Mystique And Legend of The .45 Colt

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One thing to remember about the .45 Colt
with the old balloon head casings (no extractor
groove) was that it could not be used in a Winchester 73,
which among its chamberings were the exceedingly
popular .44-40 and then the .38-40. The .45 Colt
has been chambered in more recent lever guns since
it now has an extractor groove.
 
In Mike's defense, I'm technically a #2 but I rarely use it. My first and last name are all that's on any of my correspondence, the "II" rarely makes an appearance and the old man even lives in the same county.

If you click on the link and read the article, Mike specifically says:

"Therefore he subcontracted production to Eli Whitney of cotton gin fame."

The Eli Whitney of cotton gin fame was the Senior, who died in 1825, about 20 years before Colt partnered with Eli Whitney II to produce the Walker Colts. Eli Whitney Sr was a fine mechanic and inventor in his own right, in addition to inventing the cotton gin he was an early champion of interchangeable parts in firearms. I recall reading an account of a meeting Whitney had with a bunch of Revolutionary Army officers to demonstrate the virtue of interchangeable parts. He had the parts laid out for several muskets, and he invited the officers to assemble the muskets, randomly picking parts from the pile of parts, to demonstrate that hand fitting was not needed to assemble firearms with interchangeable parts. The fact was, Whitney was up all night before the meeting, filing down parts so they would be truly interchangeable and could be assembled into muskets without hand fitting. After he won a contract, Whitney was very successful at introducing truly interchangeable parts in his factory.

As I said earlier, I have been reading books and magazine articles written by Mike Venturino for many years. His books were what got me on the path to loading cartridges, including 45 Colt, with Black Powder. I am really surprised that Mike made that small error, I'm sure he knew better. Maybe a typo, or a slip by an editor.
 
One thing to remember about the .45 Colt
with the old balloon head casings (no extractor
groove) was that it could not be used in a Winchester 73,
which among its chamberings were the exceedingly
popular .44-40 and then the .38-40. The .45 Colt
has been chambered in more recent lever guns since
it now has an extractor groove.

I think I covered all that earlier with my photo of the old 45 Colt cartridges.

It is not the so called Extractor Groove, it is the diameter of the rim that allows a rifle extractor to grab the rim of a cartridge so it can be extracted.

Introduced at the same time as the 45 Colt cartridge, in 1873, the early 44-40 rounds simply had a larger diameter rim than the old 45 Colt cartridges.

Here are a few old 44-40 rounds from my cartridge collection. They do not have an 'Extractor Groove'. They are simply large enough in diameter that a rifle extractor can grab the rims.

pmzK6VEHj.jpg




Here are some old 38-40 rounds. Again, no extractor groove. The rims are simply large enough in diameter to allow a rifle extractor to get a good grip on the rim.

pnf9URudj.jpg




SAAMI spec for 45 Colt cartridge rim diameters has been .512 for a long time. With a .512 diameter rim, a rifle extractor will have plenty to grab onto without an Extractor Groove. SAAMI Spec for 44-40 and 38-40 rim diameters has been .520 for a long time. Again, plenty for a rifle extractor to grab onto without an 'Extractor Groove'. Trust me on this, I have several old Winchesters chambered for both 44-40 and 38-40. No, I have not fired any of these old rounds through them but I have run them through the actions, and the extractors grab the rims, without extractor grooves, just fine.

In fact, the so called 'Extractor Groove' on modern cartridge cases such as 45 Colt is not an extractor groove at all. It is an artifact of the process of making the brass. Before the rim is turned, a cut is made, the so called Extractor Groove. The purpose is to eliminate a radius at the base of the rim.
 
I've been reading some, on the .45 Colt; and it occurred to me- a lot of this cartridge's capability is... for lack of better terms... shrouded in mystery and folklore. The bit about it knocking an Indian war pony off it's feet at 100yds, etc, etc. So... is there any concrete, historical evidence to back this legend up ?

Not questioning it's capability as a stopper of man or beast, just questioning the legends surrounding it.

I think it's same-same with the lore of the .44SPC. Not that they aren't good, capable cartridges in their own right, but they are not All That and a bag of chips.
 
As Driftwood so well points out, that groove at the base of cartridges is not an "extractor groove" but rather a manufacturing expedient. I believe it may have been originally suggested as a stress relief cut as well.

Bob Wright
 
I get the point being made but if ya wanna run circles around a `69 Camaro SS396, you might need a better example than an `03 Mustang GT. :p

It wasnt just a GT... I had 32 valves. Maybe the 396 wasnt the best comparison lol! But the 4.6DOHC would push it 0-60 in about 5.5 seconds. Very very few muscle cars from 67-73 could do that. And none of em averaged 22 mpg! Nor do I know many that would do 150mph...
 
I've been reading some, on the .45 Colt; and it occurred to me- a lot of this cartridge's capability is... for lack of better terms... shrouded in mystery and folklore. The bit about it knocking an Indian war pony off it's feet at 100yds, etc, etc. So... is there any concrete, historical evidence to back this legend up ?

Not questioning it's capability as a stopper of man or beast, just questioning the legends surrounding it.


I believe the requirement was to unhorse the rider BUT I have been unable to find the test requirements for the 1872(?) Army Trials that lead to the adoption of the 45 caliber revolver. Perhaps someone with better search abilities can find the reports.


Kevin
 
I believe the requirement was to unhorse the rider BUT I have been unable to find the test requirements for the 1872(?) Army Trials that lead to the adoption of the 45 caliber revolver. Perhaps someone with better search abilities can find the reports.

Kevin
You are assuming that such documents ever existed.

I think it likely that the Army selected what is today referred to as a Commercial Off The Shelf (COTS) item--the only one on the market in this country--after buying and trying a number of them in the field

Previously, they had used the 1858 Remington in .44 and the 1860 Colt.

They had opted for .44 revolvers over .36 caliber models, and it is generally thought that the .44 was chosen because of its greater effectiveness against horses.
 
The Thompson LaGarde Report would not be convincing by present standards.

How I wish that were true. But 2020 is proof there are no standards in the realm of swaying opinion. Heck, even the sciences are a hollow shell of what they were.

Thank goodness individuals are still carrying the torch, like the CEO of BioNTech.
 
I think it likely that the Army selected what is today referred to as a Commercial Off The Shelf (COTS) item--the only one on the market in this country--after buying and trying a number of them in the field

There was no standard, off the shelf cartridge for 45 Colt when it was developed in 1873. The Army worked hand in hand with Colt to develop the cartridge. The first ones were manufactured at the Government owned Frankford Arsenal. Interestingly enough, if you read Kopec's A Study of the Colt Single Action Army Revolver, probably the most authoritative work about the SAA, he mentions the first SAA sent to the Army for testing was chambered for the 44 S&W Russian cartridge. This one was replaced by one chambered for the 44 S&W American cartridge because that was the cartridge the S&W American Top Break revolvers already in inventory fired.

The Frankford Arsenal had production problems supplying a quantity of the first iteration of 45 Colt cartridges to the Army. The first contract for the revolver was signed on July 23, 1873. Before the Army could begin accepting the guns, they had to be inspected by a government inspector at Colt, and they had to be proof fired. On September 13, 1873 a letter was sent to the Frankford Arsenal requesting 50,000 cartridges be sent to Colt's for testing. The Arsenal had difficulty filling the order for cartridges, mostly because they could not get their hands on much copper. Do not forget, the first 45 Colt cartridges were the copper cased, Benet Primed rounds. I pictured one in post #30.

It was not until October 25 that the Arsenal was able to ship 5,000 cartridges to Colt, which were not enough to proof test all the revolvers on hand. The remaining 45,000 cartridges were shipped shortly afterward, Kopec does not give a date for that.

Anyway, there were no off the shelf cartridges available for the Army trials, the cartridge was being developed at the same time the revolver was being developed. These were the copper cased, Benet primed rounds that held 40 grains of powder under a 255 grain bullet.

The powder charge was reduced shortly, not just because of excessive recoil, but because the first Single Action Army revolvers had iron, not steel, frames and cylinders. Some of the cylinders were blowing up with the 40 grain loads.

I don't have any of the original 40 grain loads in my cartridge collection, but I do have this box of 30 grain loads that were made in the Frankford Arsenal in 1874.

plpYHejkj.jpg




This photo shows how the Benet primed rounds looked like rim fire cartridges on the bottom. A couple of rounds from the box on the right along with one of my modern 45 Colt reloads for comparison.

pnk54uT9j.jpg


P.S. Kopec does not mention anything about shooting horses, I have looked.
 
I could believe that actually happened. Here's why.....
My daughter shot her first deer in the hind quarter broadside, with a 7.62x39.
That deer was DRT! I mean that thing dropped like a brain shot from a 50 BMG.
Never even twitched after it fell.

Was it because of the energy transferred into it by a mere x39 or disruption of the CNS? Who knows, but it happened.

Could a 45 Colt knock down a horse at 100 yards? Why not?

Like any other story, normal events are boring. But the exceptional, or rarer events are very entertaining. Nobody wants to hear about normal, everyday, life. Any movie about usual, predictable events is a bomb.

Under normal circumstances, could you regularly knock down, or DRT a horse, at 100 yards ? No.(and boring) But in a few exceptional cases, might not a 45 Colt disable a horse, at that range? Well, that's a different, and interesting story.
 
Momentary interruption of brain function on my part.

I have read a lot about FA's part in the development of the .45. I did not remember it.

What I meant to say was that I think the Model P was a probably a design proposed by Colt without a stated Army specification. However, it does appear that it was originally intended for Army use, and that civilian versions came later.

The Kopec book is out of my price range.
 
From what I've read, the Army was very specific about what they did not like about the Open Top and what they wanted out of its successor. Most importantly, a top strap and a .45 caliber inside lubed centerfire cartridge. William Mason designed the SAA specifically for the Army.
 
Howdy Again

Yes, the Kopec book is spendy. I was lucky enough to find a used version a few years ago for a good price. It is a big, fat book, 600 pages long, and I have not read every page. I pick through the table of contents and the index to find what I want to know.

The design of the Colt Single Action Army was an evolutionary advance from the earlier Colt cap & ball revolvers and cartridge conversion revolvers.

Colt was prevented from building any cartridge revolvers by the Rollin White patent of about 1855 if I remember correctly. White had patented the idea of boring the chambers of a cylinder completely through the cylinder, so it could be loaded with metallic cartridges from the rear. White was a former Colt employee, which makes an interesting story for another time. S&W approached White and proposed buying the rights to his patent. White would not sell, but made S&W the sole licensee of his patent, making them the only US company that could legally make cartridge revolvers without being sued. So Colt was left making C&B revolvers all through the Civil War until the White patent expired.

Colt made a number of Cartridge Conversion revolvers during this period, principally the Thuer conversion, the Richards Conversion, and the Richards-Mason conversion. The Thuer conversion was an attempt to get around the White patent, but it used an unusual reverse tapered cartridge and was not financially successful. The Richards Conversion was financially successful, using some inventoried parts from the cap & ball revolvers and some newly manufactured parts. It fired a centerfire 44 caliber cartridge called the 44 Colt. The principal buyer of the Richards Conversion was the Army. The Richards-Mason Conversion simplified some of the parts of the earlier Richards Conversion and they too were financially successful. The Colt Model 1871-1872 Open Top revolver is often considered a cartridge conversion revolver, but in fact it was designed from the ground up to fire cartridges. It fired a rimfire 44 caliber cartridge very similar to the 44 Henry rimfire cartridge. The Open Top had been designed by William Mason, who had also made most of the changes that resulted in the Richards-Mason Conversion. Except for a few internal parts, all of the parts of the Open Top were of new design and very few parts were interchangeable with cap & ball or cartridge conversion parts.

The patents for the Open Top were awarded in 1871 and 1872, but Mason was probably working on it earlier than that. The White patent had expired in 1869, so the market was wide open for a large caliber cartridge revolver, unlike the small Tip Up rimfire cartridge revolvers S&W had been producing. The largest Tip Ups only fired a 32 rimfire cartridge. S&W was ready in 1869 with a much larger revolver, but that too is another story.

Mason was working on the design of the Open Top concurrently with developing the Richards-Mason cartridge conversion revolver. Among other improvements it featured a hinged loading gate and an improved ejector assembly. Colt submitted the Open Top to the Army for consideration as a new cartridge revolver design, but the army rejected it. One reference of mine states the Army had decided on a solid frame revolver as early as 1868, but Colt submitted the Open Top anyway, and it was quickly rejected.

Mason had also been working on what we now know as the Single Action Army early in 1872. It was often referred to as the 'Strap Pistol' by both the Army and Colt, to differentiate it from the 'strapless' (my term) Open Top. The Army stated they wanted a solid frame revolver, with a threaded barrel screwed into the frame. Colt sent the first Strap Pistol to the Army in November of 1872. The Army tested it in comparison with the Smith and Wesson American Model that was already in inventory, the Army had bought 1000 of them around 1871 if memory serves. The first Strap Pistol that Colt sent to the Army was chambered for the 44 Russian cartridge, because it was felt to be more accurate than the earlier 44 S&W American cartridge. However since the Army's American Models were all chambered for the S&W American cartridge, this first revolver was sent back to Colt to be fitted with a cylinder chambered for the 44 S&W American cartridge.

My point is that there were several variations of the SAA that Colt sent to the Army for testing, each variation being suggested by either Colt, or the Army, or both.

For reference, here is a photo of an Open Top.


poXGX7atj.jpg




Here is a 2nd Gen Colt Single Action Army.

pm8tThX7j.jpg
 
Howdy Again...S&W approached White and proposed buying the rights to his patent. White would not sell, but made S&W the sole licensee of his patent, making them the only US company that could legally make cartridge revolvers without being sued...
The license was written in such a way the while S&W got to use the patent, White got to defend it against any and all infringements. And S&W was able to protect the patents against all comers with White’s attorneys! It nearly bankrupt him.

S&W was so protective of the patent they refused to grant permission to the Federal Government to use it. U S Grant held that against the company until he he day he died as he felt it prolonged the ACW and resulted in more deaths for both sides.
Kevin
 
Driftwood, you just solved a mystery for me!! I recently traded for a near new Uberti Cattleman with a 7 1/2" barrel. I was quite impressed by the quality and finish of the gun. I had been looking for one for a long time. I have 450 rounds of factory loaded 45 Colt ammo that was given to me. The boxes are marked "COWBOY" When I fired one I was rather surprised at how stout it was.

Now I know why. Thanks !!!

I had the same experience. In fact, my thought was “if these are the pipsqueak mousefart cowboy loads that everyone ridicules on the Internet, I think I want nothing to do with the .45 Colt, because these weren’t exactly pleasant after the 47th round, and anything hotter would be positively not fun!”
 
"The license was written in such a way the while S&W got to use the patent, White got to defend it against any and all infringements. And S&W was able to protect the patents against all comers with White’s attorneys! It nearly bankrupt him.

S&W was so protective of the patent they refused to grant permission to the Federal Government to use it. U S Grant held that against the company until he he day he died as he felt it prolonged the ACW and resulted in more deaths for both sides.
Kevin"

You are correct. The way the licensing agreement was written, White was paid a royalty of $.25 for every revolver that S&W made, and he was saddled with the responsibility of policing the patent.

As a little bit of historical background, when Daniel Wesson was a young man he was apprenticed to his brother Edwin, who was manufacturing high quality target rifles. Daniel eventually wound up pretty much running the entire operation while his brother was out drumming up new business. Edwin wanted to expand his business and needed investors to provide him with the money to expand his operations. He got an infusion of cash from several investors, and started spending it to improve his business, until he dropped dead one day. The investors wanted their money back and took over the shop, selling everything in it. Daniel was left high and dry, and even his personal tools were sold.

This rude awakening to the business world caused him to be very crafty in later life when writing contracts. No one forced White to sign the contract, in fact he could have sold the rights to his patent outright and walked away with a bundle of cash. Instead, he signed the contract which plainly spelled out his responsibility to police the patent against patent infringements.

I do know that for a while White set up the Rollin White Arms Company in Lowell Massachusetts manufacturing revolvers which he then sold to S&W because they did not have the manufacturing capacity to keep up with the demand. White liquidated the company in 1864 and the assets were purchased by the Lowell Arms Company, which then started making revolvers which directly infringed on White's patent. White sued them to cease operations but about 7500 revolvers had already been manufactured.

When the White patent expired in 1869, White applied for a patent extension, which was denied. In 1870 White appealed to Congress that he had not been fairly compensated for his patent. He claimed he had only made $71,000 while S&W had made a million dollars. He claimed he had spent most of his money on lawyers policing patent infringements. He had in fact assigned the royalty to his wife, and had only spent $17,000 on legal costs. Congress passed a bill granting White a new hearing on his patent extension, but President Grant vetoed it on the advice of Chief of Ordnance Alexander Dyer, who was angry over White's activities for S&W in enforcing his patent, which prevented the Union Army from buying large caliber cartridge revolvers during the Civil War.

I think the best we can say about Rollin White was he had a couple of good ideas about firearms, but he was not a very good business man.
 
"The license was written in such a way the while S&W got to use the patent, White got to defend it against any and all infringements. And S&W was able to protect the patents against all comers with White’s attorneys! It nearly bankrupt him.

S&W was so protective of the patent they refused to grant permission to the Federal Government to use it. U S Grant held that against the company until he he day he died as he felt it prolonged the ACW and resulted in more deaths for both sides.
Kevin"

You are correct. The way the licensing agreement was written, White was paid a royalty of $.25 for every revolver that S&W made, and he was saddled with the responsibility of policing the patent.

As a little bit of historical background, when Daniel Wesson was a young man he was apprenticed to his brother Edwin, who was manufacturing high quality target rifles. Daniel eventually wound up pretty much running the entire operation while his brother was out drumming up new business. Edwin wanted to expand his business and needed investors to provide him with the money to expand his operations. He got an infusion of cash from several investors, and started spending it to improve his business, until he dropped dead one day. The investors wanted their money back and took over the shop, selling everything in it. Daniel was left high and dry, and even his personal tools were sold.

This rude awakening to the business world caused him to be very crafty in later life when writing contracts. No one forced White to sign the contract, in fact he could have sold the rights to his patent outright and walked away with a bundle of cash. Instead, he signed the contract which plainly spelled out his responsibility to police the patent against patent infringements.

I do know that for a while White set up the Rollin White Arms Company in Lowell Massachusetts manufacturing revolvers which he then sold to S&W because they did not have the manufacturing capacity to keep up with the demand. White liquidated the company in 1864 and the assets were purchased by the Lowell Arms Company, which then started making revolvers which directly infringed on White's patent. White sued them to cease operations but about 7500 revolvers had already been manufactured.

When the White patent expired in 1869, White applied for a patent extension, which was denied. In 1870 White appealed to Congress that he had not been fairly compensated for his patent. He claimed he had only made $71,000 while S&W had made a million dollars. He claimed he had spent most of his money on lawyers policing patent infringements. He had in fact assigned the royalty to his wife, and had only spent $17,000 on legal costs. Congress passed a bill granting White a new hearing on his patent extension, but President Grant vetoed it on the advice of Chief of Ordnance Alexander Dyer, who was angry over White's activities for S&W in enforcing his patent, which prevented the Union Army from buying large caliber cartridge revolvers during the Civil War.

I think the best we can say about Rollin White was he had a couple of good ideas about firearms, but he was not a very good business man.

$54,000 (net) was a fortune in 1870, so it’s hard to feel too sorry for the man. This is the first reference I’ve seen to an actual dollar amount. Most potted firearms histories just mention the annoying patent that delayed Colt from making cartridge revolvers for a decade and leave it at that. Undoubtedly, though, he could have made even more if he played his cards right. It was a great idea, at the right time, and he had the patent, along with a large war.
 
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