Lets have an honest discussion about the majority of gun owners.

bdickens said:

I think that's a good thing.

Fewer bad habits to overcome.

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I agree but that's not the subject of this thread!

Miami_JBT said:

With the modernization of warfare and the modernization of the armed forces following the Dick Act of 1903. The militia system as a whole has been fully supplanted and replaced with the modern police force.

Look at the history of the NRA and CMP. The NRA was originally a sports shooting organization designed by former Union Officers that saw how pitiful Union Recruits were with firearms during the war. The CMP was similar with Roosevelt's experience during the Span-Am War. The goal of both organizations was to improve the basic skills of the average American.

The regulated militia in centuries past was the main body that the political system called upon to restore law and order. Prior to the advent of the modern police force, it was the militia that was called upon to restore order when Riots happened. It was the militia that backed up the local town marshal or sheriff. But as tine progressed after the Civil War, the militia units became informal drinking clubs and boys organizations for the socially connected. This all came to a head during the Span-Am....

All the while, your average American was willfully unable to actually perform maritally.

So professional standing organizations are formed both within the military and outside of it with police agencies.

And with that... the trend further continued along due to urbanization that most people are inadequately trained and knowledgeable in handling firearms properly.

Anyways....

The intent of the 2nd Amendment was simple. Each person has the right and civic duty to defend hearth and home from domestic troubles like thieves and also deal with more serious matters like despotism both at home and abroad.

The question is are they properly educated in doing so? Both physically with a firearm and in terms of thd civic lessons regarding proper function of government and inalienable rights?

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Good points to ponder!

For loads of information about the origins of the 2A! Examines every word and provides its meaning. Just what we need when standing our ground when discussing the 2A with the "anti's"!

Wood, steel, polymer and aluminum...theyre guns.

Tools.

Doesnt matter what you shoot, just shoot it well.

Fwiw i dont discuss stuff w antis.

The people off to the side might be your audience, but it aint worth getting into it with those that cannot think

JJFitch said:

For loads of information about the origins of the 2A! Examines every word and provides its meaning. Just what we need when standing our ground when discussing the 2A with the "anti's"!

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It might convince some fence sitters, but you are making the mistake assuming anti's will listen to reason and evaluate it objectively. There are none so blind than those who will not see, nor none so deaf as those who will not hear.

Most gun owners are not gun enthusiast.
Many with concealed carry are not consistent about carrying. (Not counting work restriction.) They carry when they think they need to.
Of those that carry consistently, many will settle for "better than nothing" when they could carry something better.
Very few are willing (when able) to consistently carry something "decent" regardless of location, time of day, anticipated threat.

I see the OP as nothing more than an attempt by the author to place themselves atop a hierarchy of gun owners they see as lesser.

I honestly don't know what a typical gun owner is. Everyone perceives things differently. I tend to consider myself a lightweight compared to most others here though I believe I probably own more than most. What people consider a threat changes, interests change. When I first started buying guns I wanted to hunt. Then I got interested in self defense, handguns. Then I decided I wanted an AR because certain people didn't want me to have one. Most of what I have is not top tier. I don't own a plate carrier or have optics on my handguns but my stuff does work & I know how to use it.

As for the politics of people buying arms. Yes, antifa & the militant left are arming up. I doubt there is any hope of us influencing them. For others realizing that they might need a firearm & that the police might not be capable of protecting them could be an epiphany of sorts. It might not help us but I doubt it will hurt us.

Not sure what prompted all this philosophical thinking and pontificating, but I guess most of us have been pondering the general state of things since the election.

The OP is on point with a couple of his observations (but nothing really new or earthshaking) about the "average" American gun-owner, but is guilty of a bit of projection in some other aspects. For example, I do not agree with this:

Miami_JBT said:

The average American gun owner today buys and owns a gun as a magic talisman with the belief that it wards away the energy of bad people and endows the holders with super magical nearly fantastical cosmic powers.

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I happen to know a great many "average American gun owners, and haven't come across any that express, or behave in a way, that indicates they possess this sort of belief. We, the enlightened, are probably guilty of believing that we are far more knowing and pragmatic about gun ownership, but the fact remains, the average American gun owner is probably pretty pragmatic about his/her reason for owning a gun and doesn't harbor the illusion the gun endows them with any magical power. The average American gun owner, however, is probably fairly ignorant of how the gun functions, and unless he/she has availed him/herself of training, no doubt simply thinks of the gun as something to be broken out in case of a dire emergency, but really doesn't believe anything bad will ever happen to them.
My comments in red

Miami_JBT said:

Your average gun owner has no understanding of tactics, training, the laws, safety, etc... Your average gun owner is pretty much a safety hazard both physically and legally speaking. No, the average gun owner is just an average person that probably rarely touches his/her gun(s). They are no more a "safety hazard" than any other citizen. Arfcom and other forums in the grand scheme of things are a very small groups of people. Dunno, don't care; haven't been there for a long while, not gonna trash the place, but IME there's little reasoned or civil discourse to be had there. Most are very passionate about the 2nd Amendment and guns themselves. One would hope those who participate in firearms discussion forums are...

Your average American gun owner is about as politically active as a snail in a bowl of salt. What's your point here? The average AMERICAN CITIZEN is not politically active.They aren't. You're lucky if they vote. But there is a huge portion of gun owners that do vote. And those that do vote, guns aren't an issue for them. Let's just disagree to disagree here. Most gun owners I know (for whom guns are important) are single-issue voters.

They don't compete, they don't train, they don't get politically active, etc....Yeah, I think we've flogged that dead equine enough during the lifetime of this forum.

Gun ownership does not automatically equal 2nd Amendment Activism and Enthusiasm. Why would anybody think that it does? Plenty of gun owners are anti-gun or indifferent. Not to be flippant, but you're just now figuring this out?That's your average gun owner.

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As silicosys4 said above, it rather appears that the OP is being more than a little condescending in his view of the average American gun-owner. There's no rank structure involved in gun ownership, no hierarchy, and as a famous guy once said, "We must all hang together, or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately." Let's not hold ourselves up as elite, let's just try to get others up to our level of understanding.

Miami_JBT said:

The Communists butchered my family in Cuba.... anyways.

I recall back in the late 90s and early 00s being the only guy at the range with a AR-15 and 30rd mags. I was looked at with vitriol and curiosity at the same time by Boomers. It was weird.

Now I show up with my milsurpls and fudd guns and the Millennials and Gen Z Kids look at me with the same vitriol and curiosity that the Boomers gave me. But it is because I have something with a wood stock and blued steel.

The grabbers are playing a generational game and looking at having time on their side.

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So what have you done to educate/train these folks? Give them a demo on room clearing? Show them how to do remedial action on an AR or a Glock? Show them how to apply a tourniquet? How about show them what a good sight picture looks like? Maybe you've done all that and I just missed it in your post. Crawl, Walk, Run...

Miami_JBT said:

All the while, your average American was willfully unable to actually perform maritally.

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There's a little blue pill for that (I'm told).

Miami_JBT said:

Now I show up with my milsurpls and fudd guns and the Millennials and Gen Z Kids look at me with the same vitriol and curiosity that the Boomers gave me. But it is because I have something with a wood stock and blued steel.

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C'mon, now - I find that hard to believe. I take blued steel and walnut to the range, and the younger guys are clamoring all around me wanting to shoot my "old school" revolvers and lever actions. I just don't see this.

Miami_JBT said:

The grabbers are playing a generational game and looking at having time on their side.

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Dude, we've been talking about the state of public education in this country for years now in the forums. It's all about the nanny state indoctrination; it wasn't started as a "generational game" (whatever that it) because the politicians weren't playing the long game and worried about their legacies -- it has simply been about control, here and now.

taliv said:

i'm fully aware of the "arming the enemy" viewpoint, where many do not want all the suburban karens and antifa blm etc to buy guns. I have a somewhat nuanced view.

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Yeah; once people have guns, they tend to want to keep them. Not a bad thing for us.

Based on observation over the years, the big change in gun owner mentality happened legislatively in 1968. Prior to that, owning or not was NOT a big deal in most minds. Subsequent events magnified the change to 2A- and self protection- based reasons for if, which, and how many guns to own.

Miami_JBT said:

The average American gun owner today buys and owns a gun as a magic talisman with the belief that it wards away the energy of bad people and endows the holders with super magical nearly fantastical cosmic powers.

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This statement is so judgemental and condescending that I am challenged to be objective in assessing the rest of the OPs manifesto.

Around my parts every person I know that's a gun owner is an enthusiast or close to it. When I say enthusiast I mean as follows:
Owns at least 2 AR pattern rifles
EDC Glocks or 1911s
Hunts just about every day (necessary predator and hog control)
Are staunch conservatives
Have proper firearms training

I guess deep red Texas is different from the rest of the United States.

Hog huntin Harry said:

I guess deep red Texas is different from the rest of the United States.

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I grew up in Austin and the attitudes there are similar to what I see now, living in northern Virginia. It's hard to generalize on a statewide basis.

Old Dog said:

It's all about the nanny state indoctrination; it wasn't started as a "generational game" (whatever that it) because the politicians weren't playing the long game and worried about their legacies -- it has simply been about control, here and now.

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This is were we disagree; there was a systematic takeover of the American education system that started no later than Wilson's time in the White House, and probably before that. At first it was "progressives", like Wilson, whose hubris, instilled at Yale or Harvard, caused them to believe the average American was a total idiot, whose life needed to be managed from cradle to grave. It became a surety once they got their hooks in the school systems and the PTAs.

It absolutely was started as a generational effort by the progressives. Eventually they were infiltrated by globalists and communists. (Two arms of the same effort. Globalists are the financial/legislative arm of International Communism.)
By the 70's, when I was in Jr. High and starting High school, I had learned to shut up and write out or repeat the Party line and not let them know my true beliefs or feelings. It served me well when I had to fill out 'questionaires' in the Army asking questions like " Would you fire on American citizens if an American Officer ordered you to?" , "Would you fire on American citizens if ordered to by a NATO officer?" and "Would you fire on American Citizens if ordered to by a UN officer?" . They were reworded and asked numerous times, mixed in with some more benign questions. It was career suicide to answer "no" to any of the above questions, and for a one-termer, it meant crap duties and possible reposting. Soldiers answering no were 'counseled' then allowed to retake the 'questionaire'. It was evident they were threatened with something that not only changed their minds, but caused them not to talk about the experience either.

I'll rephrase your statement- it has always been about control; achieving it completely at some point, but consolidating it until then, in order to have control over all from cradle to grave.

See my sig line below; the second one is their goal.

Hog huntin Harry said:

Around my parts every person I know that's a gun owner is an enthusiast or close to it. When I say enthusiast I mean as follows:
Owns at least 2 AR pattern rifles
EDC Glocks or 1911s
Hunts just about every day (necessary predator and hog control)
Are staunch conservatives
Have proper firearms training

I guess deep red Texas is different from the rest of the United States.

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Not every part of Texas is deep Red; there are some VERY deep BLUE parts as well; one or two more election cycles and the corruptness of the Left will have taken over.

entropy said:

This is were we disagree; there was a systematic takeover of the American education system that started no later than Wilson's time in the White House, and probably before that. At first it was "progressives", like Wilson, whose hubris, instilled at Yale or Harvard, caused them to believe the average American was a total idiot, whose life needed to be managed from cradle to grave. It became a surety once they got their hooks in the school systems and the PTAs.

It absolutely was started as a generational effort by the progressives. Eventually they were infiltrated by globalists and communists.

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No, it wasn't a "takeover." Many of the ideas were good, and did much to erase the notions that only the wealthy and privileged obtained higher education, while the middle and lower class either learned a trade or became laborers. The '50s came along bringing a new cultural conservatism and progressive education was widely repudiated and fell apart as a movement. Of course, later, the soccer moms discovered Montessori schools, the '70s happened, and we swung back the other way.

I feel as though you are confusing progressivism as a philosophy of education with the progressive movement in American politics. Originally, progressivism in education meant that nature is viewed as ever-changing, meaning learning and knowledge has to be continually redefined, rediscovered. As most know, progressive education views the learner as a problem solver who will naturally develop by only questioning what areas of he/she are interested in -- As a philosophy of education, the progressive believes no knowledge is privileged over another, and the most valuable knowledge is the knowledge that the learner desires to know. At the time of this movement, this was a pretty radical view, obviously, but it differs widely from what we consider the influence of the "progressive" politicians on our educational systems. The original progressive educators like Dewey and Counts believed that democracy means active participation by all citizens in social, political and economic decisions that will affect their lives.

This is NOT what the new progressive political movement wants for out educational system. They do not want to raise citizens capable of independent and critical thinking. It's brain-washing, political indoctrination, plain and simple. Have you looked at your children's school text books, particularly history, social studies, government lately? Saying that the progressives are playing a long game is a lie. It is about control now; our politicians these days have no care about the legacy they leave -- they're after their fame and fortune now, and million-dollar speaking engagements or seven-figure "consulting" when they leave office.

Do not give the progressive politicians this much credit. Rather, assign blame to three generations of parents, asleep and the switch and totally disengaged from their children's education.

What a mess!

Closed

George P said:

Not every part of Texas is deep Red; there are some VERY deep BLUE parts as well; one or two more election cycles and the corruptness of the Left will have taken over.

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It turned out that gun control did not play well among the Tejanos of South Texas, and that's one reason why the Democrats got a drubbing in the state. (They thought they had the Latino vote in the bag.)

More broadly, there are some serious reassessments going on among Democrats in the wake of this election. Centrist Reps. Elissa Slotkin (D-MI) and Abigail Spanberger (D-VA), for example, read their colleagues the riot act on the day after. The message is that the party cannot win if it lurches too far to the left.