that situation than a pocket .38, even dancing.

.455_Hunter said:

When I took my daughter to the "Father Daughter Dance" at church, I was wearing a tucked-in shirt, slacks and a tie.

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Father Daughter Dance merits at least a sport coat

Trunk Monkey said:

Father Daughter Dance merits at least a sport coat

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Remember, it's Boulder, so we are doing good to not have the church turned into a 24/7 vagrant sanctuary. If some of the people in attendance even SUSPECTED there was a firearm present, they would have an epic emotional meltdown.

I used to carry p229's mostly with the occasional 629, p226 or p290RS. Now I have transitioned to various flavvors of p365 (SAS, standard, XL, with or without a light) depending on concealment requirements for all of my intended carry. Practicing is 80% with a .22lr and then I rotate the various p365's in.



I did originally get my p32 to carry in sweat pants but with the cell phone, extra mag, wallet and keys it was still too heavy so now I have the Alien Gear belly band. It is well-made and comfortable although the cell phone holder and extra mag carrier seem a bit flimsy.




https://aliengearholsters.com/belly-band-holsters.html

AK103K said:

Thats just you denying yourself from doing it, because, for some reason, you dont want to do it. Its easily done, and in everyday clothes, if you "want" to do it.

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Yup- The probability and implications of exposure outweigh the probability of needing 46 rounds of 9mm in that scenario. Going unarmed is not an option, but there can be a comfortable medium.

Your assessment may vary, and neither is "wrong".

.455_Hunter said:

Remember, it's Boulder, so we are doing good to not have the church turned into a 24/7 vagrant sanctuary. If some of the people in attendance even SUSPECTED there was a firearm present, they would have an epic emotional meltdown.

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My comment had nothing to do with guns.

Having said that, I attend a church where the senior pastor asks me to recommend a carry gun

It sometimes seems to me that folks are more likely to change the handgun they want to carry rather than change their style of dress. It's almost like the path of least resistance -- "I'm not gonna dress different, I'll just carry a smaller gun."

I'd rather appear a little overdressed for an occasion (a sport jacket or vest) than underdressed. It's like I tell my son-in-law: "Would it kill you to dress like a grown-up sometime?" Maybe I'm just old, and I don't care about how people might think of my fashion statements.

Trunk Monkey said:

My comment had nothing to do with guns.

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Fair enough.

IDK I've said this before but a bunch of people around here dress like they do all their shopping at REI. I don't look the slightest bit out of place in Wrangler cargo pants and a camp shirt. I wouldn't look out of place in Wrangler Jeans and a vest either.

And let's not forget that our first snow of 2019 was in early October and our last snow of that winter was in June of 2020. In fact it's snowing right now. I wouldn't look out of place in a Parka either.

The majority of time I could hide a Model 29 and no one would bat an eye a d I often forget that other people have different wardrobe limitations

Kleanbore said:

Having been retired now for more than a dozen years, that comment sounds good to me.

A sport jacket looks nicer, works very well for concealment, and may actually be better in that it does not say "CCW" as might my untucked shirt and cargo pants.

Thanks for the post. You have me thinking.

As usual.

Heh!

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I saw someone the other day, I think I was waiting in line, with a casual vest on in 80 degree temps and all I could think of was 'is he carrying'. He did print a little at the 4:30 even through the vest but not really noticeable unless you were looking for it.

SharpDog said:

I saw someone the other day, I think I was waiting in line, with a casual vest on in 80 degree temps and all I could think of was 'is he carrying'. He did print a little at the 4:30 even through the vest but not really noticeable unless you were looking for it.

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Gotta love the old '90s photographer "shoot me" vest!

Of all the people I know that have obtained a concealed carry license since Obama became president, none of those people started with a larger carry gun and went down to a smaller carry gun. They all started with the smaller carry gun and it's important to remember that before they got a carry license virtually none of them carried a gun at all. Even if they were prior gun owners.

Now, some of those people that started small did move up. But most stayed at pocket gun status in regards to what they carry.

To ignore the evidence of this with the American carrying public as a whole is to ignore the boom in pocket gun sales over the last 15 years. Think of when the Ruger LCP got introduced and the rush on, and subsequent drought of, .380 ACP ammo at that time.

Old Dog said:

I'd rather appear a little overdressed for an occasion (a sport jacket or vest) than underdressed. It's like I tell my son-in-law: "Would it kill you to dress like a grown-up sometime?" Maybe I'm just old, and I don't care about how people might think of my fashion statements.

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Makes me curious if his job or choice of hobbies dictates the way he dresses? My sports coat gathers dust 10 months out of the year as it just doesn't fit into what I do on a day to day basis. If it wasn't for church during the winter, my sports coat wouldn't be seen in public at all.

chicharrones said:

Of all the people I know that have obtained a concealed carry license since Obama became president, none of those people started with a larger carry gun and went down to a smaller carry gun. They all started with the smaller carry gun and it's important to remember that before they got a carry license virtually none of them carried a gun at all. Even if they were prior gun owners.

Now, some of those people that started small did move up. But most stayed at pocket gun status in regards to what they carry.

To ignore the evidence of this with the American carrying public as a whole is to ignore the boom in pocket gun sales over the last 15 years. Think of when the Ruger LCP got introduced and the rush on, and subsequent drought of, .380 ACP ammo at that time.

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The boom is understood, and why (sorta). Ignoring the fact that the skill level of most people who carry that sort of gun, is closer to nil than it is better than average, to me, is pretty scary.

Whats scary (again, to me anyway) is that those people seem to think they are prepared, simply because they have a gun.

When was the last time you actually saw anyone shooting practically and realistically, from how they carry guns like that in practice? If you carry one, how often do you shoot/practice like that?

Since they are so popular, you would think they would be running classes aimed strictly at them and their "practical" use. I havent checked, but do any schools run classes aimed at that specific group?

I know they are popular, but it seems to me, for the wrong reasons.

AK103K said:

The boom is understood, and why (sorta). Ignoring the fact that the skill level of most people who carry that sort of gun, is closer to nil than it is better than average, to me, is pretty scary.

Whats scary (again, to me anyway) is that those people seem to think they are prepared, simply because they have a gun.

When was the last time you actually saw anyone shooting practically and realistically, from how they carry guns like that in practice? If you carry one, how often do you shoot/practice like that?

Since they are so popular, you would think they would be running classes aimed strictly at them and their "practical" use. I havent checked, but do any schools run classes aimed at that specific group?

I know they are popular, but it seems to me, for the wrong reasons.

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As long as the buyers of those pocket guns, any gun really, follow the 4 main firearms rules they don't scare me at all. Since their not defending me, they can keep those guns in their holsters for life for all I care. In fact, I don't see anyone around me unholster their guns in public ever, whether pocket or IWB/OWB.

Regarding shooting classes for pocket guns, individual instruction at local ranges is what I've seen around here. You just got to sign up and pay the "tuition" cost.

Of course, there are more famous schools that offer a higher level of education if one wishes. https://www.gunsite.com/classes/pocket-pistol/

chicharrones said:

Of all the people I know that have obtained a concealed carry license since Obama became president, none of those people started with a larger carry gun and went down to a smaller carry gun. They all started with the smaller carry gun and it's important to remember that before they got a carry license virtually none of them carried a gun at all. Even if they were prior gun owners.

Now, some of those people that started small did move up. But most stayed at pocket gun status in regards to what they carry.

To ignore the evidence of this with the American carrying public as a whole is to ignore the boom in pocket gun sales over the last 15 years. Think of when the Ruger LCP got introduced and the rush on, and subsequent drought of, .380 ACP ammo at that time.

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I started in 2007. I did start with a larger gun. An old Ruger P-series. I only had 2 handguns, it & a Dan Wesson revolver. Next was a Springfield XD 40, then a Kel-Tec P-11. Then I got a Taurus PT-111 G2. The G2 with its G-26 size frame & barrel & G-19 sized grip made me realize I could easily carry a Compact sized gun since the grip is what prints not the length. I wound up selling the XD & the Taurus after I got a M&P 2.0 Compact with a 4" barrel. I still have a smaller 9mm but I much prefer the M&P. I consider the Compact size the goldilocks size. Large enough to be easy to shoot well, small enough to conceal. I do find myself tempted by the P-365 but it isn't likely I will buy anything soon. Waiting to see if things calm down.

chicharrones said:

As long as the buyers of those pocket guns, any gun really, follow the 4 main firearms rules they don't scare me at all. Since their not defending me, they can keep those guns in their holsters for life for all I care. In fact, I don't see anyone around me unholster their guns in public ever, whether pocket or IWB/OWB.

Regarding shooting classes for pocket guns, individual instruction at local ranges is what I've seen around here. You just got to sign up and pay the "tuition" cost.

Of course, there are more famous schools that offer a higher level of education if one wishes. https://www.gunsite.com/classes/pocket-pistol/

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Im referring to if they actually have to try to use them. Are you comfortable with those people drawing and shooting something they have most likely never drawn and fired before around you?

Something like that Gunsite course is what Im referring to, but Im not seeing someone whos buying a Ruger LCP or Taurus paying $1200 plus a case of ammo, signing up for that.

chicharrones said:

To ignore the evidence of this with the American carrying public as a whole is to ignore the boom in pocket gun sales over the last 15 years.

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All this "evidence" really tells us is that the American carrying public, as a general rule, is lazy and not all the way committed to carrying the most effective handgun possible.

AK103K said:

m referring to if they actually have to try to use them. Are you comfortable with those people drawing and shooting something they have most likely never drawn and fired before around you?

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As I said earlier in this thread (or maybe it was one of the numerous recent threads in a similar vein), I spend a lot of time at gun clubs and ranges in my area, and I rarely, seriously rarely, ever see folks engaged in productive shooting of pocket sized guns. I occasionally see some guy emptying a cylinder from a J-frame or a mag from a tiny .380 at a target three or five yards away, but can't tell you the last time I saw anyone practicing any significant marksmanship with a little handgun, much less any type of actual training (i.e., drawing, moving, reloads), even out in the public shooting areas on forest service land.

chicharrones said:

Of all the people I know that have obtained a concealed carry license since Obama became president, none of those people started with a larger carry gun and went down to a smaller carry gun. They all started with the smaller carry gun and it's important to remember that before they got a carry license virtually none of them carried a gun at all. Even if they were prior gun owners.

Now, some of those people that started small did move up. But most stayed at pocket gun status in regards to what they carry.

To ignore the evidence of this with the American carrying public as a whole is to ignore the boom in pocket gun sales over the last 15 years. Think of when the Ruger LCP got introduced and the rush on, and subsequent drought of, .380 ACP ammo at that time.

Click to expand...

To me that says they view the gun, perhaps subconsciously, as a talisman against badguys and not a serious tool for defense. My brother is kinda like that, has a pistol for "home defense" that's locked in a closet, unloaded, somewhere that he drags to the range for a mag or two maybe once a year. How that's more than minimally useful, I don't know, but considering how big of a lib he is the fact that even owns a high capacity assault pistol is impressive enough I guess.

Unless they are one of those rare folks who train, practically, with a pocket mouse gun. Like others, I've never actually seen anyone do that before but I'm sure there are folks out there who do.

Kleanbore said:

Yes indeed.

And unrelated to the kind of gun.

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And throughout relatively recent history, not limited to just civilians. I recall the tales of LE armorers having to hammer out dud verdigris encrusted ammo from detective's revolvers.

Talk about the ultimate talisman...

An interesting thread! It does seem to me that (in my experience) 95% of citizen, non-LE CCW folks do no meaningful training regardless of the sidearm they carry. I suppose that an utterly untrained person will be a bit more effective with a Beretta 92F than they would be with a Beretta 950 simply due to the fact that larger guns are easier to shoot well than smaller guns. There are lots of reasons that people don't train. First off not everyone lives in an area with access to good training. And in the economy we have now circa 2020 a lot of folks are lucky to keep the lights on and food on the table; there's not a lot left over for training classes, ammo, travel, etc. And training regularly can be problematic when you may go months without finding any ammo to purchase. One would hope people would stock in up "good times" but about 40% of the country hasn't seen any good times in years.

In a perfect world I guess we wouldn't need to CCW at all. In the next best world we would always CCW a full sized gun, wear body armor and be armed 100% of the time. However in the real world those things aren't always possible. The very highly respected author and trainer Greg Ellifritz mentions in his excellent book "Choose Adventure" that we can't let our fear prevent us from having enriching life experiences. Despite being a recognized expert in firearms and martial arts he travels frequently to places & countries where having a firearm is absolutely impossible. He has written extensively on other security measures that don't rely on a firearm. If he can travel in Columbia and Guatemala unarmed there's probably a way most of us can safely walk to the mailbox with just an LCR.