30-30 Reloading - IMR 4895

[doublejz]

So with the issues with finding ammo I decided to pull all my reloading stuff out and make a couple boxes. I found some IMR 4895 since that what I had written in my reloading notes.


Now my notes show 34.5 grains of IMR4895. Looking in my old Lyman Reloading Handbook 44th Edition shows that IMR 4895, 150 grain jacketed is 33-36.



However, looking at Hodgdon Reloading Data Center it shows 31.5-33.5 grain of IMR 4895


I know I have reloaded hundreds if not thousands of 30-30 using this powered at 34.5-35. My concern is why did it change? Is the powder different now then it used to be? Are the barrels not as strong and won't handle the pressure. I mean The Reloading book even states that 35 grains is the factory duplication load.



Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated as I already reloaded a box and not sure if I need to pull them or not.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Lyman's tested a generic, unspecified .308" 150gr. jacketed bullet - soft point? flat point? spire point? who knows! - in a Stevens Mdl. 325 bolt-action rifle and those loads gave those velocities in that set of tests. They didn't use Universal receivers and copper-crushers or test barrels with piezo-electric strain gauges to check the pressure. They observed and used experience. Note that Hodgdon's data is specific to the Sierra 150gr. JFNSP bullet and uses the most modern technology to measure every aspect of the combustion process.

Your loads are time-tested and ought to be fine. The powders haven't changed, the testing methods have, and so have the projectiles. Sierra makes a darned good bullet! Much better than they did in 1968. Even if the bullet tested in '68 (I think that's when the 44th was published???) was a 150gr. Sierra No. 2000 JFNSP (the No.2000 bullet was introduced in 1959), it's not the same bullet you'll buy today. The SKU and name might be the same but Sierra's bonding and jacket technology is much better.

Remember, the modern pressure-tested loading data is more precise than the older data but it hasn't necessarily been tested by time - or by your rifle - and, IMHO it's much a safer to stay with what you know works.

 

[25-20 WCF]

The OP (and apparently others) need to realize that not all lots of the same powder will give identical results. Differences in velocity - and thus relative pressures - can and usually will be seen, sometimes significant differences. The technicians who developed the Lyman and Hodgdon manuals used different lots of powder, so it would be quite surprising if they achieved identical results. This is borne out when reloaders compare loading data between most all cartridges across different manuals. When you add in a fifty year gap between powder lots and the different powder plants which produced the “same” powder over those years, differences like the OP observed are guaranteed.

Here is a brief study of ballistic differences between powder lots of the “same” powder.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1501.07163.pdf



.

 

[Charlie98]

My concern is why did it change?

Newer and more precise testing methods.

Looking at my books... Speer #14 gives me 27-31grn, Hodgdon gives 32-34grn (the Hodgdon book is quite old.) Note that the online Hodgdon data is still in CUP, not PSI, so that data itself is older, too. They likely used different bullets as well... Speer with the Speer bullet, certainly, the Hodgdon book data does not list the bullet tested.

I would say you are right at the top of your load data, assuming you are using the same bullet you used previously, you should be OK, but the cautious me tells me to reduce to at a minimum 34grn.

Plugging that data into QuickLoad, with the Hornady 150grn bullet, 34.5grn IMR4895 shows over pressure, 34grn does not.

 

[25-20 WCF]

Hodgdon states that they used the Sierra 150 FN bullet to develop their online data, maybe a different bullet than they used years ago, maybe not. They also loaded 11% below the SAAMI MAP of 38,000 cup, why we don’t know. It pays to read loading data carefully.


.

 

[Bazoo]

The old data is likely over pressure somewhat. Guns don't explode being just a bit over pressure. If your pressure is 40,000cup (meant cup but said psi the first go round) then you wouldn't be able to tell it was over, and the gun would continue to hold but take more wear to the bearing surfaces.

 

[Slamfire]

With a 30-30, take your chronograph to the range and adjust your loads that way.

After studying things over and shooting a 150 factory round, I came to the conclusion that a 150 grain bullet ought to leave a 20" lever action around 2,250 to 2,300 fps.




150 gr Core-Lokt SP Remington Factory
29 Dec 2011 T = 56 °F

Ave Vel = 2253
Std Dev = 13
ES = 31
High = 2268
Low = 2237
N = 7

Now in so far as powder charge weight, if only all chambers were cut with SAAMI dimensioned reamers, life would be so much easier. From what I can tell, Marlin used a bratwurst to ream my chamber. The chamber on my Marlin 336 is huge!



See how far above the No Go line the base of a fired 30-30 case went? That tells me Marlin more or less ignored the base to shoulder distance, or cut the shoulder so far forward, that owners who never clean their rifles, would still have the things function, even if a rat built a nest in the chamber!

(I am barely joking. Just read gunsmith comments on how often 30-30 lever actions were cleaned by their customers. Like never)

That huge of a chamber meant, I had to add powder in volumes way above the loading manual values.

This is with a 170 grain bullet, AA2520 was blended by Accurate Arms to duplicate the pressure curve of IMR 4895 (in the 308 Win I think) and look how much powder I am putting in the case to reach my velocity goal of 2150 to 2200 fps.





by the way IMR 3031 is a great powder for a 30-30, but don't copy my loads, as my powder charges are way above the manual values



So, don't fret about a half a grain difference in one reloading manual. Your chamber is different, your gun is different, just go to the range and develop your 30-30 loads to a velocity range. If pressures are too high, you will see things. What I experienced was unlocking of the lever with the breech bolt slightly open. That was when to quit. I shot over 500 rounds in load development and was very disappointed I could not get the velocity I wanted with AA5744, which is a great cast bullet powder. Unfortunately, pressure indications reached max before the velocities reached my goals.

After 500 rounds in load development, I came to the conclusion a 30-30 is at best a 2 MOA thing at 100 yards, and a 3 MOA thing at 200 yards.





and don't shoot at anything beyond 200 yards,



Of course, after load development, like all the other internet posters, you can lie with conviction about how you have sub MOA 30-30 based on three shot groups.

 

[Armored farmer]

With a 30-30, take your chronograph to the range and adjust your loads that way.

After studying things over and shooting a 150 factory round, I came to the conclusion that a 150 grain bullet ought to leave a 20" lever action around 2,250 to 2,300 fps.

View attachment 1039858


150 gr Core-Lokt SP Remington Factory
29 Dec 2011 T = 56 °F

Ave Vel = 2253
Std Dev = 13
ES = 31
High = 2268
Low = 2237
N = 7

Now in so far as powder charge weight, if only all chambers were cut with SAAMI dimensioned reamers, life would be so much easier. From what I can tell, Marlin used a bratwurst to ream my chamber. The chamber on my Marlin 336 is huge!

View attachment 1039859

See how far above the No Go line the base of a fired 30-30 case went? That tells me Marlin more or less ignored the base to shoulder distance, or cut the shoulder so far forward, that owners who never clean their rifles, would still have the things function, even if a rat built a nest in the chamber!

(I am barely joking. Just read gunsmith comments on how often 30-30 lever actions were cleaned by their customers. Like never)

That huge of a chamber meant, I had to add powder in volumes way above the loading manual values.

This is with a 170 grain bullet, AA2520 was blended by Accurate Arms to duplicate the pressure curve of IMR 4895 (in the 308 Win I think) and look how much powder I am putting in the case to reach my velocity goal of 2150 to 2200 fps.

View attachment 1039860

View attachment 1039861

by the way IMR 3031 is a great powder for a 30-30, but don't copy my loads, as my powder charges are way above the manual values

View attachment 1039862

So, don't fret about a half a grain difference in one reloading manual. Your chamber is different, your gun is different, just go to the range and develop your 30-30 loads to a velocity range. If pressures are too high, you will see things. What I experienced was unlocking of the lever with the breech bolt slightly open. That was when to quit. I shot over 500 rounds in load development and was very disappointed I could not get the velocity I wanted with AA5744, which is a great cast bullet powder. Unfortunately, pressure indications reached max before the velocities reached my goals.

After 500 rounds in load development, I came to the conclusion a 30-30 is at best a 2 MOA thing at 100 yards, and a 3 MOA thing at 200 yards.

View attachment 1039863

View attachment 1039864

and don't shoot at anything beyond 200 yards,

View attachment 1039865

Of course, after load development, like all the other internet posters, you can lie with conviction about how you have sub MOA 30-30 based on three shot groups.

Excellent info!
I think I'll just send my as yet unfired SRC, and a bag of my cast bullets to @Slamfire and have him develop a load for me!

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

With a 30-30, take your chronograph to the range and adjust your loads that way.

After studying things over and shooting a 150 factory round, I came to the conclusion that a 150 grain bullet ought to leave a 20" lever action around 2,250 to 2,300 fps.

View attachment 1039858


150 gr Core-Lokt SP Remington Factory
29 Dec 2011 T = 56 °F

Ave Vel = 2253
Std Dev = 13
ES = 31
High = 2268
Low = 2237
N = 7

Now in so far as powder charge weight, if only all chambers were cut with SAAMI dimensioned reamers, life would be so much easier. From what I can tell, Marlin used a bratwurst to ream my chamber. The chamber on my Marlin 336 is huge!

View attachment 1039859

See how far above the No Go line the base of a fired 30-30 case went? That tells me Marlin more or less ignored the base to shoulder distance, or cut the shoulder so far forward, that owners who never clean their rifles, would still have the things function, even if a rat built a nest in the chamber!

(I am barely joking. Just read gunsmith comments on how often 30-30 lever actions were cleaned by their customers. Like never)

That huge of a chamber meant, I had to add powder in volumes way above the loading manual values.

This is with a 170 grain bullet, AA2520 was blended by Accurate Arms to duplicate the pressure curve of IMR 4895 (in the 308 Win I think) and look how much powder I am putting in the case to reach my velocity goal of 2150 to 2200 fps.

View attachment 1039860

View attachment 1039861

by the way IMR 3031 is a great powder for a 30-30, but don't copy my loads, as my powder charges are way above the manual values

View attachment 1039862

So, don't fret about a half a grain difference in one reloading manual. Your chamber is different, your gun is different, just go to the range and develop your 30-30 loads to a velocity range. If pressures are too high, you will see things. What I experienced was unlocking of the lever with the breech bolt slightly open. That was when to quit. I shot over 500 rounds in load development and was very disappointed I could not get the velocity I wanted with AA5744, which is a great cast bullet powder. Unfortunately, pressure indications reached max before the velocities reached my goals.

After 500 rounds in load development, I came to the conclusion a 30-30 is at best a 2 MOA thing at 100 yards, and a 3 MOA thing at 200 yards.

View attachment 1039863

View attachment 1039864

and don't shoot at anything beyond 200 yards,

View attachment 1039865

Of course, after load development, like all the other internet posters, you can lie with conviction about how you have sub MOA 30-30 based on three shot groups.

You had me spitting tonic and lime out of my nose with that bratwurst comment but, yeah, you’re dead right. Marlin makes sure their rifles will chamber a round with the action clogged with mud.

 

[lordpaxman]

@doublejz, welcome to THR!

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated as I already reloaded a box and not sure if I need to pull them or not.

If it were me I wouldn’t pull them. If you’re concerned, put that box aside, clearly labeled, and load a small ladder working up to that load. My 4895 load is very close to yours in order to get 2200 and that’s in the Uber Bratwurst Marlin 336.
Good luck.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

@doublejz, welcome to THR!



If it were me I wouldn’t pull them. If you’re concerned, put that box aside, clearly labeled, and load a small ladder working up to that load. My 4895 load is very close to yours in order to get 2200 and that’s in the Uber Bratwurst Marlin 336.
Good luck.

"Uber Bratwurst Marlin" LOL!!!

I think maybe a lot - if not most - seasonal hunters don't really care about how expanded their brass is because they just leave it on the ground like cigarette butts.

When I bought my first No.1 Mk.III* Lee-Enfield I told the dealer I was looking forward to reloading for it. He gave me a look like I'd grown a second head and asked why? There was tons of surplus on the market - CHEAP! - and every major box ammo maker sold a good enough hunting bullet in .303 so, why would I bother reloading? It was hard to explain but I got it. Picked up a Lee Loader setup and neck-sized my ammo, used the whack-a-mole to make lots of ammo for that old warhorse, figured out IMR 4895, IMR 3031 and IMR 4064 - same powders I used for '06 - worked real good in the British round with Sierra's 180 RNSP. Then bought a No.4 Mk.2 when I got into classic rifle shooting - oops! NONE of my reloads would even chamber! And the factory ammo was go-bang but not real accurate. Time to buy a full-length resizer!

Enfield deliberately spec'd the SMLE chambers so they'd work even if clogged with mud. Evidently, Marlin and Stevens picked up the same habit. Some guns are just like that. Some aren't. Lesson learned!

 

[Slamfire]

Let me mention one other Bratwurst Marlin problem: bullet jump. The maximum cartridge length that can be ejected from my Marlin is 2.550”. You can feed a longer round, but to eject a longer round the bolt has to be partially retracted and then the lever screw removed, the lever removed, and then the bolt removed. Not a very practical thing to do away from a bench and your screwdrivers. Why this is important, is after shooting 500 test rounds, I finally tried to find a bullet seating depth. I had to buy one of those Sinclair, now Hornady 30-30 bullet seating cases. https://www.brownells.com/reloading...ols/lock-n-load-modified-cases-prod32817.aspx

After I did measured the distance forward to the throat, I found the bullet touched the throat when the cartridge OAL was a half inch above the max case length of 2.550”! Any bullet would have a minimum of a half inch jump before it touched the rifling!

And that put paid to why this Marlin won’t shoot cast bullets. This is also an exercise in how small sample size hides things that show up in big sample sizes.


Tried a low velocity cast lead bullet charge, not so great, but appears to hold 3 to 4 MOA at 100 yards



Go up a bit more in velocity, still OK, just ignore the “wild shots”



Clearly blown group



One decade later, at the low velocity “good group”, twenty + shots. And not all on paper!



I had been making elevation changes, thinking the high or low shots could be corrected, and they could not. This thing sprays cast bullets. And I am of the opinion the half inch bullet jump is the reason, those cast bullets are probably entering the throat bent, or sideways, and leave the barrel in twisted configurations.

Another reason in print gunwriters shoot three shot groups, and toss out the bad shots.

 

[Bazoo]

And all this time I thought they used a summer sausage...

I'm using 3031 with a 31141. 28 grains gives me what I want with my winchester 94, but that's a grain over what the Lyman manual suggests. It does give decent groups, and matches pretty close to factory ammo poi.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Let me mention one other Bratwurst Marlin problem: bullet jump. The maximum cartridge length that can be ejected from my Marlin is 2.550”. You can feed a longer round, but to eject a longer round the bolt has to be partially retracted and then the lever screw removed, the lever removed, and then the bolt removed. Not a very practical thing to do away from a bench and your screwdrivers. Why this is important, is after shooting 500 test rounds, I finally tried to find a bullet seating depth. I had to buy one of those Sinclair, now Hornady 30-30 bullet seating cases. https://www.brownells.com/reloading...ols/lock-n-load-modified-cases-prod32817.aspx

After I did measured the distance forward to the throat, I found the bullet touched the throat when the cartridge OAL was a half inch above the max case length of 2.550”! Any bullet would have a minimum of a half inch jump before it touched the rifling!

And that put paid to why this Marlin won’t shoot cast bullets. This is also an exercise in how small sample size hides things that show up in big sample sizes.


Tried a low velocity cast lead bullet charge, not so great, but appears to hold 3 to 4 MOA at 100 yards

View attachment 1039975

Go up a bit more in velocity, still OK, just ignore the “wild shots”

View attachment 1039976

Clearly blown group

View attachment 1039977

One decade later, at the low velocity “good group”, twenty + shots. And not all on paper!

View attachment 1039978

I had been making elevation changes, thinking the high or low shots could be corrected, and they could not. This thing sprays cast bullets. And I am of the opinion the half inch bullet jump is the reason, those cast bullets are probably entering the throat bent, or sideways, and leave the barrel in twisted configurations.

Another reason in print gunwriters shoot three shot groups, and toss out the bad shots.

I got a suggestion if you care to test it out: the heavier the bullet and the tighter the crimp with IMR 3031 in moderate, mid-range loads - under 1750fps - the better the group. I’m not sure I can even explain it, and fully admit it could just be my rifles - but a 18 BHN waxed and gas checked 180gr flat nose will group inside a palm print fairly consistent. I have one of the 1980’s CS models which may or may not matter.

 

[joneb]

Imr XBR 8208 has worked well for me with 150gr RN in the 30-30 win.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...tqwywytyjqzns1hywfhywfhywfhyweifq-jpg.834901/

 

[Roverguy]

If the older data is a bit hot, you will likely start getting case head separations after a few firings. It’s not the end of the world if you do, and judicious sizing may avoid it in any event, but that will let you know it’s a good idea to back off a bit in your rifle if you do.