Weird CCW: short barreled single action.

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I have been a student of the Frontier West since the 1970s. I know of no credible, documented instance of someone exchanging a loaded cylinder for an empty cylinder (mid gunfight) in the percussion era, or in the cartridge era that followed. This whole idea is pure Hollywood.

If they thought they needed more than the 5-6 rounds their primary carry provided their speed reload was a second revolver, or even just a pocket gun or derringer. If they knew they were going into a fight a repeating rifle (think 66 or 73 Winchester) would be the primary weapon. In town and at closer ranges a double barrel shotgun might replace the Winchester.

And to move the discussion into the 21st Century, unless a single action revolver is THE gun you shoot most and best, and manipulation of the hammer and trigger are second nature, choose something less quaint. Getting shot at is not the time for fantasy.

Dave
 
JCooperfan1911 said:
The FBI statistics have shown that the average civilian gunfight is over in 3 round or less, and the odds of more than 6 rounds ever being needed in a civilian defensive encounter are next door to zero.

Add the tremendous reliability, ease of use, safety, accuracy, and power of a single action revolver and you end up with an extremely effective carry gun.
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I agree with this
 
Dave T said:
I have been a student of the Frontier West since the 1970s. I know of no credible, documented instance of someone exchanging a loaded cylinder for an empty cylinder (mid gunfight) in the percussion era, or in the cartridge era that followed. This whole idea is pure Hollywood.

If they thought they needed more than the 5-6 rounds their primary carry provided their speed reload was a second revolver, or even just a pocket gun or derringer. If they knew they were going into a fight a repeating rifle (think 66 or 73 Winchester) would be the primary weapon. In town and at closer ranges a double barrel shotgun might replace the Winchester.

And to move the discussion into the 21st Century, unless a single action revolver is THE gun you shoot most and best, and manipulation of the hammer and trigger are second nature, choose something less quaint. Getting shot at is not the time for fantasy.

Dave
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Maybe totally Hollywood but still seems doable. Since my plan is a 45acp/45colt I already get a second cylinder anyway.

As for me though, I've owned my Blackhawk for over a decade, single actions are second nature to me. Even double actions I shoot about 90 percent single action
 
JCooperfan1911 said:
The FBI statistics have shown that the average civilian gunfight is over in 3 round or less, and the odds of more than 6 rounds ever being needed in a civilian defensive encounter are next door to zero.
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Not this again. Then why do you bother carrying a gun at all if zero is the likelihood of needing it?

What happens when you get more than "next door to zero"?

Hoping for the best isnt a plan. Planning on the worst and basing things accordingly, is a plan. :thumbup:

Antihero said:
Maybe totally Hollywood but still seems doable. Since my plan is a 45acp/45colt I already get a second cylinder anyway.

As for me though, I've owned my Blackhawk for over a decade, single actions are second nature to me. Even double actions I shoot about 90 percent single action
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I like SA's (to a point) as much as the next guy, but Im also realistic about what they are, especially when compared to whats available today, when choosing a serious weapon.

Choosing things that are literally what youre betting your life on, based on Hollywood, nostalgia, or emotion, makes no sense.

And why you would limit yourself to SA with a DA gun makes even less sense. Its like youre intentionally trying to fight yourself and give up any kind of advantage.

The way you prove your theory is on the practice range, doing drills that put you under some stress and are as "realistic" as possible. Im betting reality sets in pretty quick, if you actually do that.
 
AK103K said:
Not this again. Then why do you bother carrying a gun at all if zero is the likelihood of needing it?

What happens when you get more than "next door to zero"?

Hoping for the best isnt a plan. Planning on the worst and basing things accordingly, is a plan. :thumbup:


I like SA's (to a point) as much as the next guy, but Im also realistic about what they are, especially when compared to whats available today, when choosing a serious weapon.

Choosing things that are literally what youre betting your life on, based on Hollywood, nostalgia, or emotion, makes no sense.

And why you would limit yourself to SA with a DA gun makes even less sense. Its like youre intentionally trying to fight yourself and give up any kind of advantage.

The way you prove your theory is on the practice range, doing drills that put you under some stress and are as "realistic" as possible. Im betting reality sets in pretty quick, if you actually do that.
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I'm not basing it on emotion or whatever, it's what I'm comfortable with. I've fired many thousands of rounds thru my Blackhawk and it's second nature to cock the hammer coming down off recoil. Usually it's: first round DA, second round SA, every other round SA.

I have other guns for carry too, it's not like this is something that's my only carry gun. Since I carry for animals mostly and people barely it's a valid reason.

Hell, I've carried my Blackhawk more than anything else in my life.
 
Antihero said:
...I've fired many thousands of rounds thru my Blackhawk and it's second nature to cock the hammer coming down off recoil. Usually it's: first round DA, second round SA, every other round SA...
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I may have missed something. Which model Blackhawk is double action?

Kevin
 
StrawHat said:
I may have missed something. Which model Blackhawk is double action?

Kevin
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I said that because of his comment on using SA on a DA gun.

I'm saying that because I've shot the Blackhawk so much, SA is second nature to me.

More clear?
 
Antihero said:
I said that because of his comment on using SA on a DA gun.

I'm saying that because I've shot the Blackhawk so much, SA is second nature to me.

More clear?
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Two different types of guns and still not how the DA are meant to be shot. It limits you and takes away their advantage.

I think youre fooling yourself if you really think you can shoot faster and with accuracy while thumb cocking a DA revolver (or a SA revolver) compared to shooting it DAO.

Id be willing to bet, from the holster or not, I can have the gun empty and all rounds on target, before you can even get a couple of rounds off.
 
AK103K said:
Two different types of guns and still not how the DA are meant to be shot. It limits you and takes away their advantage.

I think youre fooling yourself if you really think you can shoot faster and with accuracy while thumb cocking a DA revolver (or a SA revolver) compared to shooting it DAO.

Id be willing to bet, from the holster or not, I can have the gun empty and all rounds on target, before you can even get a couple of rounds off.
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I'm not saying that and I haven't said that, you are saying that. Nothing more. There is no fooling here.

This is not a rounds-on-target sort of problem, nor have I mentioned it is. It's obviously a concern to you but it's not to me, at all.

Of course a single action isn't as fast as say, an automatic, but an auto isn't as good as a shotgun at taking down geese either. I don't want to take down geese either so I'm not worried about that criteria either.
 
Antihero said:
Of course a single action isn't as fast as say, an automatic, but an auto isn't as good as a shotgun at taking down geese either. I don't want to take down geese either so I'm not worried about that criteria either.
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There are “auto” shotguns. ;)

If you are comfortable with single-action revolver shooting, that is OK. I am quite comfortable shooting SAA-pattern single-action revolvers, too, though, at least in my hands, cocking DA revolvers is not nearly as efficient and expedient as cocking SA revolvers, and my SA shots with DA revolvers are not more accurate, so I would be very unlikely to cock a DA revolver. Several of my DA revolvers have spur-less hammers, and some of those are DA-only.

Once upon a time, my P229R duty pistol, and my usual secondary handgun, an SP101, were both taken-down, and covered with CLP, after a shooting session, when I realized it was almost time to meet a colleague at a steak house. Rather than take the time to open the safe, to get a different weapon, I decided to carry one handgun that was not in the safe, a U.S. Firearms Single Action revolving pistol. To make a long story short, I very nearly “presented” that SA sixgun, in the parking area of that steak house, when two young men acted particularly stupidly. At no time, during or after that encounter, did I feel undergunned or outgunned, as I had been building proficiency to try “cowboy action” shooting, and had no doubts about my ability to hit accurately with an SA revolver. I do remember that the one thing that bothered me was that I almost used an unauthorized weapon, as PD rules specified that I could only use an approved firearm, with which I had fired an official qual, for defensive purposes, on or off the clock. SA revolvers were not on the list of approved carry guns, so, by definition, I was in violation of policy, though, by Texas law, legally OK to carry any handgun.
 
Rexster said:
There are “auto” shotguns. ;)

If you are comfortable with single-action revolver shooting, that is OK. I am quite comfortable shooting SAA-pattern single-action revolvers, too, though, at least in my hands, cocking DA revolvers is not nearly as efficient and expedient as cocking SA revolvers, and my SA shots with DA revolvers are not more accurate, so I would be very unlikely to cock a DA revolver. Several of my DA revolvers have spur-less hammers, and some of those are DA-only.

Once upon a time, my P229R duty pistol, and my usual secondary handgun, an SP101, were both taken-down, and covered with CLP, after a shooting session, when I realized it was almost time to meet a colleague at a steak house. Rather than take the time to open the safe, to get a different weapon, I decided to carry one handgun that was not in the safe, a U.S. Firearms Single Action revolving pistol. To make a long story short, I very nearly “presented” that SA sixgun, in the parking area of that steak house, when two young men acted particularly stupidly. At no time, during or after that encounter, did I feel undergunned or outgunned, as I had been building proficiency to try “cowboy action” shooting, and had no doubts about my ability to hit accurately with an SA revolver. I do remember that the one thing that bothered me was that I almost used an unauthorized weapon, as PD rules specified that I could only use an approved firearm, with which I had fired an official qual, for defensive purposes, on or off the clock. SA revolvers were not on the list of approved carry guns, so, by definition, I was in violation of policy, though, by Texas law, legally OK to carry any handgun.
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Touche on the shotgun.

I'm not saying it's ideal by any means but I think it's still doable in my circumstance.

I'm in a very rural area, needing more than 6 rounds means that 120% of the people in most social settings would need to turn hostile to need more rounds.

I'm sitting in a car, at 2am delivering newspapers for most of these. I'm worried about animals much much more. I'm currently carrying a 329pd for example
 
JCooperfan1911 said:
The FBI statistics have shown that the average civilian gunfight is over in 3 round or less,
Click to expand...
That is oft-repeated, but we have never seen it substantiated here.

And if it were true, well,

AVERAGES MEAN NOTHING.

JCooperfan1911 said:
the odds of more than 6 rounds ever being needed in a civilian defensive encounter are next door to zero.
Click to expand...
We see LEO defensive encounters involving six or more shots all the time. There is no reason to expect civilian defensive shootings to be any different.

JCooperfan1911 said:
Add the tremendous reliability, ease of use, safety, accuracy, and power of a single action revolver and you end up with an extremely effective carry gun
Click to expand...
Have you ever tried an SA revolver in any of the drills in realistic defensive shooting courses?
 
Kleanbore said:
That is oft-repeated, but we have never seen it substantiated here.

And if it were true, well,

AVERAGES MEAN NOTHING.

We see LEO defensive encounters involving six or more shots all the time. There is no reason to expect civilian defensive shootings to be any different.

Have you ever tried an SA revolver in any of the drills in realistic defensive shooting courses?
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I am not an LEO and do not interject myself into the positions they must. Yes, there IS a distinct difference in LEO vs civilian defensive encounters.

A .45 Long Colt flat nose will end anyone’s day. Six are rarely needed because once the first goblin falls in a slump vomiting blood from the 1/2” hole through his throat, his buddies are VERY rarely ever concerned with whatever it is made them be there in the first place, and turn tail. If not I’ve got 5 more and one shot per customer is all that is required with the big .45 slugs.

That is even considering the need to fire in the first place. The presentation of a pistol is usually enough to end the confrontation right now. Something like 90% of the time just the presence of the gun causes the felons to flee.

I am not a cop or a military commando. I live a quiet life and do everything I possibly can to avoid trouble, and don’t make it a habit to go to rough spots. I also practice very often with my Ruger Vaquero and can reload it quite effectively, Besides, a Smith model 37 is constantly in my pocket. But I carry my Vaquero often when out in the field and do not feel unarmed with it.

As mentioned above, the reliability is on another level from the plastic pistols and is even superior to the .45 Automatic. I can hit extremely well with the tuned trigger action. I trust it to go bang six times and have more faith in it than most guns.

There seems to be a cult of firepower in this country. The guys with beard and tight “punisher skull” T-shirts and the latest black plastic crap with a million round clip. They think if you don’t have the latest and greatest you are totally unarmed and anything less than a 105mm belt fed howitzer is a worthless pea shooter incapable of carrying one through.

This is not the way.

Marksman and shootists in this country got along with single and double action revolvers for decades. Men that spent time on the range and knew how to shoot. People now stay inside and play video games and digest Hollywood nonsense and feel that if you aren’t John Wick or the Terminator you can’t possibly fight back against an attacker.

Simply.

Not.

True.
 
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JCooperfan1911 said:
I am not an LEO and do not interject myself into the positions they must. Yes, there IS a distinct difference in LEO vs civilian defensive encounters.
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Your right, they usually have back up coming, and we dont. From the call, assuming it ever gets made, its about a 30-45 minute turn around here, if youre lucky, depending on where the Trooper is in the county. :thumbup:

The shooting part isnt likely to be very different, and maybe even better than most cops, if youve been practicing realistically and regulalry. Might be a lot different if you havent been. The number of people I see doing the former, is not anything near what the later is though.

The outcome for those with the high cap guns is likely going to be better though. Theyve got that buffer. :)
 
JCooperfan1911 said:
I am not an LEO and do not interject myself into the positions they must. Yes, there IS a distinct difference in LEO vs civilian defensive encounters.
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That distinction influences the likelihood of occurrence, but once it starts, both are by definition, and in fact, defensive in nature, and there is no reason to expect a difference.

JCooperfan1911 said:
If not I’ve got 5 more and one shot per customer is all that is required with the big .45 slugs.
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You are fooling yourself.

JCooperfan1911 said:
That is even considering the need to fire in the first place. The presentation of a pistol is usually enough to end the confrontation right now. Something like 90% of the time just the presence of the gun causes the felons to flee.
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Often true, but it is completely irrelevant.

JCooperfan1911 said:
I am not a cop or a military commando. I live a quiet life and do everything I possibly can to avoid trouble, and don’t make it a habit to go to rough spots.
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Good. That should reduce the likelihood of your getting into trouble.

It will not influence what happens when you do.

JCooperfan1911 said:
I can hit extremely well with the tuned trigger action.
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Again: how do you do in realistic defensive drills?

Think 3 or more shots into the area of a small pie plate in about a second at, say, 12 ft.

Expect your target to be moving at 15 feet per second.

Do you now any reputable defensive shooting instructors who would allow you to bring a single action revolver?
 
I really like my single actions and would not feel unarmed if that was all I had. But I wouldn't purposely pick one as my every day carry if I have my other choices like the pile of DA revolvers I own or the semi-autos I own. And I have shot double action for so long I forget my DA revolvers can be cocked and fired single action.

I like nostalgia as much as the next guy but I also like the idea of going home at the end of the day. And I stand a better chance of doing that if I am armed with a gun better suited to a gunfight in these times. But my number one best defense is keep my mouth shut, stay out of bars and stay out of bad areas if at all possible.
 
I don't know why so many of us compare our self defense shooting likelihood to that of a LEO. Unless of course some of you are LEOs, in which case may God bless you and keep you safe.
That being said, a civilian should do his best to avoid an armed conflict whereas a LEO by the nature of their profession is more likely to need to employ their weapon.
Once the shooting starts we are only able to do our best with the weapon we have weather you are a LEO and carrying a Glock or a Forestry manager carrying a Blackhawk.
Train with the weapon of your choice to the maximum extent possible for the maximum likelihood of a happy ending.
JMHO.
 
ontarget said:
I don't know why so many of us compare our self defense shooting likelihood to that of a LEO. Unless of course some of you are LEOs, in which case may God bless you and keep you safe.
That being said, a civilian should do his best to avoid an armed conflict whereas a LEO by the nature of their profession is more likely to need to employ their weapon.
Once the shooting starts we are only able to do our best with the weapon we have weather you are a LEO and carrying a Glock or a Forestry manager carrying a Blackhawk.
Train with the weapon of your choice to the maximum extent possible for the maximum likelihood of a happy ending.
JMHO.
Click to expand...

Most rational post.
 
JCooperfan1911 said:
Most rational post.
Click to expand...
If you are rational about it. I question the number of people who really are.

As Kleanbore keeps asking, how often do you run realistic drills in practice with what you carry, and from how you carry it?

This isn't about cops vs civilian encounters, it's about the encounter you get, no matter what that might be, and your ability to deal with it, with what you have. If you think a SA revolver fits that bill, more power to you. If it were all I had, I'd be glad I had it, but I wouldn't be happy, it was all I had.

If it is your choice, I'd highly suggest you take a course and/or shoot a couple of matches with it, and then see what you think. Im betting you have a different outlook on things on the backside, than you did going in.

Assuming you're being rational about it. :)
 
ontarget said:
I don't know why so many of us compare our self defense shooting likelihood to that of a LEO.
Click to expand...
Because

ontarget said:
Once the shooting starts we are only able to do our best with the weapon we have weather you are a LEO and carrying a Glock or a Forestry manager carrying a Blackhawk.
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I.O.W., it's the same thing.

ontarget said:
...a civilian should do his best to avoid an armed conflict whereas a LEO by the nature of their profession is more likely to need to employ their weapon.
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True.

But that only has meaning before the fact.
 
I was a LEO and spent my last 6 years before retiring as the chief firearms instructor for my department (400 armed personnel). After retiring I ran my own firearms training business for 10 years. When it came to the fundamentals of drawing and engaging realistic targets at realistic distances...I taught exactly the same things.

As for the idea the average encounter is over in 3 shots, all that means is if there were two shootings and one took 1 round and the other one took 6, the average was 3. Not really a useful number when the smelly brown stuff hits the air circulation device.

Dave
 
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