No Love for 4064/4895 in 30-30?

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D.B. Cooper

D.B. Cooper

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So I just read through Waterboy's "New To 30-30 win" thread, and I have to ask, why no love for IMR 4064 and 4895? Only one person in that thread mentioned they use 4064. Looking in my Lyman's manual at 170 grn projectiles, I only see 4064 and 4895 listed for the jacketed soft point, but not listed for the cast lead projectile. Why is that? (And, BTW, the powder charge min and max for those two powders are identical with only very slight differences in MV.)

I've got a box of 168 grn RN cast lead projectiles to load for 30-30, but I only have access to 4064 and 4895. I thought those were both versatile rifle powders, 4895 especially. Looking at a burn rate chart, I don't have anything that is remotely close to the more oft cited (in the other thread) 3031or the oft cited (in the Lyman manuals) of 3031, 4227, 748, etc. (I'm working from both an 80s 47th ed as well as more recent 49th 3ed.)

So I'm wondering do I just apply the load data for the jacketed projectile to my cast lead projectiles and go with it, or what? (It's highly unlikely that I will be able to procure enough, or even any, of the other powders in the next several years-that ship has sailed.) It seems odd that those powders are omitted from a nearly identical weight projectile.
 
bearleft said:
Might be too fast for lead, little blurb here,
https://www.marlinowners.com/threads/imr-4064-powder-more-versatile-than-h4895.64756/#post-727482
I just bought a 336 in 30-30, I'm going to give Varget a go with 170 round nose Partitions.
Click to expand...

4227 is faster than 4895, significantly so, as is 3130, both of which are listed for a lead projectile.

And to be clear, I did find load data for 4064/4895...on line. Just trying to find out why it seems to be undesirable for 30-30 and what kind of results will I get with it. (Because, ultimately, I have no choice.)
 
I think bearleft meant those slower powders might launch that lead too fast.

The slower the powder, the more velocity it is likely to generate. The .30-30 has some things going for it where faster powders like IMR4198 and IMR3031 make more sense, including small case volume (say, compared to the .308, another .30 cartridge that works in the 150grn - 170grn bullet range, typically, but at much higher velocity, comparatively.) .30-30 bullets are also designed to perform at lower velocity, drive it too fast and it may destruct when it meets the target. A slower powder in a shorter barrel also means a lot of muzzle blast... most .30-30's have relatively shorter barrels.

I reload for the .348 Winchester, for my 20" Browning 71. Most load data suggests slower powders for that cartridge... when I started, I bought some H4831. In the 20" barrel, it sounded (and felt..) like an artillery piece going off, and I never really did get the velocity I expected. When I switched to cast bullets, I made a 180^ turn... and switched to IMR3031. Now I get good velocity, far less muzzle blast and recoil, better accuracy... all while using 1/3rd less powder by weight.

I have also loaded IMR4895 and IMR4064 in the .348, they did fine, too. If memory serves, I loaded IMR4895 in the .30-30 with jacketed bullets... where I'm sure it did fine or I would have remembered it. These days you 'run what you brung.' I'd go ahead and load up your 4895... you didn't mention what flavor, but I'm guessing you are talking IMR. I would start with the starting jacketed bullet charge unless you can find specific data for cast bullets... typically found in manuals like the Lyman and Lee, but probably available online if you search hard enough... it's how I found cast data for my .348.

Start with a clean bore... and watch for leading. You didn't mention what bullets you are using... how hard they are, and are they gas checked. Depending on the bullet to bore fit, you might see some leading, you might not.
 
Generally a faster propellant will bump up the base in a lead bullet faster and improve the accuracy by doing so. If you have gas checked bullets it will be less of an issue. The only way to know results for sure is to try what you have and if it shoots well great. I have used both propellants with a plain lead bullet in a model 94 and the 3031 loads were better preformers. Just sayin'
 
Charlie98 said:
I think bearleft meant those slower powders might launch that lead too fast.
Click to expand...

For your 168 RN's this could be a problem. Reduced charges of military pull-down 4895 was a staple for the old timers shooting cast bullets in their 03's in years gone by. But going below book minimums is not recommended with IMR4895 presently; Hogdgon recommends H4895 for reduced charges.
 
D.B. Cooper said:
It's highly unlikely that I will be able to procure enough, or even any, of the other powders in the next several years-that ship has sailed.)
Click to expand...
I wouldn't be so sure, I'd be willing to bet if you put your mind to it you could get whatever powder you want, either find a distributor that will let you back order it or one that will notify you when it comes in stock or do what I just did, couldn't find any h110 so I ordered it right from hodgdons - it came in 6 days . powder isn't the tough part right now.
 
Obturation said:
I wouldn't be so sure, I'd be willing to bet if you put your mind to it you could get whatever powder you want, either find a distributor that will let you back order it or one that will notify you when it comes in stock or do what I just did, couldn't find any h110 so I ordered it right from hodgdons - it came in 6 days . powder isn't the tough part right now.
Click to expand...

You guys forget that I live in AK; no internet, phone, mail ordering for us. Everything hazmat must come from a local retailer. No other choice or alternative. And that means, right now, and during shortages, that the shortge is extreme.
 
Charlie98 said:
I think bearleft meant those slower powders might launch that lead too fast.

The slower the powder, the more velocity it is likely to generate. The .30-30 has some things going for it where faster powders like IMR4198 and IMR3031 make more sense, including small case volume (say, compared to the .308, another .30 cartridge that works in the 150grn - 170grn bullet range, typically, but at much higher velocity, comparatively.) .30-30 bullets are also designed to perform at lower velocity, drive it too fast and it may destruct when it meets the target. A slower powder in a shorter barrel also means a lot of muzzle blast... most .30-30's have relatively shorter barrels.

I reload for the .348 Winchester, for my 20" Browning 71. Most load data suggests slower powders for that cartridge... when I started, I bought some H4831. In the 20" barrel, it sounded (and felt..) like an artillery piece going off, and I never really did get the velocity I expected. When I switched to cast bullets, I made a 180^ turn... and switched to IMR3031. Now I get good velocity, far less muzzle blast and recoil, better accuracy... all while using 1/3rd less powder by weight.

I have also loaded IMR4895 and IMR4064 in the .348, they did fine, too. If memory serves, I loaded IMR4895 in the .30-30 with jacketed bullets... where I'm sure it did fine or I would have remembered it. These days you 'run what you brung.' I'd go ahead and load up your 4895... you didn't mention what flavor, but I'm guessing you are talking IMR. I would start with the starting jacketed bullet charge unless you can find specific data for cast bullets... typically found in manuals like the Lyman and Lee, but probably available online if you search hard enough... it's how I found cast data for my .348.

Start with a clean bore... and watch for leading. You didn't mention what bullets you are using... how hard they are, and are they gas checked. Depending on the bullet to bore fit, you might see some leading, you might not.
Click to expand...

So sounds like I need to be trying minimum loads and velocities.

Projectiles are from Missouri Bullet Company. I don't recall the BHN, and MVC has discontinued almost their entire line up it seems, so I can't go look at their website to find out. It's not a GC projectile though.
 
FROGO207 said:
Generally a faster propellant will bump up the base in a lead bullet faster and improve the accuracy by doing so. If you have gas checked bullets it will be less of an issue. The only way to know results for sure is to try what you have and if it shoots well great. I have used both propellants with a plain lead bullet in a model 94 and the 3031 loads were better preformers. Just sayin'
Click to expand...
I can see how that makes sense. The sooner the lead is fully engaged in the rifling, the better.
 
D.B. Cooper said:
You guys forget that I live in AK; no internet, phone, mail ordering for us. Everything hazmat must come from a local retailer. No other choice or alternative. And that means, right now, and during shortages, that the shortge is extreme.
Click to expand...
Didn't know you were an Alaska guy. That does make it hard.
 
D.B. Cooper said:
You guys forget that I live in AK
Click to expand...

I didn't, that's why I know you are stuck using what you have on hand. ;)

A starting load of IMR4895 isn't the worst thing you can do... load em up, give em a try. Chances are it's around 18BHN, that seems to be the standard for commercial cast rifle bullets. It depends on what you are shooting them in... as I mentioned, bullet to bore fit is paramount, not necessarily hardness. I shoot non-gas checked bullets as high as 1800fps without problems, but I know they are properly sized for my bore... and I'm using IMR4198.
 
Clay Harvey used to write all the time about reduced loads with IMR4895. You can take your jacketed bullet load and reduce it down to 60% and start from there. And I like 4895 in my 30-30s. I liked it enough that I bought an 8 pound jug of 2495, Accurates answer to 4895 and used that in the 35 Rem I used to have and my 30-30s. I also used it to load some 243 loads and 7-08. Its a little fast for a good 243 but fine in the 7-08.

Veral Smith the famous bullet mold maker always recommended starting with 4198 for cast bullet loads if you can find any. Also Alliant reloader 7 is supposed to be a good cast bullet powder. Just because you don't see your powder listed in a load manual doesn't mean it won't work. It just means there is no way to test all the powders on the market. You might try asking this question on the castboolits forum or the marlinowners forum.

Here is the leverguns link. Look through there at some of the Glen fryxells load data and also Paco Kelleys articles for lead bullet loads.

.https://leverguns.com/articles/Default.htm
 
I was the one who listed the 30gr 4064 load @1935fps in the other thread. Got no help for lead as I don't shoot non-plated or lead bullets in mine.

I have gone down to 28.8 grains with acceptable accuracy. Didn't chrono them though. Good luck.
 
4198 has been my cast bullet go-to for 30-30, 308, and 30-06. I'm not going for max vel, just max accuracy.
 
4064 is not a good cast lead bullet powder. While 3031 can be used with 170 grs lead bullets, generally speaking, 4198 is the slowest powder that one would use effectively with lead bullets.
 
ThomasT said:
Clay Harvey used to write all the time about reduced loads with IMR4895. You can take your jacketed bullet load and reduce it down to 60% and start from there.
Click to expand...

You sure that wasn't H4895? Even Hodgdon says you can reduce to 60% with H... not IMR. They are not (yet) the same powder...

DocRock said:
While 3031 can be used with 170 grs lead bullets, generally speaking, 4198 is the slowest powder that one would use effectively with lead bullets.
Click to expand...

I think IMR4198 is an excellent powder for cast rifle bullets, but IMR3031 is pretty good, too... I use it with my .348WCF cast bullets, it works very well. I wouldn't hesitate to use IMR3031 if that's what I had.
 
Charlie98 said:
I didn't, that's why I know you are stuck using what you have on hand. ;)

A starting load of IMR4895 isn't the worst thing you can do... load em up, give em a try. Chances are it's around 18BHN, that seems to be the standard for commercial cast rifle bullets. It depends on what you are shooting them in... as I mentioned, bullet to bore fit is paramount, not necessarily hardness. I shoot non-gas checked bullets as high as 1800fps without problems, but I know they are properly sized for my bore... and I'm using IMR4198.
Click to expand...

Yeah, BHN 18 sounds about right. I know that is the hardness of my 200 grn 44 cal RNFP cast bullets from them. Also, I seem to recall reading, either at MBC or another website, or perhaps a manual, that 1600 fps is about the max for that particular cast lead bullet or caliber. (That might have been specifically for a BHN22 300 grn 44 cal projectile.)
 
If you could find some 170 grain JFP bullets things would be better.

Bumping the base up faster will cut back on the gas cutting on the sides of the bullet. This increases accuracy and stops the leading a lot.
 
H4895 and Reloader15 have been some of my best performing powders for cast in the .30-30.
I’m sure you’ll find a good load with either IMR4064 or 4895.
I suggest starting at 26.0gr and working up 1gr at a time to 30.0 with 4895, 32.0 with 4064.
Best accuracy is what you are looking for. Usually 1,900fps.

It’s called a .30-30 for a reason (hint hint....)

If loading for a Marlin, use .311” “boolits”.
 
Charlie98 said:
You sure that wasn't H4895? Even Hodgdon says you can reduce to 60% with H... not IMR. They are not (yet) the same powder...
Click to expand...

Absolutely positive. Just what I said. And this was way before hodgdon took over IMR powders. Like back in the 1990s.

Let me expand a little more. At the time I read Clay Harvey writing about using reduced loads I was surprised because most of his load recommendations were to get every last FPS from any load. Case life be damned. So his writing about reduced loads with IMR 4895 surprised me.

And also at the time I wouldn't consider even buying Hodgdon powders. I was a dyed in the wool IMR fan. I do have some Hodgdon powders on hand now, 4350 and 4895 in rifle and Titegroup, Lil Gun and Pyrodex. I had the Pyrodex before all the others. And I have the Hodgdon chart showing the reduced loads for 4895.

But to answer the OP the two powders he has on hand should work for lead bullet loads. And I would give the 4895 the first shot. I have a Brian Pearce article in Handloader and he wrote about his love of the 30-30 and also listed a couple of lead bullet loads. But I do not remember what he used but stated they were very quiet.

I did buy a Lee 170 gc mold I haven't tried yet but hopefully soon will do a casting run. I have around 6 new molds I want to cast some bullets in and thats one of the top molds I want to use. I would like to try some 30-30 loads and also some 30-06 in my old Remington 700 with a Williams peep site on the rear. I love how that rifle looks and feels in the hand without a scope on top of it. It was a real beater gun I got for $200 OTD that shoots in the one inch area with a scope and around 2" with open sights and my eyesight.
 
Last edited:
Here ya go. From one of the best sources you could ask for.

"The most flexible was 4895, whether IMR or Hodgdon. Handloaders found maximum charges could be reduced by nearly half and still result in consistently accurate ammunition. American Rifleman magazines from the 1950s often listed such loads, but more recently Hodgdon’s website stated only the most recent version of H-4895 should be used in loads reduced down to 60 percent of maximum. A few handloaders assumed this meant IMR-4895 wasn’t safe with loads reduced to 60 percent of maximum, so I called Ron Reiber at Hodgdon. He explained that they’d gotten slightly more consistent results with H-4895 in reduced loads, but IMR-4895 also worked with the 60 percent of maximum rule. This has been my experience since first using IMR-4895 in the late 1970s, when the 60 percent suggestion still appeared in various publications".

https://www.handloadermagazine.com/reduced-rifle-loads#:~:text=Charges of H-4895 and,257 Roberts, (4) .

And to be fair read here. I like post #19.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?329395-Imr-4895
 
Last edited:
Was given #8 of powder last year #2 of it being 4064 ($3.85 price tag on cans). Just started playing with it in a 308w, my lyman 50th edition lists a 165gr jacketed bullet with a starting load of 4064 39gr. I'm using a 165gr cast bullet, the xcb bullet, 10-shot groups @ 100yds.
JFXg89A.jpg

Left/29.gr load is 2 1/4" outside to outside edges of the holes
right 31gr load is 1 7/8" outside to outside edges of the holes

Haven't chronographed anything yet but this load/bullet combo should be doing 2500fps+/- out of my 30" bbl'd 308w Not bad for 40+ year old powder and mixed nato cases.

When using loads with less than 85% case capacity I use a filler on top of the powder. Dacron batting is what I use cutting it into 1/4" by 1/4" squares and then pulling it (lofting) to expand it before putting it over the powder in the case. Dryer lint will work for a filler. Just make sure whatever you use isn't "packed down" in the case.

The 30-30 is an excellent choice for cast bullets with the llllooooooonnnnnnngggggg neck that keeps the case of the bullet out of the boiler room along with excellent neck tension.

What you need to do is find out what the rate of twist of your rifle is and use 140,000rpm's as the max velocity when looking for starting loads.

1 in 10 twist ='s 1950fps
1 in 12 twist ='s 2325fps
1 in 14 twist ='s 2725fps

Can cast bullets be pushed over the 140,000rpm/velocities listed above for those rate of twists????
Absolutely, but it usually takes specific bullet designs and tweaks special alloys. Those #'s listed above simply gives the reloader a place to start. Keep your initial test loads under those velocities and it will save you a lot of head scratching.

Anyway start low use fillers and if it was me I'd give those bullets a coat of lee liquid lube or a coat of johnson's paste wax. The extra lube will make sure you're sealing the bore/getting consistent results.
 
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